Sound Palette vs Work Flow

[J. Dan]

I've been going through the process of reworking a bunch of my sequences from the early 90s for my Kronos - all 80s stuff. Back then I used a Roland Sound canvas (well, initially a JV30, but same thing) and it was amazing what I could get out of it by digging deep. My sequences are full of RPN's, NRPN's, and SysEx that I used to shape every sound. Back then, I didn't store any sounds, I put all the edits into the sequences using the standard palette. The nice thing was I could plug into any Roland GS module and get the same results. I really got to know the limited soundset (including the MT-32 sound set accessed via CC:0=127) so well that there was never any question given any sound that I needed how to get it.

 

Now trying to program sounds for the Kronos and rework the sequences accordingly has been very time consuming. Even having thousands of sounds, modeling engines, sampling...some sounds require a lot more effort to achieve. And the really tough part is that there is no way to really modify a sound within the sequence, so I have to save very slight variations of sounds for all the different songs. The drums have been most challenging and I'm still most unhappy with them. Amazing what I could achieve before with a small handful of drum sets. The Kronos has every weird, way out there, crazy drum sound you can imagine, but try just finding a normal half open hi hat. Or make some small variation in the effects send level on just the snare in a set. You have to go into global and rewrite the whole thing.

 

I guess my point is that there are trade-offs. There are things the Kronos can do that a sound canvas never could, but there is also a price to pay in productivity.

[J. Dan]

Another thing I'll add about drums on the Kronos vs the way they worked on the sound canvas, regarding FX: On the sound canvas drum sets, each drum had a send level for chorus and reverb set within the set, which could be modified via sysex. On that channel, you could further set reverb/chorus levels via CC 91/93. It was relative. So say in the set, the kick was set to 0 reverb and the snare was set to 64. You could set the channel send level to 127 and have the snare dripping in reverb and still a dry kick.

 

On the Kronos, you can modifiy individual FX sends on each drum, even more so since you can route through IFX. Unfortunately it's unclear without going into global edit exactly what's routed to what. My biggest problem is that in the FX routing in a combi or song, your options are "DKit" (use the drum kit's settings" or override and route the whole thing to an IFX or MFX 1/2 levels. That completely eliminates the ability to have different FX levels on different drums. The only way to maintain the relative levels within a set and change the overall depth is by modifying MFX 1/2 return levels, which also affects all the other parts, and makes it impossible to automate FX level changes on the drum set.

 

Example: Working For the Weekend...the beginning...Cowbell 1 2 3 FAT BIG REVERB SNARE, normal set. OK, I can have a separate track with the big snare. Before, I just pumped the reverb on the "power set" snare, then backed it off and used the tighter snare in that song for the rest of the set. Real easy - one set, 2 FX send messages. Now it requires splitting notes from the sequence into separate tracks on separate channels using 2 different sets with different settings...thankfully, the capability is there, but it's a bit cumbersome.

[mate stubb]

I feel your pain. I swore off workstations because screwing with them to get them set up was killing my soul.

 

The results can be impressive however!

[J. Dan]

You know, what it boils down to is you should be able to do basic stuff without too much effort and then have the ability to dig deep. Part of that is on me. I probably could have helped myself by creating some default drum sets, patches, and song templates complete with basic effects and control routing. A little effort up front may have helped...problem is you dont know until you're asses and elbows deep.

[Leh173]

Interesting stuff Dan. Doing a "platform switch" over to Korg would have it's problems I guess. A big part of my decision process to buy the Fantom G was so I didn't have spend the time to re-learn too much, having used a lot of Roland gear in the past and it worked out well in regards to how to do things and where to look for things. I guess though if the Kronos is your thing now, putting the time in to get your head around how it thinks will be worth it.

[stillplaying]

I only know you from on here Dan, but I get the pride you take in programming to get something close to the original.

 

Just an observation - you've a lot a of experience doing this and at this point may well be better at putting a track together than the kids who knocked up the originals. If the vocals are good (and The Look is right) - maybe you simplify to a working palette of sounds you know work well live and that let you get this job done quicker.

 

You're a live band, not two guys singing along with good quality karaoke style backing tracks of the original radio version of the hits. Maybe it should be a bit rough and ready so people know it's you.

[Bosendorphen]

I have a similar experience redoing old General MIDI soundtracks I'd done for computer games in the 90s and converting them to audio using all my virtual orchestra software. A major undertaking due in part to many of the issues you brought up. Taking a lot longer than I thought!

[Tusker]

General Midi programming. Now that was a treat wasn't it?

 

I have a dog-eared copy of The Midi Files around here somewhere. It was a great book in it's time. Now I need to use it as kindling for my next barbecue.

 

It's not my place to ask but ... why not use a DAW to build audio tracks and then trigger them in Kronos? You should be able trigger sections and mute parts to create some flexibility in a live context. The work you want to re-use that you put into your MIDI programming is not the note-ons or the pan position or the wet/dry mix. It's your expert knowledge of precisely what sounds you want and how to create them.

 

Right?

[Theo Verelst]

If you're going to go "live" with a decent act on the Line-6 amps, and try sequences on there, you may want to add some "known" effects (like a cheap Lexicon, TCelectronic, Yamaha, Eventide, or even a simple EQ) to the chain, or a side-chain from secondary outputs, to be not mopho-d into a certain "sound direction" by that new equipment. Honestly, I recall when Line-6 was just a new player and I was demoing my synth and stuff on a big instruments trade show in Holland, that they were into interfacing with the good musicians, but had no illusion of scoring higher than a 6 (out of 10), as the name suggests. "Known" effects, if that's not too much to carry and set up, give you a better sound reference/feedback to get the sound of your show in directions you want (of course you probably know this better in practice than me, it;s just a hint).

 

The Yamaha and some extend their purchased Korg instruments maker politics in the sense of the "new General Midi" idea appears to have strayed into the "additive" sphere. Without having ever (!) played a Kronos/Chrome, but of course having for long played a variation of Korgs, I'd say based on the demo videos on my high Q system, that the emphasis and the harmonic undercurrents of the sounds you (and I) probably often prefer, can be constructed indeed by adding tracks/instruments.

 

My best suggestion, which I'm only sure about on Yamaha' but pretty confident about may work on the Korg as well, is to take some MIDI files from the internet, of course a no-go for decent performers, even if you'd buy them tailor-made, and only use them to get some ideas about how the various tracks combine. That's not easy, but considering you're into this a long time, you may get some essentials done that way easier.

 

T.

 

[The Real MC]

I'm spoiled by my Kurzweil MIDIBoard. It is very easy to configure MIDI stuff on it. When I was in the market recently for a MIDI controller, none of the new stuff was roadworthy, didn't have good action, and I never liked configuring "workstations" because they were too much "work". I decided to buy a 2nd used MB for the road and leave the 1st one in the studio.

 

Building sequences is far easier on the computer than on any workstation. When I want to play back sequences on stage, I use the Alesis Datadisk SQ which is a 1U compact rack. When I dump the sequence from computer to Datadisk, it just works. Would really like a modern Datadisk that uses USB storage instead of floppy disks though. The Datadisk is also great for sysex backups, which I have used for emergency restorations on rare occasions.

 

Frankly the new stuff made today does not meet my needs.

[Bill H.]

In my single and duo days I'd do my drums very much like you used to do Dan. I was a Roland guy and loved the way Roland laid out rhythm tracks, but I would actually store variations I needed on unused keys. That way I didn't have to dive into sysex.

 

Now that the economy is picking up there's a lot of single and duo work opening up in my area, and I'm thinking about getting back into it. But I've gotta tell you - no more of that fiddly stuff this time round. MP3s all the way baby...

[J. Dan]

I prefer sequences to tracks for a few reasons: easier to make adjustments/edits...especially at this phase. Go to practice and decide a part is too loud, just turn it down. Something feels too fast, change the tempo. A particular sound needs a longer release, turn a knob and it's done - no need to go back and re-record a track. 2nd, having a sequencer going means it can automate patch changes, vocal effects...heck lighting if I so desired. An mp3 can't do that. Now I COULD record audio tracks into the Kronos, but i think I'd run out of room in a hurry, plus all the points i made about keeping it editable.

 

FWIW - trying to make it sound like the CD would be easier than what i'm actually doing. I learned a long time ago that if you mixit like the CD it comes out sounding canned. Even though it IS canned, you can still make it sound like a live performance that sounds like the CD, if that makes sense. Most of the trick surrounds the drums, which is why the drum programming is so critical, and why it's giving me a headache. I try to make it sound like the drums are in the room with you as opposed to a cheesy backup track.

 

Funny you bring up the Alesis Datadisk. That's what we first started with back in the early 90s. I didn't have all of my MIDI files saved and ended up borrowing a Datadisk from a friend to recover some of my sequences off the DataDisks I still had in storage.

[rien]

Back then I used a Roland Sound canvas (well, initially a JV30, but same thing) and it was amazing what I could get out of it by digging deep.

why don't you just leverage your knowledge ?

 

a sound canvas is not the most expensive piece of gear, and it is small enough that it will easily fit into your rig. store the complete sequences (including sysex, rpn, nrpn, ...) on the kronos, and configure it so that the sequence drives the soundcanvas via midi. then you will be able to get the most out of your gear without requiring too much rework of the sequences.

[Theo Verelst]

Because that sucks!

[J. Dan]

Back then I used a Roland Sound canvas (well, initially a JV30, but same thing) and it was amazing what I could get out of it by digging deep.

why don't you just leverage your knowledge ?

 

a sound canvas is not the most expensive piece of gear, and it is small enough that it will easily fit into your rig. store the complete sequences (including sysex, rpn, nrpn, ...) on the kronos, and configure it so that the sequence drives the soundcanvas via midi. then you will be able to get the most out of your gear without requiring too much rework of the sequences.

 

While it was amazing what I could get out of it at the time for what it was, I can still do better with the Kronos. Although, I am probably going to sample a few sounds and loops out of it for a few of the songs where I particularly nailed parts and would take a lot of time to do from scratch on the Kronos.

 

I most certainly don't want to drag another module out with me and deal with mixing additional channels, etc. ALL SOUNDS IN THE KRONOS, period. I have exactly enough channels on my mixer (MG102c) for the current setup - 2 vocals, keys, sax, bass, guitar.

[J. Dan]

OK, so I FINALLY figured out part of the drum thing in the Kronos...it wasn't really clear from the manual, but makes sense now that I figured it out. OK, so to edit drums, you select a drum patch and go to Global>Drum Kit, where you can edit all kinds of stuff and save it. Except I was figuring I'd be saving the patch that I opened when I went to global. No, there's apparently some whole entire world that exists for "raw" drum kits that exist within drum programs. So you save it to USER A-1, go into USER A-1, and it's a piano (or whatever). I found you THEN have to pick a drum set or program and change it's sample location to the drum set you saved and save THAT as a program.

 

I still just can't seem to wrap my mind around the way Korg does things....and I've had a triton classic for years. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to do a sample as an EXi streaming from disk. I selected Hard Drive instead of RAM and selected a location and managed to get wav files saved to the disk. Couldn't figure out how to do anything with them except re-load them as samples in a Multi Sample just like a regular sample instead of an EXi.

 

Maybe they could come out with some sort of flow chart or diagram that illustrates the various worlds inside and how they interconnect, and what steps are needed to MAKE them interconnect.

 

And I still don't get why you can only save certain types of programs to certain banks.

 

Anyway, I just spent almost an hour on a snare and it's not quite right yet...but it's getting close.

[Leh173]

 

I still just can't seem to wrap my mind around the way Korg does things....

 

Welcome to my world.... lol

 

I'm sure it'll all make sense the more you work with it...

[J. Dan]

Just to give an idea of some of the crap I'm working on....it's 4:30am, I'm playing at church from 8:30-11:30, and duo rehearsal noon to 4. Still not happy with this one, but close enough for practice. I recorded it since there's very little guitar and one vocal, so I figured I could check out the mix. The high pitched whine you hear is the ground loop between my Kronos and My computer.

 

Bizarre Love Triangle

 

I'm playing the "harpsichord" part and the fast chords you can hear me butchering on the Keytar (AX7), and the Ah's, Hits, and Vocoder parts locally on the Kronos. Vocal's running through the Kronos, which automatically runs it through the Vocoder and mutes/unmutes direct as necessary. Basically you're hearing all Kronos. My mic goes in input 1 via a Presonus Mic Pre.

 

Being 4:30, I'm obviously pretty sloppy. Also, I think my partner's going to sing it....kind of silly for me to sing it when the guitar part is so miniscule.

 

 

Well, 17 down, 28 to go....

 

 

BTW, playing shit on Keytar is kinda tough...just sayin.

[Theo Verelst]

"That ain't no Midi file on Soundcanvas!" Cool.

 

Would you say you slightly syncopated the bass drum to a "disco bounce" effect? I mean I can hear it move a bit which sounds good, but on my monitors in damped listening space I wouldn't be able to tell the intention.

 

Theo.

[J. Dan]

"That ain't no Midi file on Soundcanvas!" Cool.

 

Would you say you slightly syncopated the bass drum to a "disco bounce" effect? I mean I can hear it move a bit which sounds good, but on my monitors in damped listening space I wouldn't be able to tell the intention.

 

Theo.

 

man, at this point, my only intention is to get this shit done! LOL, IDK, I'm just flying through it as fast as I can!!!

[J. Dan]

"That ain't no Midi file on Soundcanvas!"

 

Actually...here's one LIVE from around maybe 2002 or so...5 pc band, drummer played electric drums (pintech pads, Alesis D4), and a variation of the same sequence was playing A SOUND CANVAS! I was triggering sounds in the sound canvas via a Roland A70. That said, the vocoder was a Roland Jupiter 6 and my voice fed into a Boss SE-50 FX unit. The lead singer was not me.

 

Radio Star BLT

[J. Dan]

Oh, and one final thing that may explain the "bounce"....I've been through so many rigs over the years... Some of these sequences originated on Alesis MMT8, then went to Alesis Data Disk, then Flown into PC (with no sync)...I'm finding tracks nowhere near close to being quantized or anything else... So you may hear all kinds of crazy shit going on...who knows! I was just starting college when I did most of this shit, and we're having our 25 yr high school reunion next year.

[Theo Verelst]

The vocoder on the live band recording is nice, also, I prefer band sounds over sequences, unless of course the sequences are better.

 

I think it will depend on the PA system and the amount of mic-bleed and the particular performance space properties how well the Kronos sequences hold up. CLearly the example sounds clearer, cleaner, heavier and more varied than the canvas and Roland syth. But honestly, in the live recording there's an aspect in the sound that's missing on the Kronos as far as I can make out, a certain controlled warmth and recognizeability of the type of synth and pleasant "munch" quality of the originals of these songs when played from LP or single.

 

T

 

[J. Dan]

The vocoder on the live band recording is nice, also, I prefer band sounds over sequences, unless of course the sequences are better.

 

I think it will depend on the PA system and the amount of mic-bleed and the particular performance space properties how well the Kronos sequences hold up. CLearly the example sounds clearer, cleaner, heavier and more varied than the canvas and Roland syth. But honestly, in the live recording there's an aspect in the sound that's missing on the Kronos as far as I can make out, a certain controlled warmth and recognizeability of the type of synth and pleasant "munch" quality of the originals of these songs when played from LP or single.

 

T

 

You know, listening back to these, i definitely like the Jupiter/SE50 vododer better than the Kronos - gonna tweak it and see if i can improve. Having the Live drummer and overall performing on a stage to a crowd helps a lt too, compared to just recording the Kronos headphone out. That said, it still definitely needs some work.

 

Part of the Kronos problem for this kind of stuff is that some sounds are too good. Like the high hat. Either the open high hat has that deep realitic resonance like a real hi hat, or it's a TR808 hi hat. There arent any BAD real hi hats, like this needs to be. Lol.

 

The snare, i did my best with what was in there. I'm just going to sample a power snare with reverb and trigger it separately so i can get the right gating effect. Most of the other sounds just need minor tweaking.

 

You could spend weeks on one song if you wanted. Having to get done 45 to play a gig and ideally 60 means i have to just let some things go and hope i have time to tweek them further down the road. Our agent wants to book us starting late Oct. yesterday in practice we got through 19 songs. It's crunch time.

 

[stillplaying]

@Dan. You know it'll be good enough - and better than most - and you can do more fine tuning later. Get out here in October if it's being offered.

[Tusker]

This is very impressive Dan. I know you'll pull it together to your taste.

 

You know, listening back to these, i definitely like the Jupiter/SE50 vododer better than the Kronos - gonna tweak it and see if i can improve.

I think New Order used a Roland SVC350, and the bands might default to the same on Jupiter. (150hz, 220, 350, 500, 750, 1.1Khz, 1.6K, 2.2K, 3.6K, 8.2K roughly) (There's a low volume HPF in parallel with the band pass filters in the SVC350 to get more sibilants and fricatives to cut through.) If you don't want to move to the Jupiter, you could check if the frequencies are close on the Kronos. A couple of things you could do if you are concerned about intelligibility of words... without having to mess with the vocoder itself ...

- reduce any chorusing (rate) on the carrier signal. (I think the famous Roland ensemble circuit helps post vocoder though.)

- add a little white noise into the carrier (less than 5% volume). It will help the sibilants.

 

You may not want to mess with anything at this point. It really sounds good.

 

 

Part of the Kronos problem for this kind of stuff is that some sounds are too good. Like the high hat. Either the open high hat has that deep realitic resonance like a real hi hat, or it's a TR808 hi hat. There arent any BAD real hi hats, like this needs to be. Lol.

 

The snare, i did my best with what was in there. I'm just going to sample a power snare with reverb and trigger it separately so i can get the right gating effect. Most of the other sounds just need minor tweaking.

 

You could spend weeks on one song if you wanted.

 

I really like what you've done with the drums. It's terrific! I wonder if a very very very subtle tempo delay would help your (pulse wave) synth clav part to sit in the mix.

 

Having to get done 45 to play a gig and ideally 60 means i have to just let some things go and hope i have time to tweek them further down the road. Our agent wants to book us starting late Oct. yesterday in practice we got through 19 songs. It's crunch time.

 

Love your attention to detail, but as you pointed out there will be time for tweaks later. You'll know how the PA and signal chain are working after you've gigged V 1.0 of your setlist. If this song is any indication, your audiences are gonna love it.

[Theo Verelst]

If you're going to use Disco type sound volumes (18" and hundreds of Watts with compressed drums that sound strong, etc. ) of course you'll want to even check out how "bad" hi-hat sounds are going to resound in corners and reflection sensitive points in the listener space; or even if some kids sit close to the speakers" those modern digitals and highly Solid State modern amps and speakers may be pretty unforgiving. To emphasize the desired asyncopic effects and keep nice control over power, maybe a touch of tuned delay over the bass-drum and mild phasing of the snare. Enfin, you may know better than me.

 

I wouldn't think of a term like "crazy shit" listening to the live capturing, really. Of course many live amps/pas/mixers/effects do stuff to the materials put on them: (partial-) multi-compression, mid range spreading, high-anti-compression, warmth control or roundness-control of the big speaker distortion, etc.

 

Concerning the vocoder: there's a big difference between a cool 70s (or 80s!) vocoder effect, well produced and applied by a crafty artist and a puristic, lets say Kurzweil 2600, multi-band analyzer/modulator, just like mini-moog on a HiFi isn't the same as the Commodores on their favorite "live" album. I too think the live recording you made has authentic sounding vocoder effects which I like pretty well, and are sure to enhance the music style in a cool way.

 

I may be the type of filters in the Kronos (which I don't know at all from personal practice, I've played with vocoding a bit though) are different (IIR vs. FIR vs. FFT, resonant vs. critically damped vs non-resonant, energy constant-ness over the bands vs. little phase changes vs. segment-wise filter control, etc), or that the synth tone could require a different synth tone style (assuming you use the same vocals as before), or even that the mic+feedback has vastly different properties.

 

I've just listened to the nice vocoder parts, and I'm convinced the Kronos could do with a harmonically richer synth tone (the carrier tone) and tons of compression on various parts of the signal path (on carrier, modulator and/or output)! The neatness has it's own charm, but honestly the rich much of the older vocoder do it more for me.

 

Of course a lot of my considerations aren't based on all too "interesting" speakers and listening space: I know it;s a nice full range sound, and well balanced, but the "emphasis" and "boom" effects/controls on the PA system used will make a lot of difference. On a traditional disco-type system, I think the Kronos tracks are overcompensating amp/speaker slowness and boominess characteristics, whether that's deliberate or not.

 

T

[Phred]

I think it sounds great!!! Good job man! Good singing too!