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Should You Practice Jazz with a Metronome?


Jazzwee

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Certainly a new view -- Mike Longo says No.

 

http://www.mikelongojazz.com/should-you-practice-jazz-with-a-metronome/

 

I could certainly be dismissive of the comment as I expect most to be. But Mike Longo is no slouch. So it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

 

 

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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No offense, but many are. I studied with Mike, admire his knowledge... asked him many times about the topic. He would say music comes not from metronomic time but from heart.. he also mentioned a more subtle idea he learned from Dizzy, that the music invites you into it, not you making the music.. this is a spiritual idea.

Metronomic playing is not what most of the people we admire used to develop. To not be hard headed about it... use the metronome a little.. but ALWAYS play YOUR heartbeat too. When you are on a gig, there IS no metronome.. most of the time.. thankfully btw.

Again most of the music we love was NOT using a click track. I have had arguments in another forum about it, to no avail. So compromise, but develop your own sense, on your own. Play along with recordings that are especially exciting to you rhythmically speaking. But to give advice on a worldwide forum, is difficult.. because who knows who is reading this, and what their taste is , and their development. Just remember the groovingest recordings and performances did NOT use a metronome. And most of those players did not rely heavily on one for groove purposes. Just to play an etude, or to mark progress on speeding up slowly an exercise... but not for advanced musical purposes.

Reflecting on this further.. I am old enough to recall the gradual advent of metronome craze. I am thinking Lennie Tristano was behind this. I am not a fan of the little bit of playing of his that I heard. I played a few times with one of his "disciples" who told me he practiced with a metronome 8 hrs a day, he played drums very evenly and softly. I don't know how exciting a player he was, but he sure had steady time. But I am still skeptical of sole reliance on one.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I'm certainly not a Jazz player or of any caliber to give instruction, but I would still think it depends on how you treat the Metronome. You play around the beat, even if the beat is a Metronome. To me, the idea is to play to SOMETHING and have to keep time with it. The feeling may cause you to play around it a bit more loosely, but at the end of the day, it still has to be anchored to the time keeper - which could be a drummer or a metronome. Now of course, the difference with a drummer is that he's not going to play like a metronome. IDK, I guess my take is that it depends on what you're trying to achieve in playing with the metronome.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I'm not qualified to declare whether Longo is right or wrong - or, if the real answer needs to be so binary ("it's either a one or a zero, boys").

 

What I have found personally is metronome exposes flaws in my ability to maintain fluidity. And working up continuous scales at faster clicks continues to help me.

 

But that's only one tool in the tool box, and I'm starting to realize (apart from this article) that 2/4 metronome exposes and helps me attack one flaw in my playing, but it doesn't correct bad, inconsistent or soulless swinging.

 

That I'm still working on, but it seems easier for me to work on that apart from the metronome. Or maybe I'm completely wrong there.

 

..
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Ok Dan got ya, but I play with drum machines, and maybe 10% of the time, I like them, they are just too stiff.. they do not represent the reality of real music. Maybe some metro disco "music" but not music with a heart beat!!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I'm not qualified to declare whether Longo is right or wrong - or, if the real answer needs to be so binary ("it's either a one or a zero, boys").

 

What I have found personally is metronome exposes flaws in my ability to maintain fluidity. And working up continuous scales at faster clicks continues to help me.

 

But that's only one tool in the tool box, and I'm starting to realize (apart from this article) that 2/4 metronome exposes and helps me attack one flaw in my playing, but it doesn't correct bad, inconsistent or soulless swinging.

 

That I'm still working on, but it seems easier for me to work on that apart from the metronome. Or maybe I'm completely wrong there.

I recommend Mikes DVD , he used to charge $80 per hour.. two CD's are about $80.00. I recommend him, and feel he will show you things about rhythm that you ( nor I ) really know, or have in our heartbeat, so to speak... readily able to seamlessly play eg a samba to a 2/4. to 5/4 to 12/8 to a calypso... this is not Mike's stuff this is the MAster rhythm man Dizzy's stuff.. how soon we forget!! Mike can play deep rhythms and they swing. No way can most of us do this. I admit to sheer laziness regarding doing what he prescribes , I hope to correct this soon!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I do about a third of my practice with the old lie detector. It has been of enormous benefit.

 

No offense, I appreciate that, but I am making a point, not meaning to be literal when I exclaim.. " Yeah man, but you sound like a Conservative", when you label it LIE DETECTOR, sure, it's catchy and I get it, but if you were to put your favorite recordings somehow through a complicated digital "lie detector", I am wondering how many of the magical moments in your fave music would turn out to be "lies"!!?? I suspect ( cannot prove ) that music is more like an elastic rubber band than like a hard steel square box.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I certainly understand that swing doesn't emanate from 2 & 4 and that as jazz players we have have to find that precise subdiviision that swings. So I get that part. The metronome is just giving some sort of reference point. True swing has to deviate from the beat.

 

I also understand that since a "real" band doesn't play to a click-track that keeping time becomes a process of continuous micro-adjustments that is a reaction to the listening that has to go on.So I get that too.

 

But statements like "feel it in your heart" or "pulse' are vague terms. What does that really mean? I have a lot of respect for Longo. So I'm sure these comments are not made lightly. The problem with vague statements is that a player will not know what to woodshed. It becomes all mysterious. A metronome is at least objective -- a lie detector -- that's a good one dazzjazz :)

 

Can't he say instead, "to swing, you need to find the -let in trip-e-let" or something more tangible? Drummers have to play some tangible subdivision.

 

BTW - I personally don't spend a lot of time practicing with metronomes, preferring drum tracks instead. So I'm not particularly perturbed by what he says. But most jazz teachers I've been exposed to are really big on using the metronome.

 

I have an open mind here and looking to explore deeper meanings.

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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BTW Tee, of course no one is going to argue that time is elastic in playing music.

 

But being more of a scientific mind, I captured a recording of my teacher playing a solo and then later on showed him the waveforms. He was playing his swing eighth (upbeat) EXACTLY in the -let (3rd) position, while he varied the downbeat eighth.

 

Now my teacher was surprised because, like everyone says, they say they're just feeling the swing. But the precision was amazing. Isn't that the kind precision that comes from metronome practice?

 

In other words, he set his swing (upbeat) eighth to land exactly at the same spot all the time. Or he's at a very precise subdivision of the beat. Well you have to woodshed that. I can't imagine building that kind of control just by "feeling it".

 

But then again, what do I know?

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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BTW Tee, of course no one is going to argue that time is elastic in playing music.

 

But being more of a scientific mind, I captured a recording of my teacher playing a solo and then later on showed him the waveforms. He was playing his swing eighth (upbeat) EXACTLY in the -let (3rd) position, while he varied the downbeat eighth.

 

Now my teacher was surprised because, like everyone says, they say they're just feeling the swing. But the precision was amazing. Isn't that the kind precision that comes from metronome practice?

 

In other words, he set his swing (upbeat) eighth to land exactly at the same spot all the time. Or he's at a very precise subdivision of the beat. Well you have to woodshed that. I can't imagine building that kind of control just by "feeling it".

 

But then again, what do I know?

 

 

DId you listen to the Longo DVD's as opposed to the merely introductory stuff? And next, have you practiced what Dizzy/Longo suggested?

BTW I never practiced with a metronome, and I will bet that many many famous influential players did not use the metronome much.

THe WAY you practice has to have a profound effect on how you perform, no?

It would be difficult to speak to elder musicians who possibly knew what the likes of Benson, Duke, Bird, Beck, Satchmo, Zoot, Freddie, Haynes, Lenny white, Paul Jackson, Stanley Clarke, Jimmy Smith, Ellington, Jaco, Chick, Ray Brown, Oscar, Ron Carter, etc etc etc actually DID to develop their time sense.

It's almost too late, but it would be an eye opener.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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The metronome can help people trying to correct or improve deficient skills in time keeping. It can act as a practice tool for those who have not developed the "muscle memory" to play in time.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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It can also help when practicing various subdivisions:

 

[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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The metronome can help people trying to correct or improve deficient skills in time keeping. It can act as a practice tool for those who have not developed the "muscle memory" to play in time.

What you are saying sounds universally applicable to all styles of music.. I am talking about American music in particular- funk, jazz, esp. Metronome won't teach swing. Longo's assimilation of Diz, will get one a lot closer a lot quicker.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Who said the metronome will teach swing ?

 

I think Longo is just being dogmatic...

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Who said the metronome will teach swing ?

 

I think Longo is just being dogmatic...

 

Do you know who he played with ? Paul Chambers was in a trio of his. Dizzy and Moody for years. I think you would be better to rethink who is dogmatic, or just drop that label entirely! 0_0

Besides, the point of studying music is to be more effective as a performer and nothing is more effective for a performance of most music, as swing, groove, pocket, whatever you wish to call it. To practice lines withOUT having swing or groove in mind makes no sense to me.

I love, but know little about Classical music, is there a kind of sort of swing to it!!!?

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Tee, I originally got Longo's DVD 1 but it was all promotion and no detail. I never got to buying DVD 2.

 

But I'm interested in what you're saying since I was intrigued (but didn't learn anything from DVD1).

 

So if you didn't practice using a metronome, HOW did you practice? I'm trying to get away from concepts and just understand what Longo means and you mean, translated to practical woodshedding.

 

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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Some other points of view from Wiki:

 

"The metronome is used by musicians to help keep a steady tempo as they play, or to work on issues of irregular timing, or to help internalize a clear sense of timing and tempo. The metronome is also often used by composers as a standard tempo reference, to indicate the intended tempo for the piece.

 

Human beings seldom play music at an exact tempo with all the beats exactly the same. This makes it impossible to align metronome clicks with the beats of a musically expressive performance. This also has led many musicians to criticize use of a metronome. Some go as far as to suggest that metronomes shouldn't be used by musicians at all. The same criticism has been applied to metronome markings as well. See Criticism of metronome use.

 

Those in favor of metronome use understand this as a criticism of metronome technique as commonly practiced by musicians, rather than criticism of the tool as such.[6][7] Their response has been to develop better methods of metronome technique to address the various issues raised by the critics. See Metronome Technique. These techniques however aren't widely known by musicians generally, including many of the critics of metronome use. What Frederick Franz wrote in the introduction to his book is still true today (the original version was published in 1947). Metronome technique has developed considerably since his day, but the amount published is still small. As in his day, it is understandable that critics should be under the impression that metronome technique simply consists of playing your music along with the metronome."

 

"There are two schools of thought among musicians concerning this use of the metronomeone opposed and the other favorable. "Practicing with a metronome" has been criticized by some musicians as "making you mechanical." In some instances such criticism is largely a prejudice, the critic having gained the impression that one starts a metronome and simply continues playing with it indefinitely. In most instances, however, such criticism is excusable since so little has been published on specific techniques of metronome uses. It is hoped that those who oppose its use for learning and improving the control of rhythm will read with tolerance these methods, employed by those who favor it, and perhaps investigate their value by experimenting with one or two of them in their own teaching or preparation for concerts."

 

 

"Metronome technique is extensive and has been the subject of several books. So this short section just summarizes some of the main ideas and approaches. The "intuitive" approach to metronome practise, is to simply play your music along with a metronome. With metronome technique however, musicians do separate exercises with a metronome to help strengthen and steady their sense of rhythm, and tempo; and increase their sensitivity to musical time and precision. Only occasionally do you play your music with a metronome, to deal with particular issues. It is entirely possible that you never play your music with a metronome at all.

 

I spent the better part of this past month rereading a great book on tempo by Andrew C. Lewis, titled Rhythm: What It Is And How To Improve Your Sense Of It. The book contains dozens of exercises on how to build inner timing, most of which can be practiced without an instrument; all you need is a metronome. So every day during my commute to and from the office, Ive been jamming out with my Korg Beatlab clipping quarter notes at 80 beats per minute while clapping, snapping, tapping, and singing myself into oblivion. You should see the looks Ive been getting at stoplights."

 

"The basic skill required is the ability to play precisely in the pocket with the metronome in a relaxed fashion. This first step helps the musician to relate to the time of the metronome clearly and precisely at the millisecond level, to help internalize a similarly precise sense of time in yourself. It is not a goal in itself, and the aim is not particularly to be able to play like a metronome.

 

It is harder to play in the pocket with the metronome than one might expect, especially with piano or percussion. That's because the metronome click may seem to vanish when you hit the click exactly or may be heard less distinctly. The further you are away from the click the more easily you hear the metronome. Musicians who attempt to play in the pocket with a metronome without use of the established techniques for doing this may find that it introduces tension and effort into their instrument technique.

 

To address these issues, the musicians start by learning to play consistently ahead or behind the beat whenever they want to. As a result they develop a clear sense of "where the click is" and so can also play to hit the click as well, in a relaxed way.

 

The other thing they do is to listen out to hear how the sound of their playing merges with the metronome to create a new sound when you play precisely in the pocket with the metronome. By listening in this way (and through other exercises) it is possible to play precisely in the pocket with the metronome in a relaxed fashion.

 

At the same time as they work on playing in the pocket, they also work on flexibility and the ability to play in the same precise way anywhere in the beat.

 

Precision of timing and sensitivity to musical time

 

2/4 at 60 bpm. Plays 5 measures then goes silent for 2, 3, 4, and 8 measures (alternating with 2 measures played). Play in the pocket with the click. Are you still in the pocket when the metronome comes back on? One of the exercises in metronome technique to help internalize a precise sense of time and tempo.

 

Many exercises are used to help with precision of timing and sensitivity to time, also independence, to make sure you don't become a slave of the metronome. These exercises include:

 

Set the metronome to go silent for a number of measures, and see if you are still in time when it comes back on again

Set it to go silent for increasingly longer time periods and see if you are still in time.

Play through music in your mind's ear, and try to do keep in time with the metronome as you do so.

Practise subdividing the beat, with the metronome set to a slow tempo, including set to click on the measure beat, every second measure, the second beat of the measure instead of the first (or the second and fourth, technique used for jazz), set to click every 5 beats for a rhythm in 4/4, and so on.

 

Playing displaced clicks

Playing polyrhythmically with the metronome

 

And many other exercises. Much of modern metronome technique is to do with various methods to help resolve timing issues, and to encourage and develop a clear sense of musical time and to help with precision of timing.

 

This steadiness and precision you can develop and encourage through metronome technique does no harm to musical expression in timing and rhythm; indeed one of the motivations is to help with nuances of timing and tempo. An analogy with art may help. It's like Giotto's circle, or Apelles' straight line, if you can play a perfectly steady and precise beat, it helps with nuances of timing., It doesn't mean that you can only play perfectly steady beats, just as Giotto or Apelles impressive displays of technique didn't mean that they could only draw circles and straight lines.

 

Musically expressive rhythms

 

Modern metronome technique addresses the issues of expressive musical rhythms in many ways. For instance, much of the focus of modern metronome technique is on encourage and develop a good sense of tempo and timing in your playing, and in your mind. So you may work with the metronome in separate exercises to achieve this. When you have a more precise sense of the passage of time, you can then choose for yourself how to use this in your musical performance. You still play in a musically expressive fashion with continually changing tempo and beat, the only difference is that as a result of your work on precision of timing with use of a metronome, you are more aware of what you are doing.

 

To be an artist one must be able to play in perfect time slow, fast, or anywhere between. Then one must be able to leave the time at will. This is not the same as having the time leave the player, and that is the effect if one is not able to play with the metronome.

 

Special metronome exercises are used to help keep this fluid sense of rhythm and timing as you work with the metronome. There are many of them, they include:

 

Drift gradually from one beat to the next and play polyrhythmically with the metronome

Play beats ahead or behind the click and get comfortable with playing anywhere relative to the metronome click.

As you play with the metronome start from a pulse unison and gradually push your notes ahead of the click then pull back again to pulse unison (also the other way pulling behind the pulse)

 

At the same time you can work on developing a higher level of awareness of the many natural rhythms in your everyday life and use exercises to help bring those rhythms into your music.

 

Time Feel, the subject of Chapter 7, is one of the great keys to musicality for rhythm section instruments. But being able to play behind or ahead of the pulse can also add expression to a melodic line. This, along with slight changes in dynamics, creates phrasing in music. The ability to hear the pulse and yet accelerate or decelerate slightly is a great way to incorporate human feeling into a musical performance. Of course, this is all relative to the tempo, and is best achieved relative to a steady tempo. In other words, the more definite your sense of pulse, the better your capability to manipulate it. This also works for the actions of ritardando and accelerando, as they are relative to a steady pulse and are best performed gradually rather than in sudden shifts"

 

In this way, with suitable metronome techniques, use of a metronome helps you to improve your sense of time and exact timing without causing any of the expected issues for musicality and expressive timing. The thing to bear in mind all the way through is that you use the metronome to help with exact timing but that the sense of rhythm and musically expressive timing is something that comes from yourself. Rhythm is natural to human beings and pervades our lives, though you may need help to bring that rhythm into music. As Andrew Lewis says in his book:

 

Rhythm is everywhere. Be sensitive to it, and stay aware of spontaneous occurrences that can spur rhythmic development. Listen all the time and use your imagination. Become a rhythm antenna.

 

An exact sense of the passage of time doesn't come to humans so naturally (sometimes time may seem to pass quickly and sometimes more slowly) and that's where the metronome can help most. That's how the teachers of metronome technique referenced here think of the tool - as a way to increase your sensitivity to musical time, and develop greater precision of timing and a clearer sense of the passage of musical time - relative to which musicians can then use expressive, natural and fluid rhythms, with as much rubato and tempo variance as they wish for."

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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BTW I should note that I saw the original post about Mike Longo from Hal Galper -- another non-slouch.

 

Hal Galper One of my ex-students Nathan Belloit sent a post of this article on the value of using the metronome for practicing by one of the great teacher/players of our time, Mike Longo. A MUST READ!

 

 

Hal Galper Learning how to play time is not learning how to play a series of notes. It is learning how to play a series of spaces between the notes evenly. This requires slow practicing. By slow practicing you enlarge the spaces between the notes offering the chance for greater control. A metronome will not help you with this way of practicing. Had you been a student of Tristano, he would note have allowed you to play fast for the first year you studied with him.

 

Hal Galper

To All Concerned With This Discussion: check out our latest Origin Records trio CD "Airegin Revisited" on which we play in Rubato Style. We subdivide, superimpose, use what Joe Chambers calls Forced Rhythms all over a consistent internal pulse. Consider this exercise which I practiced to develop this ability; play the chromatic scale in an accelerando or deccelerando and stop at any point on the curve and play that tempo while maintaining the pulse, without a metronome. Eventually you end up being able to play any tempo over the pulse.

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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I thought the Kenny Werner exercises were interesting. I will ask my old teacher Mike about this practice. I think it would be fun to do them. They won't teach me swing, but they will touch on yet another weaker area in my playing. I would note though that perhaps at first I would use a metronome, but then I would want to reach a point of internalization, without metronome.

 

I am sorry about DVD 1 and you! It's an introduction. The exercises begin on 2.. 3 and the proposed final DVD, 4. Did you see where he shows students how to play the exercises at all? I have not looked at #1 in a long time. If and when you do see students learning it.. you will see, it is not easy. You have to spend a good amount of time getting these rhythms. I asked Mike, long before DVD's were out, to allow me to pay for ALL the exercises in advance. He simply said no. He said this is learned in stages. WHile initially frustrated, I gradually realized his wisdom.

Please get DVD #2.. buy the drum required, practice what is there. It will seem simple, but until it gets into you, into your hands, heartbeat, internalized, you don't own it, and you will never go to the more advanced and what Mike calls , Ultra Advanced rhythms. Crawl before walk, applies.

If Mike were a mere profiteer, he would have said, "yes" to my request to take all the rhythm lessons at once.. but he did not. Mike is the real deal.

Dizzy's take on Afro rhythm, takes... time!

In the meantime while waiting for DVD #2, listen again to DVD #1. This is coming from Dizzy.

My limited experience with "this", was a remarkable one; and as to why I did not master this long ago... that is an embarrassing question I bring up willing.. but trust me, it blew my mind. And you will see other students on DVD's who express similar sentiments.

Frankly, I feel most jazz musicians who are not into the height of their creativity, would greatly profit from Dizzy's universal rhythmic concept.

Dizzy's rhythmic depth was respected widely, for reasons beyond my understanding, but they were respected . Let me say this, Freddie Hubbard is my favorite, but Freddie is not quite as deep rhythmically as Dizzy was. I can hear this. I cannot prove it. And do not need to.

You have to drop the intellectual curiosity a bit, and just be a student, and follow Dizzy's lead.. it's a whole other thing. Remember, jazz is Euro Afro thing, neither just one or the other, but a magical creative amalgam of the two wonderful music cultures. But Euro culture cannot ask too many questions and expect to penetrate this more Afro conception that is uniquely Dizzy's take on Afro rhythm.. not even Latin music is the same thing.

I don't really want to go on about this... fly out to NYC and take a lesson from Mike, or save the money for a hand drum, and check out the remaining DVD's.

BTW I DID fly out there ( my old home ) to take a few lessons with Mike during the first big San Diego fire about 10 years ago.

Let me put this another way, if you are content with the rhythmic side of your playing, then this is not for "you". If you agree like me that jazz is Afro Euro, and that Afro is a bit of a mystery for you ( as it is for me... I am not Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Sonny Rollins, Dizzy, Louis, or Bird- some of the most advanced rhythm players I know ) then this DVD set IS for "you".

To me, the Euro side of creativity was epitomized in Bach.

Jazz players can range closer to the Euro side, or the Afro side.. I prefer to develop my weaker side, the jazz rhythm side.. so Dizzy is the natural place to get that! Thanks for hearing my enthusiastic take on this gift to jazz players.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I'm not qualified to declare whether Longo is right or wrong - or, if the real answer needs to be so binary ("it's either a one or a zero, boys").

 

What I have found personally is metronome exposes flaws in my ability to maintain fluidity. And working up continuous scales at faster clicks continues to help me.

 

But that's only one tool in the tool box, and I'm starting to realize (apart from this article) that 2/4 metronome exposes and helps me attack one flaw in my playing, but it doesn't correct bad, inconsistent or soulless swinging.

 

That I'm still working on, but it seems easier for me to work on that apart from the metronome. Or maybe I'm completely wrong there.

You said whether MIKE LONGO is wrong or right... then mentioned dichotomous binary thinking.. an aside. The fact is this is DIZZY, and BIRD not so much Mike. Mike is an humble disciple of these giants.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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But being more of a scientific mind, I captured a recording of my teacher playing a solo and then later on showed him the waveforms. He was playing his swing eighth (upbeat) EXACTLY in the -let (3rd) position, while he varied the downbeat eighth.

My guitar player say's he has been improving his feel by playing to a metronome so that the click is on the upbeat, and nowhere else. It gives him a little more space to play. He has improved, but is that because of the amount of wood shedding or the nature of it ....? :idk

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When I first got a 4-track, back in the 70's, I was shocked to find that I could record one track and when adding the second track, I couldn't, because the timing in the first track was so terrible. This is before I'd heard of a click track. I was a self-(mis-)taught musician who hadn't played much with others, and frankly, my timing sucked. A metronome was the cure.

 

My guess is that anyone who says not to practice jazz with a metronome already has practiced other styles well enough to develop a good internal clock. In any case, when I do practice with a metronome, I'm usually not playing it the way I'd perform it, but rather, establishing a baseline. A performance doesn't mean sticking to the baseline, but it's important to know where the baseline is.

 

THe stuff Jazz+ quoted was great. There are a lot of ways to use a metronome; clicking on 1,2,3,4 is just one of them, and not even nearly the one I use the most.

 

On piano or guitar, when the click is on downbeat or backbeat, I love it when I can make the click disappear. It feels like I'm playing the click, rather than following it. But, I wouldn't be playing jazz when doing that.

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I had a lot of :facepalm: reactions to Mr. Longo's article, like when he said that the drop in popularity in jazz might be due to people practicing with metronomes. Uh, seriously? :rolleyes:

 

I practice with 2 and 4 all the time, and feel swing when I do.

 

The point of practicing with a metronome isn't to lock you in and make you a machine, but to tighten up your sense of time. For whatever reason, some of us are better at this than others. Of course when you play with a band you play with them and with the time. But like the old saying goes, you have to know the rules before you can break them. Here, you should know where the time is before you play with it. Every player in the band should know where the time is. It's not the drummer's job or whatever, it's everyone's.

 

Finally, I think I originally saw this here but I'm not sure. Mr. Wooten talks about how to use a metronome and how it's about putting the time in you, not it dictating the time.

 

[video:youtube]

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Tee, I'm not dismissive of what Longo says because I have a lot of respect for Hal Galper and Hal thinks Longo is right.

 

I'm especially curious about this...

 

Hal Galper To All Concerned With This Discussion: check out our latest Origin Records trio CD "Airegin Revisited" on which we play in Rubato Style. We subdivide, superimpose, use what Joe Chambers calls Forced Rhythms all over a consistent internal pulse. Consider this exercise which I practiced to develop this ability; play the chromatic scale in an accelerando or deccelerando and stop at any point on the curve and play that tempo while maintaining the pulse, without a metronome. Eventually you end up being able to play any tempo over the pulse.

 

When I hear about Longo, I always hear references to new subdivisions and afro rhythms. That's what I heard in DVD 1 though he mentioned not a single exercise. So I felt like I wasted my money.

 

But I'm intrigued by Hal Galper's statement above because he doesn't even talk about afro-rhythms and I am curious about what he means. He plays a rubato run then goes back to the pulse.

 

Any experts here who understand this? Some of these approaches are way advanced.

 

And I was looking earlier for that Victor Wooten video since that's the first thing I thought about on Metronomes but perhaps I realize that Hal Galper/Longo are talking about something deeper here.

 

 

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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I sent the article to my piano teacher, who is a decent jazz musician in his own right to say the least. In fact, like Longo, he also played with Dizzy Gillespie.

 

"I strongly disagree. And if he's calling me a white cat who doesn't swing, I challenge him to a duel."

 

:D

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Yep. I don't think it could possibly hurt, it's just practice. It helps me get phrases down that I normally would butcher if I were just reading the chart. Sometimes when you have a variety of different note durations, i.e., whole, half, quarter, eight,sixteenth and combinations, it helps me to get it down, then I learn it and can do as I please.

 

Musicale

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