Live Keyboard/VI rig

[Bent6]

Hello everyone!

 

I am building a rig for playing live. Simply put, I am looking to build a hybrid keyboard/VI rig that I can use to cover any parts I need to with bands. I have a Hammond SK1 and will be adding either a MIDI controller or other keyboard as a second board.

 

I'm looking for:

 

1. Software that will host virtual instruments and allow patch switching on a song by song basis.

 

2. Software that will allow me to incorporate my SK1 (and perhaps a second keyboard) into the song patches, both as controllers & sound sources. Mapping controllers (wheels, pedals) on a patch by patch basis would be terrific.

 

3. A fairly inexpensive secondary controller or synth that can be split for internal sounds or MIDI control that can be saved as addressable performances/combis. Extra points for a USB connection and MIDI ports that can allow the SK1 to connect in without carrying an extra MIDI interface. I have no need for an 88 key weighted controller - 61 or 73 unweighted would be great.

 

4. An inexpensive computer that I can utilize with this rig. Preferably one I can customize as adding RAM, SSDs, etc are great future upgrades.

 

 

Initially I considered a Korg Kronos 61 with the SK1. I'd be able to play out without a laptop, and the setlist features would allow me to do everything I need. However, the $3K price tag isn't feasible at this time.

 

I also know Mainstage 3 should do everything I ask (while adding a MIDI controller). However, my Mac laptop is far too dated to run Mainstage with low latency/no clicks. And I really don't want to attempt to carry my main studio computer to gigs. At this point, a new Mac laptop, controller, and software are out of reach.

 

Are there more reasonable ways to put a rig like this together? I have some ideas I've researched, but I wanted to put this out to the community knowing there are solutions out there I have missed.

 

I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Welcome to the forum, Ken!

 

1. Software that will host virtual instruments and allow patch switching on a song by song basis.

Brainspawn Forte is IMO the pick of the live VI hosts out there. EXCELLENT song/setlist switching capabilities. Other contenders are Bloxpander, Bidule (for geekier stuff). Many here use Cantabile, but I've found serious CPU usage bugs in it.

 

2. Software that will allow me to incorporate my SK1 (and perhaps a second keyboard) into the song patches, both as controllers & sound sources. Mapping controllers (wheels, pedals) on a patch by patch basis would be terrific.

ALL of the above listed hosts will allow you to use any keyboard that sends MIDI as controllers, and let you map any wheels/knobs/sliders/buttons/pedals on a per patch basis.

 

3. A fairly inexpensive secondary controller or synth that can be split for internal sounds or MIDI control that can be saved as addressable performances/combis.

Heads-up - do NOT look for splits/other MIDI "control features" in a live rig. Splits, performance/combi features are handled by live hosts like Forte, much better than any hardware keyboard out there. You can have as many splits/layers as you like, wherever you want over the keyboard!

 

4. An inexpensive computer that I can utilize with this rig. Preferably one I can customize as adding RAM, SSDs, etc are great future upgrades.

Buy a laptop with the fastest processor available - 3rd gen quad-core i7 laptops are available refurb for as $600-$700. RAM, SSDs can be maxed out later, but CPU cannot.

 

Are there more reasonable ways to put a rig like this together? I have some ideas I've researched, but I wanted to put this out to the community knowing there are solutions out there I have missed.

 

I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

Click here for a recent discussion on the pros and cons of a live VI rig.

 

Again, welcome to the forum...!

 

- Guru

[Bent6]

Guru,

 

Thanks for the great reply! I'll check out the pros/cons list as soon as I get a chance.

 

Once again, thank you!

[J. Dan]

Initially I considered a Korg Kronos 61 with the SK1. I'd be able to play out without a laptop, and the setlist features would allow me to do everything I need. However, the $3K price tag isn't feasible at this time.

 

FYI - our own forum member, Moonglow, has a mint Kronos 61 up for sale on the classifieds for $1700.

clonk

[Ashville.Guru]

2. Software that will allow me to incorporate my SK1 (and perhaps a second keyboard) into the song patches, both as controllers & sound sources. Mapping controllers (wheels, pedals) on a patch by patch basis would be terrific.

ALL of the above listed hosts will allow you to use any keyboard that sends MIDI as controllers, and let you map any wheels/knobs/sliders/buttons/pedals on a per patch basis.

Caveat - any wheels/knobs/sliders/buttons/pedals can be mapped, provided they send standard midi CCs. There are a few boards out there that don't do this, but they are the exception. Check the documentation before making a purchase.

 

Also, while looking for controllers, bear in mind that it doesn't have to be a dedicated controller to work well with VIs - with internal sounds, you get backup option as bonus...! There are some better actions to be had in full synths than in dedicated controllers, and at about the same price range. Also, used older synths make great controllers with little investment.

 

- Guru

[Synthoid]

FYI - our own forum member, Moonglow, has a mint Kronos 61 up for sale on the classifieds for $1700.

clonk

 

Thinking about that one myself.

 

 

[midinut]

I'm trying to set up something similar myself. I just picked up an M-Audio Keystation 88es for a bottom-tier 88-note controller and Cantabile Solo. I'll be hooking all this up in the next few days trying to sort it all out. I have a couple of choices for an upper tier board (as you can see from my sig). Gonna first try it out at rehearsal without any upper tier, just to see what I can do with it. Also picked up an Arturia MiniLab which is cool as hell for controlling my iPad. Gonna try to incorporate that into the stage rig as well.

[Doc Tonewheel]

You can try out Forte 3 to see if you like it.

 

http://www.brainspawn.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=66

 

Here's a link to an article on Marillion's keyboard player (Mark KellY0 who's using it live.

 

www.soundonsound.com/pdfs/marillionforte.pdf‎

 

[J. Dan]

I'm trying to set up something similar myself. I just picked up an M-Audio Keystation 88es for a bottom-tier 88-note controller and Cantabile Solo. I'll be hooking all this up in the next few days trying to sort it all out. I have a couple of choices for an upper tier board (as you can see from my sig). Gonna first try it out at rehearsal without any upper tier, just to see what I can do with it. Also picked up an Arturia MiniLab which is cool as hell for controlling my iPad. Gonna try to incorporate that into the stage rig as well.

 

Out of curiosity, what are you wanting from the VI's that you can't get out of the Kronos? I have my Kronos top tier and use a 76-key controller on the lower tier triggering sounds in the Kronos. Very simple - one midi cable, one audio source (no submixing), set everything up in one box.

[DulceLabs.com]

Ken - What VI's are you thinking about running and how may will you might you be running simultaneously?

[midinut]

I'm trying to set up something similar myself. I just picked up an M-Audio Keystation 88es for a bottom-tier 88-note controller and Cantabile Solo. I'll be hooking all this up in the next few days trying to sort it all out. I have a couple of choices for an upper tier board (as you can see from my sig). Gonna first try it out at rehearsal without any upper tier, just to see what I can do with it. Also picked up an Arturia MiniLab which is cool as hell for controlling my iPad. Gonna try to incorporate that into the stage rig as well.

 

Out of curiosity, what are you wanting from the VI's that you can't get out of the Kronos? I have my Kronos top tier and use a 76-key controller on the lower tier triggering sounds in the Kronos. Very simple - one midi cable, one audio source (no submixing), set everything up in one box.

 

It's not so much about what I can or can't get out of my Kronos. I'm just looking for a way to leave my expensive boards in the studio and take a less expensive rig out that will (hopefully) get the job done without sacrificing quality.

[Ashville.Guru]

Out of curiosity, what are you wanting from the VI's that you can't get out of the Kronos? I have my Kronos top tier and use a 76-key controller on the lower tier triggering sounds in the Kronos. Very simple - one midi cable, one audio source (no submixing), set everything up in one box.

I'm curious about this, too - especially since you can sample any VI into the Kronos...! With exceptions like evolving complex synth sounds, and organ, of course.

 

- Guru

[midinut]

I guess some of my logic involves having spent that much money on one keyboard, I'm probably a bit paranoid about it getting bumped, bruised, nicked, and so on. Me being the cheap bastard that I am, I went around playing a DGX-500 for many years and left my more expensive boards at home. I never knew when someone's beer was gonna get spilled on it, or it was going to get slung in the back of a trailer with the other gear, etc. I always figured it would less expensive to replace a DGX than a Karma, ES6, M3, or now a Kronos. Welcome to the warped way my mind works. lol

[J. Dan]

Are you one of those people who keeps the plastic wrap on your furniture, and nobody's allowed to sit on it?

[Stokely]

I follow the same logic that midinut does, for live use I would not want something too expensive for various reasons. One reason I appreciate heavy keyboards is that they don't move easily, people bump stuff (usually the band). I also appreciate being in the back as usually it would be harder for drunks to fall into my stuff. When you start talking laptops I worry about thieves a bit...I like to go outside between sets to decompress and I'd have to take it with me. In short I like "hit the switch and go" for live.

 

I use software at home--mainly due the extreme convenience vs hooking up audio, saving patches etc...I can move my "studio" anywhere to remix etc since it is a laptop--so I can't justify paying a ton for keyboards that will only be used for my weekend gigging. If I was a pro musician or had tons of disposable income (I have two kids! hahahahahaha disposable income, that's a good one....) I might think otherwise.

 

The other thing about live is that I'd like to have two boards for redundancy, despite the extra hassle. I could easily get by with one--and in fact I am right now--but if that one has issues I'm toast. I've had keyboards flake out on me, not often but it does happen.

 

One Kronos-specific thing that bothers me is the apparent long boot-up time. I'd definitely have a battery backup with one, we've been known to trip circuit breakers at outdoor patio-type gigs (ie places not ideal for big bands).

[midinut]

Hey Dan - No I don't keep the plastic on the furniture. I suppose some of it has to do with busting my ass all my life at music only to lose several keyboard rigs in three divorces and being darned picky about my studio gear, that's all. Okay, and maybe a touch of OCD ... but I figure I'm not the only one around here with that! lol

 

Stokely - I've gotten used to the 3 min boot time by now. My ES6 has the full amount of sample RAM installed and sometimes takes over a minute (depending on what I have loaded in it), and I agree that a battery backup would be money well spent in either of my cases here. I know I can do any gig with just the Kronos 61 and that's comforting. I have a hard case for it, I'm not too worried about it or a laptop getting stolen as we mostly play in Shrine clubs where there may be drunks, but they are basically good honest folks in general. So, it could still play out either way. I just really want to see see how far I can go with just a controller, laptop, and VI's. I will keep you posted.

[DulceLabs.com]

I understand. I had a nice pair of Rollerblades. I was afraid to wreck them, so I kept them in a box. Do you know what happened? I outgrew them. I never wore them outside. Only in my room a few times.

[midinut]

I understand. I had a nice pair of Rollerblades. I was afraid to wreck them, so I kept them in a box. Do you know what happened? I outgrew them. I never wore them outside. Only in my room a few times.

 

Point taken. I was messing around with Catabile/controller earlier. First I couldn't get the latency below 10ms which sucked. Then I find out that HALion Sonic SE (which comes with Cubase 7 and I was planning on using as a "Workstation") is not standalone. It only works inside Cubase. Now if I upgrade to the full version...

 

Regarding the latency, in all fairness, I did not try ASIO4all. I DID make sure I had all the latest drivers for everything I had plugged into the PC before I plugged any USB cables in. When setting up Cantabile, I didn't see any of my audio or MIDI devices listed. I'm sure if I mess around with it some more, I cn gt it figured out.

 

In the meantime, I hooked the Kronos up to the 88-key controller and am going to set up some Combis and see how that works. Question ... MIDI cable fom Kronos to controller, or USB? What would you use? Thanks in advance.

[DulceLabs.com]

 

Regarding the latency, in all fairness, I did not try ASIO4all.

 

Adding the ASIO4ALL driver changed my latency to barely acceptable to barely perceptible.

[midinut]

I'll load that up and give it a whirl. Thanks!

[J. Dan]

I would think a Kronos would handle a beer spill better than a laptop. Laptop + VI's + interface = not much less than a Kronos. But I DO understand what you're saying. I stopped gigging with my vintage analog keyboards. My primary use is Live, not studio, so I'm kind of opposite - if I spend the money, I don't want to leave it home collecting dust. I spent most of my musical career playing out with stuff that was a decade behind the times, and lower level technology even in its prime. So to have something like the Kronos is a dream for e to take out live.

 

I just use a short MIDI cable. I prefer it for frequent gigging to a USB connection. I think it's just more robust of a connection, but that's just my opinion. I figure it was made for that and hasn't failed me in 25 years. USB was designed for computers.

[midinut]

Thanks Dan. It seems that my controller (M-Audio Keystation 88es) is bus powered and you can order an optional power supply for it. I've got a MIDI cable hooked up to it but no power. I downloaded ASIO4ALL and have updated all my drivers (again). Just did a reboot and am smoking a cigarette on the porch before I go try it again. My intention was to plug the Keystation into the laptop via USB, then plug either the Kronos or my new little MiniLab into the laptop and use Cantabile to set everything up in splits and layers and put them into sets. I'm using an Alesis MultiMix8 USB Mixer as an audio interface. I thought it sounded pretty simple, at least in my mind it did. As with most computer upgrades/modifications, things usually never work out quite like we plan.

 

Okay, here we go again ... Wish me luck!

[Bent6]

Can't believe the number of comments! Thanks! Lots of great insights.

 

Ken - What VI's are you thinking about running and how may will you might you be running simultaneously?

 

Mostly bread and butter synths, pianos, electric pianos. I'm honestly as interested in using the computer to control the hardware as I am for VIs - for instance, stepping through a song list for patch changes.

 

I'm currently dusting off an old Black MacBook (dumping junk from drives, reformatting, etc) to see if it could run MainStage 2 without too much difficulty. It could save a bunch of money!

 

As for which plug-ins I'm really wanting to use, the logic set covers most of what I'm looking for. I do really like Mach 5 v3, but dealing with it would be overkill for a small live rig. Also, I'd rather avoid dongles if at all possible.

 

Down the road the Pianoteq instrument, NI FM8, and a few others may be added to cover specific sounds more accurately.

 

 

[ABECK]

Slightly OT - I spent $600 on a lens for my DSLR, but was afraid to take it out with me anywhere. I finally realized I wasn't going to get any good pics with it sitting in the box. Now I'm pretty casual with it (not reckless). I decided to take pics instead of worry. My pics are better for it.

[DulceLabs.com]

Can't believe the number of comments! Thanks! Lots of great insights.

 

Ken - What VI's are you thinking about running and how may will you might you be running simultaneously?

 

Mostly bread and butter synths, pianos, electric pianos. I'm honestly as interested in using the computer to control the hardware as I am for VIs - for instance, stepping through a song list for patch changes.

 

I'm currently dusting off an old Black MacBook (dumping junk from drives, reformatting, etc) to see if it could run MainStage 2 without too much difficulty. It could save a bunch of money!

 

As for which plug-ins I'm really wanting to use, the logic set covers most of what I'm looking for. I do really like Mach 5 v3, but dealing with it would be overkill for a small live rig. Also, I'd rather avoid dongles if at all possible.

 

Down the road the Pianoteq instrument, NI FM8, and a few others may be added to cover specific sounds more accurately.

 

 

Those shouldn't tax the system too much - wiping the old Mac and re-installing what you need may be enough. Good luck.. let us know how it works!