Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Tonic dominant relationship - when it's not I V


stillplaying

Recommended Posts

Thinking of melodies and tunes here - not the modern application of using modes as scale choices for improvising over sevenths chords.

 

 

Ionian mode - Tonic on I, dominant on V

 

Dorian mode (e.g. Drunken Sailor) - Tonic on I, VII acts as dominant

 

Just to clarify, by dominant chord I mean the other chord in a simple two chord tune. Drunken Sailor with starting note A, Tonic is Dm with chord of C major acting as the dominant.

 

Aeolian mode (natural minor) - tonic on I, dominant is....

 

Is it VII again or the V or either.... or?

 

Mixolydian mode - major sound due to major third, tonic on I and dominant on VII?

I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books.
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 12
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Yes. I was actually thinking of simple folk/pop tunes with a simple chordal accompaniment of just major and/or minor chords.

 

That blues-ish thing where the I, the tonic chord can be a seventh (and it confuses things further if you give it it's "dominant seventh" name), is more complicated than the sort of simple tune (older folk tunes?) that I was wondering about.

 

I'm using the word dominant to mean the other important chord in a two chord tune. The one built on the 5th note of the scale, aka the dominant, in a major scale.

I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cool exercise. I'd just be cautious with your terminology as 'Tonic' and 'Dominant' have very specific meaning in classical context. Using the same words but broadening their meaning might end up being confusing down the road.

Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

 

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section

https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I understand what the question is here. The dominant of every mode/scale is V. A tune doesn't always have to have a dominant though (see recent thread on Sweet Home Alabama).

 

There are also subdominant functions, which I think might be what you're describing (?). The most common example of that is what's called the Plagal cadence (IV to I).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Whistle", a #1 Billboard 100 hit from last year by Flo Rida is typical. It's in A- and it's V never occurs:

 

||: A- F | C G :||

 

Then there are the "Spanish progression" type tunes:

 

|| A- G | F G :|| (That's The Way Love Goes by Janet Jackson)

 

Or this type:

 

||: C- Eb |Ab F :|| (Dynamite by Taio Cruz, Die Young by Keisha)

 

Or this:

 

||: C Bb | F :|| (Sympathy For The Devil, Hey Jude, Taking Care Of Business, etc.)

 

Maybe go study the 4 chord pop progressions, there's quite a few...

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

V also likes to go to vi or IV, it's neighbors (evaded resolutions)

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Over the years I've come to question whether, in rock music, IV-I resolutions aren't more important than V-I resolutions. I extend this thought to secondaries, i.e. that secondary subdominants are more important in rock than secondary dominants (see e.g. the recent Sweet Home Alabama thread).

 

Look at the four examples Jazz+ gives above. Three of the four have a descending-fourth chord change (F-C in each case). His last example has two descending-fourths (Bb-F then F-C, the notorious "Werewolves of Alabama" changes). All within simple three- or four-chord progressions.

 

My older daughter recently asked me what kinds of questions psychomusicologists research. I think I'm going to run this one past her!

 

Larry.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cygnus64 if it's in D (Dorian) - Melody starting on A, I was just thinking of accompaniment chords going back and forth from Dm to C. Have you got another chord in there for "early"? The A minor?

 

O/T thanks all for the replies so far. It's a tiny little bit of the musical jigsaw that I've been wondering about for a while.

 

Also O/T logged on this morning and I'm a little intimidated by my own sig photo. Think I need something less ... it really does look like I've had a horn removed.

I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jazz plus - yes to those examples but they're more sophisticated (and modern) than I was considering. The Hey Jude example - saw someone on here calling it a mixolydian cadence.

 

Clarification on "dominant". I'm thinking of the names of the notes (European Classical music theory lessons). In C major.

 

C tonic

D super tonic (super meaning above)

E mediant (the note halfway between the tonic and the dominant)

F subdominant (sub meaning underneath)

G dominant (the chords built on this note dominate the harmony)

A submediant (?)

B leading note (leads to the tonic, resolves up a semitone)

C tonic

 

Submediant - someone told me it's midway between the subdominant and the tonic. Never liked that explanation (didn't bother me, like many of these things, until you have to teach it to the next generation).

 

Thought about sub meaning secondary - subdominant, submediant. Always felt it worked better for submediant (think of Am standing in for F major) than the subdominant (F major standing in for G major or even G7). I mean this when considering music like folk tunes, lullabies, playground songs, - I know the notes of F major, F A C are 7 9 11 and common extensions for the G in more sophisticated styles.

I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Submediant - someone told me it's midway between the subdominant and the tonic. Never liked that explanation (didn't bother me, like many of these things, until you have to teach it to the next generation).

 

Thought about sub meaning secondary - subdominant, submediant. Always felt it worked better for submediant (think of Am standing in for F major) than the subdominant (F major standing in for G major or even G7). I mean this when considering music like folk tunes, lullabies, playground songs, - I know the notes of F major, F A C are 7 9 11 and common extensions for the G in more sophisticated styles.

 

Dominant - fifth above

Subdominant - fifth below

Mediant - third above (half way to dominant)

Submediant - third below (half way to subdominant)

 

That's how I think of it, and it kind of makes sense to me.

Yamaha CP4 Stage

Kurzweil PC361

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...