Korg M3

[dongna]

Looking to possibly add a second keyboard to my S90ES. The reasons are primarily two-fold: 1) to add some better organ sounds (which the S-series is pretty weak at), and 2) to add a synth-action keybed to my setup.

 

I'm not a great organ player and I don't play any real heavily organ-centric songs. But I'd like to develop some organ chops, and I'd like to have some organ sounds that are better than my S90ES. I'm thinking I don't need/want a dedicated clonewheel at this point. And, as I'm a fan of picking up previous generation synths on the used market, I've sort of gleaned onto the Korg M3. In reading here and elsewhere, the M3 by all reports has one of the nicest synth-actions ever. It has highly-regarded presets, and powerful synth capabilities.

 

My question is on the M3 organ sounds. Do the stock M3 organ sounds stack up? What about with the addition of something like K-Sounds Organimation? The YouTube presentation on it seemed enticing. Does it really sound as good as they claim?

 

Also looking for opinions on the general suitability of the M3 as a complementary keyboard to the S90ES. Any and all comments welcome.

[johnchop]

Naturally, the built-in ones are sampled, and I thought they were good enough for most contexts where you need one drawbar set. Not familiar with the Organimation.

 

Rotary speaker sim and distortion FX are certainly alright, but it's not going to compare to a true "clonewheel" + something like a Ventilator in terms of control and authenticity.

 

I wouldn't buy one for that reason, but it's tremendous in so many respects.

[J. Dan]

I never had an M3...went from the Triton to the Kronos. But my take, as John said, is the biggest limiting factor is that it's not a clonewheel, but samples. Back in my Triton days, based on what I was doing at the time, I found the organ sounds decent and the leslie usable. Based on what I'm doing now, I wouldn't. I assume the M3 is a slight improvement over the Triton, but probably not a game changer.

 

I would evaluate it like this: If you can deal with a static organ sound that's decent and fast/slow leslie control, it should work for you. If you have to make any kind of on-the-fly drawbar adjustments or more detailed leslie simulation, move on.

[aellison62]

Dongna,

 

I've got the M3 and Organimation. The M3 stock organs are OK, the Organimation makes them a little better with a better Leslie sim. The M3 is a great instrument and I'm sure you will like it. Very similar to your situation, I bought the M3 to compliment my Motif ES.

 

Ultimately, after a while, I still wanted a better organ / Leslie capability and I definetly found it with a Kurzweil PC361 ( which also has a very nice action )

 

 

[Skinny]

Kurzweil PC361 ( which also has a very nice action )

+1 on the PC361 for organ, over the M3. (I haven't played either one personally), but have watched and listened to demos of Kurz KB3 mode, and it would definitely be better than anything the M3 could do, IMHO.

 

OTOH, you could get the M3 if you like everything else about it, and connect a laptop running VB3. I believe it only has 8 sliders, though, correct?

[AnotherScott]

I was going to mention the PC361 as well. Definitely better than the M3 for organ. And IMO it's pretty much as good or better than the M3 for other sounds as well... Kurz has generally been stronger than Korg for acoustic/orchestral sounds, and it also has a VA synth engine. I think it's a better MIDI controller, too. The M3 does have some advantages... the touchscreen, sampling (and the ability to load custom samples), drum pads, karma, and the ability to detach its "brain" and use it as a module. But overall, I'd take the Kurz, especially if organ is a factor.

[dongna]

Great replies everyone... thanks!

 

I'm a longtime Kurzweil guy (dating back to my 1000PX module back in the late 80's), and I had actually strongly considered the PC3X (or it may have been the PC2 at the time) when I ultimately bought my S90ES, but couldn't find one to play. So I guess I figured there would be a lot of overlap between a PC361 and my S90ES. But maybe not... just to clarify, I'm not looking for only organ-- and as I said, that's not even a primary sound I currently need. It's just one area that the S90ES is particularly weak.

 

Would the PC361 or regular PC3 (with the 76 keys) be a better organ/synth keybed?

[johnchop]

I can confirm the PC3 is much stronger in a number of areas--unless you need sampling--although I slightly preferred the VA that the RADIAS board added. The "Xpanded" M3's pop horns are better, as is (to my ears) the piano.

 

The M3/Kronos 61 still have the best non-weighted action I've ever played. Too bad they don't carry it over to their "junior" models or a controller.

 

I haven't touched the PC361 keys, but the PC3 keys are, for lack of a better word, "sproingy". It took about a week for me to get used to them initially, but I found it versatile for different kinds of playing. However, it's anything but "organ-like."

 

-John

 

PS: If you are interested in an excellent condition PC3, and live in the continental US, ping me.

[AnotherScott]

I guess I figured there would be a lot of overlap between a PC361 and my S90ES. But maybe not...

I don't think there's really any more overlap between a PC361 and the S90ES than there would be between an M3 and the S90ES.

 

just to clarify, I'm not looking for only organ-- and as I said, that's not even a primary sound I currently need. It's just one area that the S90ES is particularly weak.

Right. Are there any other non-organ sounds (or other functionalities) that you specifically would like to find in a second board?

 

There's always some subjectivity in this, but for example. out of the S90ES, PC361, and M3, I would say the Yamaha has the best acoustic piano, the Kurz has the best EPs and organ (and you could use MIDI to trigger the Kurz EPs from your Yamaha weighted action).

 

Would the PC361 or regular PC3 (with the 76 keys) be a better organ/synth keybed?

PC361 by far. It has a very nice organ/synth action, I put it in the same league as the M3 overall. (Again, subjective, I know.) The biggest difference to me is that the, as I recall, the Kurz throw is a little shallower, the Korg deeper and I think I'd actually prefer the Kurz. OTOH, the PC3 action is a whole different animal, an attempted compromise between an organ/synth action and a piano action, doing neither nearly as well as the "dedicated" actions.

[AnotherScott]

I haven't touched the PC361 keys, but the PC3 keys are, for lack of a better word, "sproingy". It took about a week for me to get used to them initially, but I found it versatile for different kinds of playing. However, it's anything but "organ-like.

 

There's a kit you can buy that is supposed to help address the "sproinginess": http://www.syntaur.com/PC3KC.html

 

But yeah, the PC3 feel is definitely not as organ-like as what is on the PC361. That would be much more comfortable for organ playing, even though that isn't a true waterfall style organ board either.

[dongna]

I'm aware of the PC3 "springyness" and I followed the spring replacement thread here a while back.

 

There aren't any specific other non-organ sounds that I'm in dire need of. Just looking to supplement anything that the S90ES is weaker at and looking to expand my overall sound palette.

 

Sounds like I should seriously reconsider the PC361... thanks again for all the good advice everyone!

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I'm well pleased with the PC361 for organ work - keyboard is nice and easy to play. Sound wise, I sold an Electro 3 when I bought the PC3. They are different Hammond emulations, but I found them in the same general range. Other sounds - PC361 is multi-timbral, very good orchestral sounds, and much more versatile than the Electro (and easier to change patches from widely different locations).

 

[Synthoid]

I was going to mention the PC361 as well. Definitely better than the M3 for organ. And IMO it's pretty much as good or better than the M3 for other sounds as well... Kurz has generally been stronger than Korg for acoustic/orchestral sounds, and it also has a VA synth engine.

 

True on organs and most orchestral stuff, plus the Kurz VA engine is superb, but the EXB-Radias with the M3 is a serious contender. Actually, I bought a hardware version of the Radias shortly after getting the M3 because I just love that knobbage.

 

About the PC3 series, I gotta say the menu diving and small view screen hinder serious editing... unless you come from a Kurzweil background, which I do not. Hence, the reason I unloaded my K2661 last year.

 

The M3 does have some advantages... the touchscreen, sampling (and the ability to load custom samples), drum pads, karma, and the ability to detach its "brain" and use it as a module.

 

The touchscreen and GUI are huge advantages. Also, Karma is great for inspiration, and/or when you just want to play along with a "virtual band."

 

[Michael W]

I had a Korg M3 61 for a while, and yes, it has fantastic synth action. Probably second only to the Access Virus TI Keyboard model, which has the BEST synth action I've ever played.

 

I had a number of nagging issues with the M3-61. One of the biggest was the lack of dedicated octave up/down buttons. That's right, it just ain't got 'em, which can be really annoying with a 61-key board. The only workaround involves the two user-definable buttons that the M3 has. You can, for example, go in on a patch-by-patch basis and program one of the buttons to go down an octave and the other to go up an octave. You have to go in and program these manually for every patch, and naturally decide what your priorities are if the programmable buttons are already being used for something else.

 

Regarding the sounds themselves - the M3 sounds very different from the standard Motif preset library. I found the M3 samples to be very high-res and detailed - lots of them sounded like they were recorded with very close microphones. I felt like my ear was inside the Rhodes, or inside the acoustic guitar, or that the bells were right next to my head. I found that by themselves, a lot of the sounds were very gorgeous, and worked well in a solo environment. However, I always found myself having to do a bit of work to get them to sit in the mix. IMHO, the Motif instruments have a rather homogenous sound across the preset library, and they play really well in the sandbox with one another. I was a bit challenged with the M3 in that regard.

 

Overall, however, understand that the M3 generally brings you the same sounds as the S90ES. Pianos (albeit different pianos), strings (but different strings), guitars (you get the idea). You do get KARMA, which I found fun to play with, but in reality had little practical application. You also get pads, which I never had use for. While the M3 is built like a tank, I have to admit that I'd be somewhat afraid to gig with it. Perhaps it's the odd shape (although the control panel can fold down by removing a couple of screws), or the white color... I dunno, I just always felt like it was an instrument best left in my home studio.

 

The organ sounds? I recall them being pretty good. Once again, perhaps a grittier and more detailed sound than I hear in the Motifs. Not different in a "big wow" kind of way.

 

If you're looking for a very interesting board with nice synth action and about 1,000 sounds that your S90ES doesn't do, take a look at the Roland Jupiter-50. I have one and love the 76-key synth action on it. The new Jupiters have ridiculously powerful VA synths under the hood, along with a mostly charming crop of Roland SuperNatural acoustic sounds. Keyboard splits and layers are easy to do, and even the 50 (which is a cut-down version of the 80) is capable of some wickedly fat layers of synth and acoustic tones. And yes, it has some really nice organ presets - I'd give it a B+. But where it shines is with a staggering collection of warm, exceptionally musical synth leads, synth pads, synth brass, synth basses, and overall really, really usable synth sounds. I wish the Jupiter had the front panel controls of my Virus TI, but I wish the TI *sounded* like the Jupiter.

 

Wow, this has to be my longest post ever.

 

[AnotherScott]

I agree, the Jupiter 50 is a great board, with a great action. It does have some clonewheel organ functionality which puts it ahead of the S90ES or the M3 on the organ front, but I think it still lags the PC361 in that respect. Still, as a complement to the S90ES that provides better organ among other things as the OP wants, yes, I could see that as a contender. Besides organ, I'd give points to the Kurz for MIDI controller functionality and aftertouch; the Roland for lightweight 76 keys and simpler operation. The Kurz has a wider range of acoustic instrument sounds, but the Roland's behavior modeling adds another dimension to the sounds it does have. As a synth, the Kurz has more depth, but with the iPad, the Jupiter has more immediacy. With the basic criteria being an organ upgrade from the S90ES but organ not being essential enough to justify a pure clonewheel at the expense of having a more versatile board overall, I think these are probably the two strongest boards to consider.

[Michael W]

AnotherScott - Thanks for the comparison. I have never even played a PC361 (or any Kurzweil for that matter), so I can't comment about it. But I am confident that your summary is spot-on.

 

I managed to pick up a floor model Jupiter-50 on ebay for less than $1,400 with free shipping and no tax. That made my purchase easier to make than the standard $1999. Prices on the Jupiters may continue to drop further, as I don't sense they're flying off the shelves. On another forum I suggested that these new Jupiters may be one of the most misunderstood keyboards ever marketed. Or not marketed. I have no idea what was going on at Roland when they designed these things.

 

 

 

[joegerardi]

Ah. But Roland really screwed the pooch on the JP-50 by omitting aftertouch on their supposed "performance" keyboard.

 

..Joe

[Stokely]

keybdwizrd said what I say: the m3 and Virus have my favorite two synth actions. I believe the pc361 action is the same fatar one as the virus. I should know, I own the virus kb and the pc361, but I'd have to sit down to really compare. Of course the programming--which is great on either--changes how you feel about the "action", but all I can say is that they are both excellent. The Virus in particular makes it so easy to control aftertouch amount and has some great velocity-driven timbre changes in the patches.

 

I bought the pc361 mainly because I needed a good organ. I did hear a nice-sounding add-on for the m3 called organimation (I think).

 

I haven't really jumped into the VA stuff on the pc361 other than using some of the factory patches. I did attempt to make a Styx oberheim fifth-above mono sound, it's ok...but so far the Virus beats it in that area, just sounds beefier and smoother all at once. Again not too fair to the pc361 as I haven't gotten far into it, my current band doesn't need those sounds. My buddy was not too happy with the m3 synth sounds, though the Radius option would likely change matters.

 

I played both the m3 and m50 before getting the pc361 and I believe I made the right decision. Organ aside (which was enough to push me over) the rest of the sounds are at least as good as the m3, with the possible exception of the horns, which seem pretty weak on the pc3. There's also all that Karma stuff, and sequencer options to compare, but I don't need any of that and can't speak to it.

[AnotherScott]

the Kurz VA engine is superb, but the EXB-Radias with the M3 is a serious contender. Actually, I bought a hardware version of the Radias shortly after getting the M3 because I just love that knobbage.

And of course, someone could also look for a Radias-R to add that functionality to a PC361 or anything else!

 

I played both the m3 and m50 before getting the pc361 and I believe I made the right decision. Organ aside (which was enough to push me over) the rest of the sounds are at least as good as the m3, with the possible exception of the horns, which seem pretty weak on the pc3.

You can upgrade the brass with the KORE64 option. Though between what's already in the PC361 and what he has in the S90ES, he may have brass covered as much as he needs.

 

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

the Kurz VA engine is superb, but the EXB-Radias with the M3 is a serious contender. Actually, I bought a hardware version of the Radias shortly after getting the M3 because I just love that knobbage.

And of course, someone could also look for a Radias-R to add that functionality to a PC361 or anything else!

 

He/she could add the sound of a Radias to any other keyboard via that route, but the integration with the M3's KARMA function wouldn't be the same. Also the EXB-Radias has two more virtual patch (modulation) slots.

[Bucktunes]

Ah. But Roland really screwed the pooch on the JP-50 by omitting aftertouch on their supposed "performance" keyboard.

Bingo. This was a serious deal breaker for me as a replacement contender for my 76 key Triton. Frustrating thing is, I love everything else about it. So close, and yet so far...