going to in-ears (I think)

[Stokely]

After the last few gigs, laying in bed with my ears ringing, I think I'm ready to give in-ears a try. I was thinking to do so from a "I want to hear things more clearly" perspective but now I'm looking to reduce overall volume. I'm typically very close to the drummer on the stages we play...we are a 6-piece and it gets tight sometimes. Also one of two guitar amps is usually too close for comfort.

 

I was considering a new powered monitor as it was--been using some cheapie 12s that especially can't handle piano well--and for a good bit less than most of the "good' ones I can get into a wired bodypack and some earbuds. I get my own monitor send from a line6 soundscape (which incidentally will allow me to control my own mix via ipad once I'm up to speed on it). I was thinking I might be able to get away with just earbuds and my Rolls line mixer, which I'm not using as a submixer at the present, but it doesn't have a limiter. Our bass player, who owns the mixer, says there is a limiter on the output of the send but I'm not sure that is as safe as having one in the headphone amp itself. fwiw I don't need wireless, a wired bodypack would be fine.

 

One downside is that most of the band uses wedges and wants me to have an "amp" on stage. This is mainly due to the fact that our monitors are not the best and they try to keep them mostly vocals. (We play small/medium clubs). So I wouldn't really be saving any shlep or hassle as I'd still be setting up a keys speaker until the monitors are upgraded (which is on the table). Not a huge deal and it would be a set-and-forget as I wouldn't be listening to it!

 

A few people have strongly recommended multi-driver earbuds. I've also had a few people say single-driver buds like the Shure E215 will be fine. I gather it may depend on whether you need clear bass in there...I'd like to say I wouldn't but if they cut say 35db perhaps I'd want some bass in there. Our singer uses those Shures and she's pretty happy with them. I'm leaning in that direction, and one reason is that if I decide to go back to wedges I won't feel *too* bad with $99 earphones to block my coworker's chatter

 

Anyway, lots of blather, interested in anyone's perspective on going in this direction.

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

If you could borrow a mixer you could give it an experimental try without spending too much dough .... run your keys through a mixer and then take the headphone jack to the IEM and see how effective they are. I'm guessing with the right IEM's they would also block alot of the on stage 'noise' as well.

[Tonysounds]

Keep your present powered monitor onstage for the band. Go in ears.

Lots of choices and opinions regarding single/multi driver options. A killer single driver option are the Atria by Futuresonics. $179 factory direct, they stomp, kick, punch, beat the $hit out of my Shure E5 (dual drivers). Less hyped sounding than the Shure buds, which means less ear fatigue, and you can listen to them longer. Ear Fatigue will prompt you to turn up, negating the benefits of in ears.

 

[Stokely]

I actually did try it with my Rolls mixer at one gig using the singer's Shure 215s (she was trying out a 3-driver set, all with non-used ends on them I must say, otherwise gross!). That was good as she could compare those (Ultimate Ears I think) to the Shures, and she did say they sounded better...but perhaps not night-and-day better. That's also the gig where I got the "you still need an amp" comment from the band..as I say once the monitors are beefed up they should be able to handle keys in all the wedges.

 

For my part I was able to hear the keys way better. I never have issues hearing vocals in monitors usually so that was good either way. I can't say it was especially comfortable having the earbuds in, but then neither is being right next to a crash cymbal ;-)

 

I've also just considered earplugs but even with good ones it's not ideal.

 

Edit: thanks for the additional suggestion, I'll check those.

 

Any wired bodypack suggestions? Or will I be ok if the mixer has a digital onboard limiter on the send output?

 

I was considering this pack+ears, seems cheaper than if bought separately:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004S2JX7W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[Sparky2]

I've been using Shure SE425 dual drivers and, although not custom fitted, one of the provided black tips works well for my ears. I can work with them 4-5 hours in the summer and they are comfortable. I run them off my keyboard mixer headphone out and just add a monitor send from the monitor mixer/FOH into a spare channel on my mixer. I recently added a Rolls SL33B limiter in line between the headphone out and the Shures. I run the threshold as low as possible and can't get the limiter to kick in so I'm not sure how necessary this is for me. The Shures isolate pretty well and I don't need much volume off the mixer or limiter. I checked the limiter out with some loud program music and small speakers so I know it is working properly. I'll leave it in just in case. $40 for ear insurance isn't bad..... And I just use a headphone extension cable clipped to my belt, thereby giving me 20' to roam while still protecting the Shure's (replaceable) cable.

 

Mark

[Stokely]

Yeah I tend to be a bit paranoid when it comes to heaphones....I know speakers can get you too, but I have a good friend that pretty much destroyed his hearing doing a church gig when someone cranked things wide open on him.

 

I'll check out that limiter as I do have the small Rolls mixer that can work as a headphone amp. That might be the cheapest option for now. Of course I may end up using it as a submixer, guess I'll cross that bridge when I get another board in the rig ;-)

 

Those Future Sonics earbuds seem to get great reviews on various boards.

[J. Dan]

I don't loke the dual driver IEM's because they muddy up the mix due to too much bass. They sound great just listening to music, but not so much for monitoring, especially if you sing. You know how if you stick your fingers in your ears and sing, you get the mufffled head sound? Well now imagine instead of your fingers, it's IEM's so you turn up the volume, except you're turning up that muffled bass with it. I like IEM's that are mostly mids. I use the shure 315's and like them. Usually you get bass from the FOH sound. The IEM's don't really block out the low frequencies, so you have to turn up the volume in your ears to match that level. You can never do that if they're piping more bass into your ears at the same time. Just my $0.02

 

[timwat]

Dan - what do you feed to your IEMs? Just you (keys and vox) or full mix. You've probably described that in another thread so forgive me for the repeat.

 

I'm getting frustrated with monitoring in the funk band and considering doing me-only in-ears...

[J. Dan]

Whole mix. You have to because it blocks everything out. I get a really good isolation - only hear what's in my ears. In fact, i've had to had to have them mic the high hat when they wouldnt otherwise so i can hear it in my ears when he's counting us off during breaks.

 

I've gotten to the point where i'll only use them if i can get my own mix. If not, I'll run my vocal and keys through my K10 for a monitor (the rest of the band is loud enough).

[timwat]

Got it. Thanks mayne.

[Stokely]

Any additional thoughts on the limiter factor?

 

I know there is one in the chain, but it's in the digital console. However, I'm optimistically hoping that if I keep the signal reasonably low at the headphone amp (rolls mixer or future purchase) I may not need one further in the chain. If so I just need earbuds and I'm off! And I'd be able to justify better (more $$) earbuds if that's my only purchase so that's a real bonus.

 

The only think I don't like about that small Rolls limiter is the RCA connectors, but it's not a show stopper. Not super expensive to be sure but I'd prefer to keep the connections as simple as possible.

 

Bottom line though is I don't want to be penny wise pound foolish with hearing. I'm killing it now but it's by degrees, I certainly don't want a giant blast of feedback/amp noise/mic drop etc to make me deaf in one shot...

[Analogaddict]

I'm thinking you'll want the limiter as close to your ears as possible. Since there'll be a mix of IEM:s and monitors, you could easily end up with a dose of unhealthy feedback. I have a system from Fischer amps which has dual stereo inputs and a limiter. It also has a sub out if you want to use a buttkicker or a sub.

[J. Dan]

The Shure wireless bodypack can be used by itself wired without the transmitter, and has the limiter built in. You may consider buying just a bodypack (you can get them fairly inexpensive used, or for less than half the price of a whole system new). With that, you've got the limiter, a volume knob at easy reach, and in the future if you decided to go wireless, you'd only have to buy the transmitter. Just a thought.

[Canoehead]

I suggest dropping Mike Volkerding at http://www.ineargear.com/home.html an email. I found him very helpful and informative and didn't feel like he was just trying to sell me gear.

 

Regards,

Gord

[Stokely]

Definitely leaning toward that bodypack, especially if I can find it used. My rolls mixer will likely be needed as a submixer in the future (when I can add a stage piano to the rig). Ideally they'd make a cheaper wired-only pack, as I have no desire for wireless, but I haven't seen one.

[eric]

I went to IEMs over 2 years ago and have been super happy with them. We have a couple of mega threads on IEMs somewhere on the forum. I went wireless and custom molded 3 way from Ultimate Ears. Sub mixer for stereo feed of band plus I have separate stereo key mix and I can dial these in to taste. My band has gradually been getting lazy with their IEMs - at one point 5 out of 6 players used them and now down to 3 or 4, but still working well for those that stuck with them. Vocalists always seem to have more challenges with them.

 

I am convinced that my IEM rig, while not cheap, was the best gear purchase I've made.

 

Here's a thread you may want to read

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2303404

 

[Joe Muscara]

The Shure wireless bodypack can be used by itself wired without the transmitter, and has the limiter built in. You may consider buying just a bodypack (you can get them fairly inexpensive used, or for less than half the price of a whole system new). With that, you've got the limiter, a volume knob at easy reach, and in the future if you decided to go wireless, you'd only have to buy the transmitter. Just a thought.

Is that the Shure P2R?

[J. Dan]

The Shure wireless bodypack can be used by itself wired without the transmitter, and has the limiter built in. You may consider buying just a bodypack (you can get them fairly inexpensive used, or for less than half the price of a whole system new). With that, you've got the limiter, a volume knob at easy reach, and in the future if you decided to go wireless, you'd only have to buy the transmitter. Just a thought.

Is that the Shure P2R?

 

Yep, that's it. I've got 2 of them (and one transmitter). I bought the second as a spare in my old band, though the guitar player in my current band is interested in buying my spare since he has a transmitter and somehow lost the belt pack along the way. I typically use it wireless, but I've plugged in wired at home before.

 

If you look on ebay, there seems to be 2 "buy it now" prices - $289 and $329. However, if you keep an eye out for the actual auctions, you can pick 'em up for more like $150.

[ksoper]

A killer single driver option are the Atrio by Futuresonics. $179 factory direct...

 

Tony, I bought these last year on your recommendation--still very happy with them. I told a family member about them last month and we went to the FS site--they're out of production! There were still a few on Amazon but the price had increased.

 

Had these been available years ago I don't think I would've bought UE5 molds. They're very nice for the money. I tried the UE triple-driver monitors when they first came out and wasn't impressed enough to upgrade.

[stillplaying]

A few years back I did three months with a band covering for their guy who uses in ears - as did the drummer.

 

Pair of Sony jogging headphones did the trick. Had to buy them quickly and intended to get a proper set of IEMs. Drummer asked to try mine out for a tune at a so uncheck and was horrified at how well they sounded - given what he'd paid for his.

 

Anyway, good luck - my suggestion as you've mentioned going wired - try a set of jogging ones and a cheap line mixer. I'm presuming your keys are going to the main PA and you know what they sound like. If it's just for levels and to hear what you're playing - maybe try the budget option first?

[Theo Verelst]

I still can't imagine the ear buds/plugs to do what I would think they should. No way a decent PA+monitor level (without annoying components, but with "normal" power) would be blocked by any contraption, and playing with headphones is a very tricky game, unless you know what you're doing. Most likely playing with those buds "changes something" and makes setting up easier, but I can't be easily convinced I like the sonic properties of the idea myself, especially for zero-delay instruments (and singing) and when using digital mixing (the "delay gap" *and* ever present DA converter distortion easily interfering with binorals). But I haven't tried.

 

T

[Losendoskeys]

My band have been using IEM's from the outset in 2006.

Whilst the egg slicer player has recently "found" he "needs" a real amp on stage, the rest are all receiving signal from a Behringer X32 desk via our own individual P16 monitor mixer.

It is nothing short of brilliant - you can adjust yourself and the rest of the individuals in the band levels and eq.

I've tried Shure but they are poor compared to my £200 Ultimate Ears with Ultra Bass - we use bass pedals and they hardly register on the Shures.

You set your own personal limiter on the P16.

 

Never looked back - tried wedges last year with anotherband and couldn't hear a bloody thing.

[Joe Muscara]

Is that the Shure P2R?

 

Yep, that's it. I've got 2 of them (and one transmitter). I bought the second as a spare in my old band, though the guitar player in my current band is interested in buying my spare since he has a transmitter and somehow lost the belt pack along the way. I typically use it wireless, but I've plugged in wired at home before.

 

If you look on ebay, there seems to be 2 "buy it now" prices - $289 and $329. However, if you keep an eye out for the actual auctions, you can pick 'em up for more like $150.

Cool, thanks. Yeah, I checked eBay and only saw the new "Buy It Now" ones too. I'll keep an eye out for the real auctions.

[J. Dan]

I still can't imagine the ear buds/plugs to do what I would think they should. No way a decent PA+monitor level (without annoying components, but with "normal" power) would be blocked by any contraption, and playing with headphones is a very tricky game, unless you know what you're doing. Most likely playing with those buds "changes something" and makes setting up easier, but I can't be easily convinced I like the sonic properties of the idea myself, especially for zero-delay instruments (and singing) and when using digital mixing (the "delay gap" *and* ever present DA converter distortion easily interfering with binorals). But I haven't tried.

 

T

 

You'd be surprised how good the isolation can be. Of course it depends on your ears and the tips provided - which is why a lot of people go with custom molded. When first started on IEM's the original Shure E2's that came with the system didn't fit my ear canals and I always struggled to get a good seal. But the se315's with the stock black tips do great.

 

Once you get that seal, it's like matic. You can hear exactly what you want to hear and less of what you don't, all at a reasonable level. A lot of times vocalists don't like it at first, but it's because they finally hear what they REALLY sound like - they aren't used to hearing themselves sound so bad. But when you hear yourself that clearly it pushes you to perfect your performance, which makes it sound that much better out front. I've never noticed any kind of delay - in fact just the opposite since you have no room effects going on - now slapback of the PA off the far wall, etc....just everything piped directly into your head.

 

Now i WILL say this - with IEM's, a good mix is more critical than ever. If it's not in your mix, it's just plain gone. And if one thing is too hot, it can completely replace everything else. I always prefer to have control over my own mix, but have had decent results with good sound guys. There's little room for error in the mix with IEM's, for sure.

[GDP]

I would consider molded in ears for isolation and much better sonic detail, and they do not have to be that expensive....it is your hearing after all.

 

1964 Ears is a great company...they have dual drivers up to six driver models. Duals starting at $350.

 

http://www.1964ears.com/products.html

[timwat]

So for bands without a dedicated monitor guy will it work to use a two-channel system with Ch1 = me and Ch2 = rest of band?

 

I'm sold on IEMs in a great situation. I used them for years at a fixed-install (church) where we had the Hearback system, so you fine tuned your own custom mix. That was aces.

 

But in varying band situations - sometimes we run our own sound (and honestly, our sound guys aren't great), and sometimes we have an outside sound company (and no regular vendors there..)

 

So I was thinking of taking a feed off a stage wedge, padding it back down to line level via one of the DIs that does that, and using that as Ch2 of my existing 2-ch IEM system.

 

I realize that's not ideal - but in a band where 1) stage volume creeps up quickly and 2) no one else is dedicated to IEMs, is this a possible solution?

 

Or am I SOL?

 

 

[J. Dan]

So for bands without a dedicated monitor guy will it work to use a two-channel system with Ch1 = me and Ch2 = rest of band?

 

I've done it exactly like that before and it CAN work, depending on whose mix I'm getting for "the rest of the band". If your "me" channels is keyboards and you don't sing, that will most likely work just fine. In my case I have ME (keys), ME (vocals), ME (sax), and the rest of the band...plus the fact that if they don't mic the hi hat and it's not in the "rest of the band" mix, i can't hear the drummer counting us off. So i managed to get by doing that for a while, but eventually decided if I can't get my own mix, to ditch the IEM's in favor of my K10. I bring them both so I can opt to use either.