Intonation on fretless (and Patitucci eBook)

[Michele C.]

hello, I bought the eBook from Patitucci that John Goldsby mentioned in his last column and am trying the exercises on my fretless bass.

The book is very useful and interesting to learn intonation and experiment with triads, but I found an interesting twist when I stopped to adapt the fingerings for electric bass. I tried using the fingerings that the book suggests, which are for a double bass, and I found myself much more comfortable (expected) and much more in tune (surprise).

I watch for intonation on a d'Addario tuner which sits permanently on my headstock and found that double bass fingerings are not only much more relaxing for my left hand, which is obvious, given the difference in string length.

What is more interesting is that it is much easier to keep the tuner green.

I had already noted that some triple stops, like an A7 played on 1st, 2nd and 4th string at the V fret is pretty much impossible for me if I use the fingering I used on guitar and fretted bass with my middle finger playing the major third on the first string. While the same chord is perfect if I use my pinky for the C#.

So, my question is: is it a good thing to go for a better intonation and a less stretched hand borrowing some technique from the double bass on fretless?

[Chad Thorne]

So, my question is: is it a good thing to go for a better intonation and a less stretched hand borrowing some technique from the double bass on fretless?

If it works for you, do it.

[jeremy c]

I use double bass fingering all the time on my fretless. It definitely helps keep the bass in tune.

[Wally Malone]

I use double bass fingering all the time on my fretless. It definitely helps keep the bass in tune.

 

Ditto!

 

Wally

[johngoldsby]

I use DB fingerings on electric quite often, especially in lower positions.

[pturbo]

Where do you guys get the Patitucci Ebook? Im a fretless player and sometimes with intonation issues but not as much but willing to learn. Help is kindly accepted.

Thank you guys.

[Michele C.]

This is the book on Amazon.

I read about it in John Goldsby's blog

Kindle format, five bucks, looks pretty good on my Mac, is usable on the Kindle.

 

 

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FsmyNFLtL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-52,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Phil W]

Jerry Watts said I had good intonation despite awful left hand technique. Since then, I have worked hard on my left hand. I started with one finger per fret, especially when I tried to sight read but I have since switched to a modified upright approach and it works much better. And my intonation is better!

[Groove Mama]

Could someone please explain to me, in 25 words or less, what the referenced fingering is all about?

 

Sounds like maybe I could use it!

[jeremy c]

Upright fingering uses fingers 1 2 and 4. These fingers span three frets. All fifths and octaves are fingered 1 4. The 3rd finger is not used until you get to the 12th fret.

 

 

Sorry, that's 34 words.

 

 

[Michele C.]

Put your index finger on an A on the G string, chances are good that your middle is on Bb and the pinky on B. Well, finger that way.

 

(it's 34 words, Mama)

[Groove Mama]

Put your index finger on an A on the G string, chances are good that your middle is on Bb and the pinky on B. Well, finger that way.

 

(it's 34 words, Mama)

Ha. Thanks, guys. Very interesting. So I've been struggling to stretch 4 fingers across 4 frets why, exactly? And doesn't this mess up scale fingering, specifically the 7th and octave?

 

(Sorry. 30 words.)

[jeremy c]

Fingerings will be posted tomorrow or the next day.

[SuStudio]

Ha. Thanks, guys. Very interesting. So I've been struggling to stretch 4 fingers across 4 frets why, exactly? And doesn't this mess up scale fingering, specifically the 7th and octave?

(Sorry. 30 words.)

 

I use both techniques (one finger per fret vs 12&4 ) and I actually prefer the one finger per fret on both my electric fretted and fretless. I don't have large hands and I'm not stretching to the point of discomfort but I do make sure I have proper thumb placement and a wide angle on my wrist. The extra shifting required for the upright approach seems unnecessary IMHO. Of course on my upright it's 12&4 fingering all the way with lots of open string usage.

[jeremy c]

A scale fingerings using 12&4 to cover 3 frets.

 

The first three examples use three strings.

Number 4 uses four strings.

Number 5 uses two strings and Number 6 uses one string.

 

1) open A, 1st finger on B, 4th finger on C#, open D 1st finger on E, 4th finger on F#, move hand back one fret: play G# on G string with 1st finger, A with 2nd.

 

2) 1st finger on A on E string, 4th finger on B, move back one fret: 1st finger on C# on A string, move forward: play D with 1st finger finger on D, play E with 4th finger, move back one fret: play F# on D string, move forward one fret: play G# with 2nd finger and A with 4th finger.

 

3) 1st finger on A on E string, move up 2 frets: play B with 1st finger, C# with 4th finger, move back 2 frets: 1st finger on D on A string, move up 2 frets: play E with 1st finger, F# with 4th finger, move back one fret: play G# on D string with 1st finger, A with 2nd finger

 

4) 4th finger on A on E string, move back one fret: play B with 1st finger on A string, C# with 4th finger, move up one fret: play D with 4th finger, move back one fret: play E with 1st finger on D string, play F# with 4th finger, move back one fret: play G# with 1st finger on G string, play A with 2nd finger

 

5) 1st finger on A on E string, move up 2 frets: play B with 1st finger, move up one fret: play C# with 2nd finger, D with 4th finger, move back one fret: play E on A string with 1st finger, move up 2 frets: play F# with 1st finger, move up one fret: play G# with 2nd finger, A with 4th.

 

6)this one's a Bb scale, all on the A string.

1st finger on Bb on the A string, C with 4th finger, move your 1st finger 4 frets and play D with 1st finger and Eb with 2nd, move your 1st finger three frets and play F with your 1st finger and G with your 4th, move your 1st finger four frets and play A with your 1st finger, Bb with your 2nd.

 

I can play all these fingerings pretty quickly in all the keys without particularly thinking about it. This means that I can pretty much get from any note to any other note no matter where my hand is on the fingerboard and no matter what finger I happen to be using at any given instant.

 

This probably took me 10,000 hours of practice to learn how to do.

[Michele C.]

So I've been struggling to stretch 4 fingers across 4 frets why, exactly?

 

Because it works very well on the shorter scale of a fretted bass (10" less than an URB).

On a fretless bass, if you played A, Bb, B on the G string using index, middle and ring finger, the B would be flat, or you would slightly shift position, because there is no fret in the right position to intonate perfectly no matter where your finger falls.

Intonation will be perfect if your finger is exactly on the spot where the fret would be and this would be true if you fingered index, middle, pinky.

So, it is basically a matter of shrugging off intonation, or not worrying about these adjustments or going for a fingering that would work in the dark and when you are looking at the score, or the bandleader, or the public.

On a fretted bass it is just a matter of taste and hand size.

[Groove Mama]

Wow, thanks, JC. Sounds really interesting. I'll check it out.

 

This probably took me 10,000 hours of practice to learn how to do.

And I'd better start soon, so I have a chance to get it down before I die of old age.

[Groove Mama]

So I've been struggling to stretch 4 fingers across 4 frets why, exactly?

 

Because it works very well on the shorter scale of a fretted bass (10" less than an URB).

On a fretless bass, if you played A, Bb, B on the G string using index, middle and ring finger, the B would be flat, or you would slightly shift position, because there is no fret in the right position to intonate perfectly no matter where your finger falls.

Intonation will be perfect if your finger is exactly on the spot where the fret would be and this would be true if you fingered index, middle, pinky.

So, it is basically a matter of shrugging off intonation, or not worrying about these adjustments or going for a fingering that would work in the dark and when you are looking at the score, or the bandleader, or the public.

On a fretted bass it is just a matter of taste and hand size.

Really don't want to shrug off intonation. I'll give it a try. Thanks, Michele.

[SuStudio]

So, it is basically a matter of shrugging off intonation, or not worrying about these adjustments or going for a fingering that would work in the dark and when you are looking at the score, or the bandleader, or the public.

On a fretted bass it is just a matter of taste and hand size.

 

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement.

[jeremy c]

So, it is basically a matter of shrugging off intonation, or not worrying about these adjustments or going for a fingering that would work in the dark and when you are looking at the score, or the bandleader, or the public.

On a fretted bass it is just a matter of taste and hand size.

 

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement.

 

I think I agree with it.

[J. Dan]

I'm going to ask a dumb question. I am formally trained on keyboards but picked up bass on my own with no books or videos. So my technique is just whatever it came up with to mimic what I hear.

 

That said, the fingering I use on fretted electric bass sounds just like you guys are describing. I guess that's what felt natural to me.

 

When you take lessons, do they teach different fingerings?

[jeremy c]

Most electric bass books say "play one finger per fret".

 

I like this book which suggests fingerings similar to what I have illustrated as well as one finger per fret fingerings.

 

I teach a variety of fingerings to all my students, but I can't speak for other teachers because I haven't had a lot teachers. The ones that I have had never commented on fingerings. We talked about other things.

[J. Dan]

I taught myself guitar around the same time. I think the difference in fret spacing made me gravitate toward more pinky usage on the bass,

[EddiePlaysBass]

That said, the fingering I use on fretted electric bass sounds just like you guys are describing. I guess that's what felt natural to me.

 

Funny, I play 1 finger per fret on electric, but use the other method described when playing upright. Well, mostly anyway

[Michele C.]

Thank you for the fingerings Jeremy, I am giving it a try.

[Eric VB]

6)this one's a Bb scale, all on the A string.

1st finger on Bb on the A string, C with 4th finger, move your 1st finger 4 frets and play D with 1st finger and Eb with 2nd, move your 1st finger three frets and play F with your 1st finger and G with your 4th, move your 1st finger four frets and play A with your 1st finger, Bb with your 2nd.

While this seems excessive I do agree there is value in being able to climb a scale on one string, e.g. you start in first position and have to go up the G string.

 

If your shifting is that accurate, though, why not just use your middle finger for all notes?

 

Believe it or not I saw a beginner do just that. If he needed more fretting speed he'd reach over with his other hand to tap the extra note.

[jeremy c]

I'm actually thinking about building a one string fretless cigar box bass.

 

My brother has a few cigar box guitars and we want to do a show together.

[jeremy c]

If your shifting is that accurate, though, why not just use your middle finger for all notes?

 

My shifting is accurate because I use the same shifts all the time. Most position shifts are no more than 2 frets in either direction.

 

You are correct that a one string scale is rarely needed. But at various times I like crawling up one string. It gives a consistency of tone and it looks pretty flashy.

[Michele C.]

While this seems excessive I do agree there is value in being able to climb a scale on one string, e.g. you start in first position and have to go up the G string.

 

The book I was mentioning above makes you do major and minor one string scales in twelve tones on al four strings before getting to the main point: triad combinations. The rationale is that to do wide arpeggios you have to fix your intonation and fingering across large shifts. No exact fingerings are provided for some exercises, you have to experiment and figure out the different fingerings that work.

In the end I think I will use a combination of different fingerings at different times, choosing according to musical context, but this what the book teaches, I think, and it makes even more sense on the scale of an electric bass.

An other exercise I have enjoyed is jumping major sevenths on one string while singing the notes.

I am not playing much my fretted one these days, as you might have guessed. I have also gone back to round wounds: I hear it brighter and more varied this time and miss less the other one.

[Groove Mama]

Eh, I am already finding that using my pinky on the 3rd fret sounds a heck of a lot better. Weak as it is, I guess it's still stronger than the ring finger. Thanks, y'all!