Should You Practice Jazz with a Metronome?

[Theo Verelst]

Sure.

 

It never hurts to be able to remain locked to a good working metronome, hopefully it will resound through your practice space better than some computer blips, so that the tightness of timing borders on the absolute.

 

However, not just swing, also chord timing, rhythm interpretation, and long term hanging in or pulling the groove need to be calculated. Some modern "tight" stuff hurts my audio feelings because I can easily hear if that one phasing should have skipped half a sample in a 1/4th note, and always getting tied to the samples makes any normal room/hall reverberation sound like dogshit for sure.

 

Also, long term averages must come out right, which was done very strong in the 50s, better than anything, probably. Also, the Jazz of old is probably quite accurate, and linked with other musical properties like the tone sin a chord, the attack type of a brass instrument, etc. etc.

 

T

[Jazzwee]

I just listened to Hal Galper - Airegin Revisited - snippet on iTunes and it's almost a whole different concept. It sounds like they're weaving in and out of time and join back together again.

 

So if I understand what they're doing, it's like re-establishing a pulse at any point. Or maybe some pulse (but not metronome exact) is being felt and they just converge on it.

 

Maybe I would interpret it as a "conversation about time".

 

It's interesting because it's like playing tension and release with time instead of harmony.

 

 

[timwat]

I'm not qualified to declare whether Longo is right or wrong - or, if the real answer needs to be so binary ("it's either a one or a zero, boys").

 

What I have found personally is metronome exposes flaws in my ability to maintain fluidity. And working up continuous scales at faster clicks continues to help me.

 

But that's only one tool in the tool box, and I'm starting to realize (apart from this article) that 2/4 metronome exposes and helps me attack one flaw in my playing, but it doesn't correct bad, inconsistent or soulless swinging.

 

That I'm still working on, but it seems easier for me to work on that apart from the metronome. Or maybe I'm completely wrong there.

You said whether MIKE LONGO is wrong or right... then mentioned dichotomous binary thinking.. an aside. The fact is this is DIZZY, and BIRD not so much Mike. Mike is an humble disciple of these giants.

 

Umm....okay. All I was trying to respond to was the article Jazzwee posted. I've no first-hand knowledge of Dizzy or Bird advocating eschewing the metronome, so I can't comment intelligently on that.

 

For me, I feel my current teacher is a fine instructor who has helped my playing immensely in a very short period of time. I'm going to keep practicing as he tells me to practice. And metronome work is part of it.

 

My comment about us not needing to take binary thinking on the topic was really not intended as an aside...and I think the direction this thread has taken sort of bears that out.

[Jazz+]

http://www.amazon.com/Airegin-Revisited-Hal-Galper-Trio/dp/B0097REO6I

 

Galper's 'Aerigin' ... they are playing loosely over a half time pulse and then they go double time swing.

[Bridog6996]

Grains of salt all around. Just because someone has an impressive resume doesn't mean everything they say is a universal truth. It's an interesting take, and while I agree that phrasing is of utmost importance, I have to respectfully disagree that using a metronome is a bad thing (although I would say that one should practice without a metronome more than with it). I certainly would have a hard time advocating this approach to a beginner to intermediate player at any rate. At the very least, it teaches you to use your ears to reference an outside source of time and adjust accordingly. You put a bunch of cats together in a room who have never practiced with a metronome and it's probably gonna sound like shit.

[Jazzwee]

I had to reread what Longo said and got a better sense of what he means.

 

I don't think he's advocating that Metronome practice is useless. Just like you said Bridog6996, he acknowledges its value in teaching one to develop the sense of time for a beginner (although he sounds a bit extreme saying he was done with that by age 4).

 

What I got out of rereading is that he's talking about the ability to stretch (rubato) the time between two longer distances and I guess he's implying that this skill doesn't get developed when mechanically doing metronome practice. And I gather that's what Hal Galper is talking about too.

 

Now I don't know what the heck this has to do with Longo's afro-rhythms and what that has to with swing.

 

As a rule, Classical pianists also disdain the use of a metronome other than for getting an idea of tempo and of course the reason given is rubato feel. I just never thought this will be an element of swing. No specifics to be gotten from that.

 

I know we drag our position in the beat constantly but I'm always thinking of that in relation to a presumed fixed beat of a rhythm section pulse. I for one, constantly practice where I want to be on a beat. I think it's an important aspect of swing articulation. But I tend to think of this as short distance rubato (quarter note to half note maybe).

 

Anyway, I was trying to take a neutral position here in the interest of getting educated but perhaps the topic is to extremist in people's mind for anyone to take a supporting stance to Longo/Galper.

 

I suppose it runs against the grain of most people's training.

[Theo Verelst]

So what idiom is a counter-rhythm and a "pulse" rhythm going to be measured against in the minds of the listeners and fellow musicians ? And what shall the meanings be of a lazy back beat, a 16 triplet slightly before the 4th, or a pronounced 2 ?

 

I mean all rhythms probably are ok, but not all are particularly useful, and some probably are more an attempt to obfuscate rather than to present a performer character.

 

I you can play a reggae, rumba and a rock mambo, ad a few difficult Jazz examples (Blakey, Chambers, Gadd), have the ability to perfectly keep metronome timing, or deviate in strict and per-determined ways, THEN you're more credible if you want to say "let's add some Babatunde drums" or something, than when you sit behind a geek desk with not too much ability and want to dictate the new world rhythms.

 

[Jazzwee]

So what idiom is a counter-rhythm and a "pulse" rhythm going to be measured against in the minds of the listeners and fellow musicians ? And what shall the meanings be of a lazy back beat, a 16 triplet slightly before the 4th, or a pronounced 2 ?

 

I mean all rhythms probably are ok, but not all are particularly useful, and some probably are more an attempt to obfuscate rather than to present a performer character.

 

I you can play a reggae, rumba and a rock mambo, ad a few difficult Jazz examples (Blakey, Chambers, Gadd), have the ability to perfectly keep metronome timing, or deviate in strict and per-determined ways, THEN you're more credible if you want to say "let's add some Babatunde drums" or something, than when you sit behind a geek desk with not too much ability and want to dictate the new world rhythms.

 

The answer to your question is very simple: DOES IT SWING?

 

[Theo Verelst]

[mmartinez]

Certainly a new view -- Mike Longo says No.

 

http://www.mikelongojazz.com/should-you-practice-jazz-with-a-metronome/

 

 

He's got a point there, it's hard to feel it if it's not swinging.

[Moon Zero Two]

does band in a box count as a metronome? I do a lot of my practising with that or a metronome.

 

ps - a great exercise from a teacher for feeling swing was to clap along with a metronome - it clicks on 1 and 3 and you clap on 2 and 4. Then shift to a triplet feel where the metronome is clicking on the 1 of the triplet and you are are clapping on the 3 of the triplet. That exercise kicked my butt for a while.

[nadroj]

Practicing with a metronome doesn't mean you become a robot, it helps you focus and play to a beat.

 

If playing in time isn't a skill you possess and you're unable to slot into the beat while playing live then you can't possibly expect to fit into the groove and synchronise with other players while playing live in a jazz setting.

 

And when it comes to soloing, I'm sorry, but when listening to a band live you can tell straight away who practices their licks and runs to a metronome and who doesn't. If you got two players together playing the same ascending 16th run, one who practiced to a metronome and one who practiced without, it would be like night and day. To each their own I know, but I find the playing of those who do much more clean. For years I didn't, and I'm still recovering from it. I listen back to players and myself live, and I always used to think "I'm playing similar runs to then, but how do they sound so clean and sharp, while I just sound like I'm playing notes?" It was because I didn't practice to a metronome while my peers did.

 

My teacher showed me his transcription of an Oscar Peterson solo and explained that he spent weeks trying to play this one part. He had the notes spot on but couldn't get it sounding like it did on the track. After switching the metronome on, he eventually realised that he was putting the emphasis of a single note on the wrong beat. He changed that one little thing and played it to the metronome and it sounded like a completely different solo, even though the notes and rhythm stayed the same.

 

So I must respectfully disagree!

[16251]

I use iRealbook app which is a simple music minus one. I'd say anyone can benefit playing 20 choruses with bass/drums, even if they sound as lame as lame can be.

[Jazzwee]

When you actually record yourself playing iRealB, that's when you realize that darn machine like beat doesn't swing.

 

And this is the complaint of some who look for an alternative. So they just use the Metronome as a way to imagine a rhythm section. Now I don't have that kind of imagination so I'm stuck with iRealB or BIAB Real Instruments.

 

Here's a video where Mike Wolff talks about time and swing at around 45:30 and about the tension of the bass and drums pulling against each other. And he said "obviously if you're doing jazz your not using a metronome unless you're doing a film score". Then he proceeds to talk about rhythmic tension.

 

[video:youtube]

[Malpaugh]

Geoff Keezer sounds pretty darn good playing his examples with a metronome on this month's Keyboard Magazine Soundcloud.

[Jazz+]

The iReal book sounds so un-swinging because the bass and the ride cymbal are quantized... It's much less of a swing problem because the pulse is quantized too - see Keezer swing with a metronome click. Aebersold, obviously, is a far superior play along than iReal or Band in Box.

[GovernorSilver]

And this is the complaint of some who look for an alternative. So they just use the Metronome as a way to imagine a rhythm section.

 

The Victor Wooten video lesson that was posted earlier is the best that I've seen on how to use a metronome to practice your swing feel... and wean yourself off the metronome.

 

My plan with iReal B is to export MIDI to a DAW, then gradually replace the song parts with my own playing. Granted, I'm not going to play drum parts or bass lines as good as the players on some Aebersold playalongs (never mind the classic recordings!) but I find that I learn a tune more deeply this way.

 

Sure nothing beats playing with live humans, but I'm glad we have the tools to be able to practice at any time on our own, instead of being dependent on other players' schedules.

[objectguru]

If you are practicing Jazz with a metronome - the metronome beats should be on "2" and "4" like the drummers Hi-Hat. This works well for practicing Swing at fast tempos. And it keeps you honest :-)

[GovernorSilver]

If you are practicing Jazz with a metronome - the metronome beats should be on "2" and "4" like the drummers Hi-Hat. This works well for practicing Swing at fast tempos. And it keeps you honest :-)

 

The Victor Wooten lesson addresses this and much more. The video is only 10 min. long, yet packs a lot of valuable information on how to use the metronome to improve your swing and funk time, and eventually get off the metronome.

[I-missRichardTee]

You swingers know better than these guys.

These are Mike's generation more or less, or older. So you really think music swings typically today this much.. say that James Moody solo? And you think that Mike is in the dark about the practices ( eg with without a metronome ) of his close buds Moody and Dizzy? They had a close relationship.

If you redefine what swing is, sure then anything goes... and I suppose that's the way it is here in this ever changing world. So ignore Victor W ( who said remove dependence on it ) Hal, Mike, and by extension the boys on this here track. And a host of other composers players in one of these articles on metronome... aka don't use it much.

The freaking iconic man who brought be bop to you all, youall upstarts! That would be Dizzy. Sorry but I love these guys... I don't sense enough respect for them, in general.. including enough respect for past Lions, Oscar and Louis A.

I used to ask Mike questions.. I had my doubts about metronome and had many questions.. little by little I saw the value of what Dizzy taught to Mike. But DIzzy was his mnetor till the very end. Such a lack of insight here.. you all don't get who Dizzy and Bird were. James Moody encompasses more traditions in that short solo. I seldom hear that sort of depth today. Mike says absorb the tradition ( paraphrasing Stravinsky ) before your "new" music. I don't hear enough absorption of be bop..and be bop was "up start music" to the music that preceded it.. the further you move away from 1930- 1960 the more you move away from swing. From Louis, to Lester to Bird.. this music ought not be ignored... I don't mean the heads, I mean the nature of the swing.. obviously Louis's drummers were different than Max Roach but there was some thread there. I try to play with many ( not all ) modern drummers and they lose me when they solo. they seem to think it unfashionable to identify a common pulse in any way. If they are losing me, guess what they are losing audiences to, hip hop.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

Er, what?

 

"The freaking iconic man who brought be bop to you all, youall upstarts! That would be Dizzy."

 

OT, but Monk would dispute that.

 

"I don't sense enough respect for them, in general.. including Oscar and Louis A."

"Such a lack of insight here.. you all don't get who Dizzy and Bird were."

 

Really??? I must admit that these statements anger me so much I won't say anything more about them...

 

I know a guy who played with and recorded with Dizzy too, and he totally disagrees with Mike.

 

Lastly, I-missRichardTee, there's a video of Richard Tee that's been posted here before that's a great master class. Guess what he said about playing with a metronome?

[16251]

I think learning jazz is very personal and it's appropriate to constantly add and subtract practice habits, trying to learn from as many points of view as you can find (or care to find.) Some weeks I try to make sure I play with some type of time keeping, other weeks I never have time (no pun,) cause I'm spending it working on voicings, transcriptions, etc.

 

Another great argument we can have is: Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery concepts.

[Jazz+]

"One of the key teaching tools used by Tristano was the metronome. In practicing fundamentals such as scales, the student would set the metronome at or near to its slowest setting and play the scales and arpeggios in a legato fashion covering the full range of their instrument with very even dynamics. Developing a strong awareness of the beat was a key element of his teaching philosophy."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennie_Tristano

 

I have at times used a metronome on 2 and 4. I get depressed when I do it because I rush. It [playing with a metronome on 2 and 4] does help. - Michael Brecker

 

 

[Jazz+]

Jazz vibraphonist and longtime Berklee educator Gary Burton suggests practicing with a metronome in order to develop a steady sense of pulse.

 

[Jazz+]

dbl post

[Jazz+]

"I thought some people might be interested in comments by George Duke in an interview by Michael Berkeley on BBC's "Private Passions". MB asked Duke if he had a naturally good sense of time. Duke said, basically, no, when he started out he was a "rusher" and had to practice "many, many hours" with a metronome before he developed an even sense of time. He then used that as a basis for the less even sense of time he needed to swing, something that he said could be instinctive but could also be learnt."

[zephonic]

Lastly, I-missRichardTee, there's a video of Richard Tee that's been posted here before that's a great master class. Guess what he said about playing with a metronome?

 

Starts around 6:10

 

[video:youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tNehnI-2GsE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtNehnI-2GsE

[Jazzwee]

Something mentioned here that I want to comment on.

 

It was mentioned that to be even in playing sixteenths, that you would rely on metronome practice. Now, as I've said here, I'm trying to keep to the middle ground here as to the ideas on metronome practice and No metronome practice.

 

However, in my experience, the only way to clean up playing sixteenths is to play it extremely slowly and (slower than a metronome) and study each finger and just listen for the un-evenness. I don't know what metronome practice will do here.

 

Classical pianists with perfect scale runs don't do it with a metronome click.

 

I think there are separate issues here and it's all being mixed up. This is what I understand so far.

 

Metronomes are useful to develop your own sense of pulse. I don't think there's any dispute there. I think it is important to note the the Wooten practice is used to develop your own pulse since the idea is to put gaps so you subdivide by yourself. When I did this kind of practice year's back, it was at metronome tempos of 40bpm.

 

Metronomes are disputed as good tools in jazz because within a range of time, the rhythm section will pull and push against each other and cause variations that affect swing feel. In my case, at 40bpm, there's certainly room there to do some rubato between beats if necessary. But clearly, knowing to feel the pulse while leaving the current rhythm and then being able to come back is very important. I can see that this is not part of metronome practice.

 

Now here seems to be the crux of it, as Tee suggests. A lot of modern players play mostly sixteenths and those are just completely even like classical. So those types of players will completely like the metronome and swing becomes a less important element.

 

Personally, I've had several teachers and one was very strict with metronome practice and one only had me do it to develop my own pulse (the 40bpm practice) but never relied on it again. Instead it was about playing together and adjusting to each other's time.

 

Since both of these teachers are top-notch players, I'd have to say that for me the jury is out and it's probably best to practice both ways.

 

[Joe Muscara]

Lastly, I-missRichardTee, there's a video of Richard Tee that's been posted here before that's a great master class. Guess what he said about playing with a metronome?

 

Starts around 6:10

Thanks!

[I-missRichardTee]

Grains of salt all around. Just because someone has an impressive resume doesn't mean everything they say is a universal truth. It's an interesting take, and while I agree that phrasing is of utmost importance, I have to respectfully disagree that using a metronome is a bad thing (although I would say that one should practice without a metronome more than with it). I certainly would have a hard time advocating this approach to a beginner to intermediate player at any rate. At the very least, it teaches you to use your ears to reference an outside source of time and adjust accordingly. You put a bunch of cats together in a room who have never practiced with a metronome and it's probably gonna sound like shit.

 

I had said that I personally don't want to be hard headed about 'to metro or not to metro, whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of bad time, or to take arms against a sea of swinging troubles, and by opposing, end them. Whether to follow King Werner or Victor of Wooten, or be an idol worshipper of dead heroes like Diz and Tristano, tis all very vexing. For conscience doth make cowards of us all when we compare our groove to our heroes'. I give up fellows, do what you will !!