IEMs just for me on an amplified stage - ambient bleed mic?

[bloodyMary]

hi guys. This topic about mains vs. monitors got me thinking, how can I improve my monitoring on stage?

 

Well, when I do a posh gig, with 2 hours to do soundcheck and twenty aux sends to stage, then no problem, just be a bit more pain in the @ss to the soundguy and make him tune my mix alright.

 

 

But the real problem is those gigs when the venue is so-so, stage space is tight, and we ain't got no time to set up.

 

I figured, I gotta bring my own monitoring. Now, powered speaker could be nice, but I don't want that weight, and sometimes the stage is very, very loud, so I'd need to crank that speaker AND use earplugs. stupid..

 

 

So I figured, why not use IEMs? Now, a proper IEM mix just isn't going to happen. I also don't trust a random sound guy a direct access to my ears so he can push a horrible feedbacking squeal in there and make me deaf.

 

 

I tried simply plugging a Shure earset into headphone out of my KB, and it did do wonders - make stage noise tolerable, and put some more keys into my ears. But it also kinda cancels out much of the stage sound - including the crowd, the vocalist, etc.

 

Read about these ambient mics that allow some of the stage noise into the earphones. However, I have zero experience with those, and have no idea how to set this up properly.

 

I could try a homebrew setup just to see how it works - use my decent condencer mic as an ambient, plug it into the mixer, plug the KB out in there also, and see if it works.

 

Bute surely, there are more elegant, fine-tuned solutions that won't take an hour to set up.. ah, also my decent mic isn't omnidirectional, just cardioid, so I guess it won't work that well.

 

 

So, any advice guys?

[J. Dan]

The shure bodypacks have a 1/4" input in addition to working wirelessly. I havent seen it in a while, but they used to sell an ambient lapel mic that plugged in, and you could dial in some ambient sound.

[HAMEGZ]

the Posse IEM system has built in room mics, plus a DI and stereo ins check it out, I used one for a while

[Ashville.Guru]

To the OP - I'm also in the same boat. I've had sound guys giving me a feed into my interface, which has independent volume control for headphone outs. Thanks for the heads-up - I'd better route the mains through a limiter before it reaches my ears!

 

I've been thinking of experimenting with some cheap omnidirectional mics to pick op stage ambience. I'm curious to know others' opinions/experiences in this regard.

 

 

- Guru

[Stokely]

One reason I went with the shure bodypack was the built-in limiter...otherwise I might have used my small rolls mixer. Granted I don't know how well it works and I have to make sure it's going to kick on in time to save my hearing!

 

In my case I'm counting on a single feed from the board that will have my keys and all other instruments. If I was in this situation...hmmm. It would be clunky but you could have a small mixer with mic, along with your keys (and whatever else you want, including a board send that includes the singer if they have one to give you). That could then feed a limiter/bodypack if you feel it's important (I'm erring on the side of caution).

[bloodyMary]

If you have a feed from main console in your ears and no limiter, it's BAD.

 

Singer drops the mic -> your eardrums pop.

 

Since I plan on feeding just my own stuff, I'm less worried.

 

Still, maybe a limier will do.

 

 

 

Btw, a little update. I figured the follow rig:

 

Keyboard h/p out -> tiny mixer

Ambient mic ->tiny mixer

Mixer h/p out->extension cable ->in-ears.

 

Wired inears for now. If it works well after a couple of gigs, I'm adding wireless.

[Sparky2]

Even though I control my own gear, I added the Rolls limiter between my mixer and my ears, just for safety. I tested it out using speakers and it took an awful lot of volume to get the limiter to kick in. I keep my (wired) ears very low and have the threshold adjusted as low as it goes. I guess it would only kick in if there was an extremely loud pop. Even strong feedback wouldn't get loud enough because the volume is set so low. For $40 on eBay it was a no brainer....

 

Mark

[Stokely]

In our case, I'm getting the feed from our main FOH mixer (on stage). It is digital and has a limiter applied to the signal there, but I felt better having a physical limiter closer to my ears. But I'll need to test to see when the limiter will kick on. It's shure and I expect it's made to work well with the shure earbuds that come with it, but if I bought some other earbuds that were more sensitive I could see a potential problem. There's no threshold that I can set I don't think (it's on the truck for delivery today! Yay!). It's also convenient in the sense that I'll need my mixer as a submixer soon and I'm trying to limit (no pun intended) the number of devices and wall warts to plug in.

[eric]

I've been on IEMs for three years exclusively - never found a need for ambient mic as I can hear what I need to hear coming through the existing mics on stage. I use a wireless IEM rig with a limiter and also I have a submixer that lets me dial in volume for my stereo band feed and separately my stereo keyboard feed. No issues.

[I-missRichardTee]

Having an amplified speaker THAT close to my ear.. is scary for me.

[Joe Muscara]

I love you guys who say you can't hear the crowd when you have IEMs in. The crowd? What crowd? You cats must be some serious arena rock stars.

[bloodyMary]

I am a huge rock star with a tiny audience

[Pale]

I do not have a problem not hearing the audience, I have a peoblem not hearing what my bandmates say on stage. Obviously, they do not say it into stage mics since what they say on stage is not ment to be heard by the audience ( like if we change the planned next song or lay down a groove for singer to say something...). I only started using IEM this year, and I have been very satisfied so far, except the fact I do not hear on stage sounds. I think I will incorporate a stage bleed mic next to my position on my next gig.

[J. Dan]

In my old band, with everything running direct and everybody in the band on IEM's, they were so clear that we could speak very softly in the mic to each other without the crowd being able to tell what we were saying to each other due to just all the ambient noise.

 

Personally, I liked not being able to hear the crowd. Perfect excuse for when they want to make a stupid request or get onstage..."sorry, I can't hear you" point to the IEM's, shrug my shoulders and carry on.

[Stokely]

Not hearing bandmates is my worry as well. We have a mix of in-ears and monitors unfortunately so that will be a challenge. We are tapped out as far as inputs (grr too many drums) so an ambient mic that only feeds monitors won't fly.

[bloodyMary]

Having an amplified speaker THAT close to my ear.. is scary for me.

 

It's supposed to be safer due to lower volume and better control.

 

 

You feel ok standing 3 feet away from a 200wt speaker which will push 130-140db into your ear (typically 100-110 on my stages). A 3 ft distance will only shave of a few dB off that.

 

But you are afraid to put a 70-80 CONTROLLED source? Hmm..

 

By the way, in-ears are not really in the ear. The driver is located outside your ear, just like regular consumer headphones. It's silicon/foam that goes inside.

[eric]

I can usually hear just fine on stage and our singer is good about coming around and clearly verifying any changes to setlist etc. I find that it is funny at rehearsal where not everyone does IEMs, but I do...we have a lot more "room conversations" so I need to remember to take out the IEMs for a while...otherwise I am shouting. It has developed into a funny thing where I'm mocked when I start shouting because I can't hear myself when wearing the IEMs.

[bloodyMary]

Eric, you do have the mics coming into your IEMs, don't you?

I mean, vocal mics, drum mics.. I bet they provide a great deal of ambiance?

[J. Dan]

Vocal mics provide more than enough ambience in every situation I've been. In fact, I can even get an idea of what it sounds like out front from the vocal mic bleed.

[eric]

Eric, you do have the mics coming into your IEMs, don't you?

I mean, vocal mics, drum mics.. I bet they provide a great deal of ambiance?

 

Yes, I have a perfect mix of all mics and every instrument on stage coming to my IEMs.

[Ashville.Guru]

In my context, I'm the only guy using IEMs. And there's no band - more like a roster, so hearing my co-musicians on stage (is there a better term, like 'bandmates'?). Sometimes I can convince the sound guy to give me the main mix, sometimes not. If I don't get a feed from FoH, that's when I'd need some way to hear the vocalists, and other musicians. This is where I'm considering an omnidirectional mic. Hearing the crowd/'ambient sounds' in general isn't that much of a priority.

 

- Guru

[Pale]

I use this for my band. Drummer, 3 backing vocals and me use it, guitar players and bass don't need monitoring.

 

 

http://www.alesis.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/23/e2a84e439f002645bc90340bb5b61f5a/large/multimix6_lrg.jpg

 

Each channel has 3 headphone outputs, and each channel has a mix between "master" and "aux" inputs. I send master mix to everyone, and everyone can get "more me" via aux inputs. Works great so far.

 

 

[Stokely]

Having an amplified speaker THAT close to my ear.. is scary for me.

 

It's supposed to be safer due to lower volume and better control.

 

You feel ok standing 3 feet away from a 200wt speaker which will push 130-140db into your ear (typically 100-110 on my stages). A 3 ft distance will only shave of a few dB off that.

 

This is how I'm looking at it. And not just with monitor speakers, drums get me too. For example, last gig we were doing a jam tune that builds up and up. At the "climax" the drummer goes nuts hitting crashes on the accents...when he did that, I could hear my eardrums "distort" for lack of a better term...the crashes had a wobble to them. Really hard to describe but being 10 feet or less from a revved-up drummer can't be healthy.

 

Granted I could go earplugs as well, but even with good plugs I find it hard to hear what I'm playing.

[Joe Muscara]

Having an amplified speaker THAT close to my ear.. is scary for me.

 

It's supposed to be safer due to lower volume and better control.

Also, I wouldn't do this without a limiter which most (all?) in-ear monitor systems provide, unless I was only using my feeds directly from my keyboard.

[Jeff_D_in_MD]

Does the Posse just have hard plastic ear buds, or a selection of different sizes of plugs?

[bloodyMary]

Having an amplified speaker THAT close to my ear.. is scary for me.

 

It's supposed to be safer due to lower volume and better control.

 

You feel ok standing 3 feet away from a 200wt speaker which will push 130-140db into your ear (typically 100-110 on my stages). A 3 ft distance will only shave of a few dB off that.

 

This is how I'm looking at it. And not just with monitor speakers, drums get me too. For example, last gig we were doing a jam tune that builds up and up. At the "climax" the drummer goes nuts hitting crashes on the accents...when he did that, I could hear my eardrums "distort" for lack of a better term...the crashes had a wobble to them. Really hard to describe but being 10 feet or less from a revved-up drummer can't be healthy.

 

Granted I could go earplugs as well, but even with good plugs I find it hard to hear what I'm playing.

 

 

 

I've read once that drum cymbals can reach 140dB peaks (probably wikipedia, but sounds sorta right..), that's way above threshold of pain/hearing damage.

 

 

By the way, about the "distortion in th ear" you described..

 

The human ear works like a microphone, and it's dynamic range is limited. It starts distorting above ~80dB SPL. So when stuff gets louder than that, you lose great deal of clarity. Above certain levels it gets hard to distinguish between note pitches. This is something I've read in a engineering textbook, so it's pretty reliable info.

[HAMEGZ]

they did include some low cost units, but I replaced them with Shures

[David Loving]

I was in a gospel band using Shures - they work very well

[NeverTooLate]

What about just using in-ears that cancel out less of the surrounding noise? I've tried the Superlux HD 381 in the past, but only during rehearsal, not on stage. I went for the powered speaker (plus ear plugs) in the end, but that was definitely not because of the sound, which was perfect compared to what I'm used to. I just didn't like the feeling of being isolated and at the same time tied to my keyboard. I suppose having a bodypack would have changed that.

 

I couldn't find any specs about it, but after a quick subjective experiment, I would say they reduce outside noises by about 6 to 7 dB. Not exactly evenly across the frequency spectrum, but not terribly unbalanced either.

 

I was using a small mixer, which might be necessary to achieve the necessary volume, but in my case it was only to add my own microphone.

 

(The 381F variant may or may not be a better choice. I didn't know about it when I bought the 381, which I did mostly because they are dirt cheap.)

[bloodyMary]

Hmm, I'll have to consider this option - use less isolating IEMs.

 

Thinking of this, I'm afraid it's a slippery path, since the earphones won't block as much noise, I'll have to crank the volume of the earphone signal, and it can possibly get out of hand..hm..

 

Well, maybe I'll try different IEMs tomorrow (I've got a pair of JBL-made which don't isolate as much as my Shure SCL's)