dipping my toe into a soft future

[Ian Sharrock]

Just run a full rehearsal with my laptop & Cantabile instead of the V-machine.... SMPro's little box is just too limiting for where I want to go with VSTi's. Especially with my impending upgrade of VB3 (whenever that comes out... I know V-machine won't handle the upgrade. It just about runs the previous release!)

 

My main concern was the thing freezing on me but it was on all night without a murmur

 

It's also liberating to know I can finally run ME80 & the like in a live set-up.

 

I'm also awaiting the comments at the gig..... "They're not playing, its all on computer"..... (even though we're a 4 piece with acoustic drums & both kinds of guitar!)

 

Yeah, I know I've been slow on the uptake but I put it all down to a particularly disastrous gig in the mid '80s with MIDI & an electronic drum kit

[DulceLabs.com]

I'm also awaiting the comments at the gig..... "They're not playing, its all on computer".....

 

I think audiences are getting used to seeing laptops and iPads as part of live rigs. Even if they aren't being used for sound generation, many bands are using them for patch switching, sheet music, lyrics, etc.

[Stokely]

I don't think you are slow, I and many others still don't quite trust them for live. Plus, I play classic rock in smaller bar gigs, so it doesn't make that much sense for me to deal with the extra hassle and "danger" (to the laptop).

 

I've had a few issues at practice when I tried a laptop--but they were due to me not setting things up and testing with the exact same setup...different midi controller in one case, not using the same usb ports (caused a driver issue)...things that could have been prevented by me in other words! It sucked to have the band staring at me while I fiddled with a computer though.

 

I'd do it for certain gigs and with a backup hardware synth as a controller, and I'll use nothing but software for home recording!

[Ekewaka]

I use my laptop in bars :-). Now, it's not a retina display MBP, just an unused 2008 model put to use as a Mainstage laptop

[Leh173]

I did it for a while. I introduced a laptop running logic for the organ and EP in about 2005 then fully went over to mainstage in 2009 but I went back to hardware. It all worked fine, but I just found it fiddly for quick gigs and needed a lot of programming prep, and I hated the MIDI controller options. This was on a 2007 MBP. I prefer one keyboard workstation live these days which I didn't expect I would do. Just easier for me and sounds fine. I have the option of still using a laptop with the Fantom over USB live though and maybe I'll do it again one day. It's worth trying though. Some people love it. I know one great player here in Sydney who uses Mainstage live only and swears he'll never go back. He loves it.

[Jazzmammal]

My take is this: A complete waste of time. I'm like most here, I have pretty much every soft synth known to man sitting right in front of me as I type this. Yes, at home, everything is quiet, I'm either on my cans or monitors, listening very critically I can hear some differences between various instruments compared to my PC3. I'll think, wow that piano really sounds nice or that organ or whatever. But on a gig? That all goes out the window with the noise and overall "ambience" at a live gig. I'm doing a gig this Saturday by the pool at a country club. Anybody really think those subtleties are going to translate to having all the gear set up next to a pool with everybody walking around and talking? No way, it ain't worth the hassle.

 

All the late model keyboards are so good who cares that some synth patch in Kontakt is just soooo sweet? Compared to all my synth patches in the PC3? Maybe I can't find one that is exactly as nice as a soft synth one but my Kurz is more than good enough for a gig like that. And it's the same for the new Rolands, Korgs, Yammys, all of them. We're basically in hardware synth heaven now.

 

Just mho of course but no way am I messing around with a laptop and all the associated wires and programming for live gigs and for what? Absolutely nobody cares, not my band members, not the crowd. It's only me and then with the noise, the PA blaring right behind me and stage monitors in front of me even I can barely hear the differences between a EP Kurz patch and whatever else I may have in the lappy. Remember the best stage speaker setup is no where close to a decent home studio monitoring system and certainly not close to a $200 set of headphones.

 

Bob

[Ashville.Guru]

My take is this: A complete waste of time. I'm like most here, I have pretty much every soft synth known to man sitting right in front of me as I type this. Yes, at home, everything is quiet, I'm either on my cans or monitors, listening very critically I can hear some differences between various instruments compared to my PC3. I'll think, wow that piano really sounds nice or that organ or whatever. But on a gig? That all goes out the window with the noise and overall "ambience" at a live gig.

If better sonic quality was the only plus to a laptop, everything you said would be spot on - but it's not. Sonic quality is merely one of the advantages, to many of us.

 

Controller freedom:

With a laptop, I'm not tied down to the action/weight/size/form factor of a board who's sounds I dig. The OP used the word 'liberates', and that's the most apt word for a laptop-based rig. In terms of physical controllers, the world is your oyster. Feel free to choose the action that your fingers like, in the size/weight/form factor that you like. How often do you see complaints around here, such as "I like the sounds, but don't like the action"... ? With a laptop, you can mix'n'match the action of your liking with the sounds of your liking.

 

Ultimate Flexibility:

And you don't have to worry about controller capabilities like zones/layers. With a laptop, every board out there is a uber-powerful controller. Ultimate flexibility in combining sounds - better even than the most powerful workstations out there. Zones/splits/layers wherever you like. Combine samples with velocity switching, or crossfading with expression pedals.

 

And those are FAR more practical advantages than mere sonic quality, in many contexts. Look around on this forum, you'll find a lot of posts like "I love board X, but I wish I could assign sustain to only one zone when I split LH bass" or "I wish my top board Y could control transpose settings on bottom board Z, whose controls I can't reach". With a laptop, you'll never hear such complaints. You can have each of your controllers doing exactly what you want it to do, and how you want it.

 

Sure, most of these features are available in hardware - but only in flagship workstations. Which are always big, bulky and heavy.

 

And then, there are more innovative and useful programming tricks, available only through software midi plugins, and in no current hardware - examples here.

 

Custom workflows:

In fact, you can design your own live workflow with a laptop. Want those two buttons over there to increment/decrement programs? No problem. Sustain pedal to act as footswitch? No problem. Assign those sliders over there to zones? No problem. You prefer dedicated knobs for every parameter, like a Nord? Sure, go ahead.

 

Many hosts also offer excellent hierarchical setlist managements - setlists organized into songs, songs into scenes, each switchable via any hardware footswitch/button, whatever.

 

Add exotic/vanilla controllers:

And then there are the more innovative controllers which are USB-only. With a laptop, it's easy to get Poly AT with a McMillan QuNexus, breath control with a TEC device, or 2-D touch pad with a Korg NanoPad. Not to mention, several options of adding knobs/sliders/buttons through slim USB devices. Adding these to hardware requires bulky boxes with wall-wart power supplies.

 

------------

 

In the end, it all boils down to aptitude and musical context. Yes, there's a bit of a hassle, but if you work at it, there are several ways of making it as convenient as a hardware module/keyboard (examples in this recent discussion). Still, many of us would just like to focus on the music, and want an instrument that works right out of the box. It's understandable that laptops would NOT be ideal in those contexts, and there are great hardware-only options available today.

 

But to declare laptop rigs as "a complete waste of time", would be rather myopic. YMMV.

 

- Guru

[Leh173]

Yes all that is true, and was a big part of my reason for going to a Laptop rig. The flexibility aspect is impressive with Mainstage, and I dug the idea of being able to use everything I used in the studio on stage, but for me it wasn't really worth it in the end. I found the effort to configure it, workaround latency and processing power issues was considerable and even though I got it rock solid, the extra gear factor of MIDI controllers whose actions I hated and extra audio interface etc added up to a hassle for my situation a present. Also it's not that fast when trying to assign things or add new patches especially when looking for a sound when rehearsing or writing with a band. The G is much faster. So I think it is a YMMV situation. One thing I did notice researching hardware again was that I realised in the case of Fantom G that Roland had solved a lot of programming things that I was doing by hand on Mainstage anyway, and when I got the Fantom I realised it could actually do most of the things Mainstage could do anyway, in it's own way. Sure Mainstage is more open ended and I miss being able to use whatever softsynth I like or heaps of FX. Laptops are probably more powerful now too. All things worth considering I guess. I feel more relaxed playing the Fantom live though and the keybed quality is frankly miles ahead. I'm just sharing all this with the forum as I've gone down both paths and there's plenty to consider. I'm not against adding a laptop back to my rig again though in future. I feel the Fantom G was a really worthwhile investment though. Hardware is pretty good right now, but the laptop/software rig is reality too. So I guess it's what floats your boat. I don't think people should see it as a "one or the other" situation. More a best of both worlds or what works for you type thing.

[Analogaddict]

For me, what's missing in a laptop rig is two things; bread-and-butter sounds and control. I haven't tried any VST that replicates the functionality of a workstation (sounds good, small footprint, big flexibility), and to duplicate the kind of control I have with my PC3, I'd need - a PC3. Or an aftermarket solution with 9 assignable sliders, 5 footswitches, 10-15 assignable switches and the possibility to change patches without reaching for the computer.

[Ashville.Guru]

For me, what's missing in a laptop rig is two things; bread-and-butter sounds and control. I haven't tried any VST that replicates the functionality of a workstation (sounds good, small footprint, big flexibility)

I might be missing something here, but it's not clear from your post whether you're saying:

• 'This can't be done with a laptop' or
  
• 'I don't have the time/patience to get this done with a laptop'

If it's the first, then that's simply not true. Regarding bread-and-butter sounds, it's just a question of you putting together what you need. It's a vast gourmet buffet out there - while it may look different from your regular packed lunch, it certainly isn't lacking in any sense! The big advantage of VSTs is that you can pick and choose what you need. There are also pre-packaged solutions (discussed here), but that somewhat defeats the purpose, IMO.

 

and to duplicate the kind of control I have with my PC3, I'd need - a PC3. Or an aftermarket solution with 9 assignable sliders, 5 footswitches, 10-15 assignable switches and the possibility to change patches without reaching for the computer.

This is simply untrue. A $39 Korg NanoKontrol gives you 4X9 assignable sliders, 4X9 assignable knobs and 4X18 assignable switches. Why on earth would you need to "reach for a computer"?

 

If anything, a laptop rig can have far greater control options than a single workstation. Perhaps you're missing the idea of modularity in a laptop rig...?

 

- Guru

[davinwv]

Or an aftermarket solution with 9 assignable sliders, 5 footswitches, 10-15 assignable switches and the possibility to change patches without reaching for the computer.

 

Other than the number of fottswitches, there are many controller products that do the things you describe.

 

After I boot my Dell laptop and launch Cantabile, I never touch my laptop again until it is time to shut it down at the end of the gig. Remote patch changes are easy to configure.

[AnalogGuy1]

Or an aftermarket solution with 9 assignable sliders, 5 footswitches, 10-15 assignable switches and the possibility to change patches without reaching for the computer.

 

FWIW, my rig is an Axiom 61 controller over a Roland GX700 (that I use as a controller), both fed into Cantabile. It gives me everything you mention minus the footswitches, although if I wanted them they would be easy to add. I switch patches using buttons on the Axiom midi mapped to Cantabile. Forte gives even more external midi hardware control if you want it.

 

The only thing I didn't like was getting used to the fact that

1) I have to plug each keyboard into the same USB slot on my laptop, or they get seen as a different keyboard (important for some complex split/layered patches), and

2) On reboot I have to gliss the Axiom (volume down) before I start playing or else I get a hung note.

 

It was frustrating to figure out the solutions to those two problems, but now have only had one problem in the past two years (a weird full-octave down shift of the Roland for one song one time, but that's actually happened to me twice playing it using it's onboard sounds, so maybe it's the Roland and not the midi/VST piece).

[Ashville.Guru]

The only thing I didn't like was getting used to the fact that

1) I have to plug each keyboard into the same USB slot on my laptop, or they get seen as a different keyboard (important for some complex split/layered patches)

What's the problem if they get seen as different keyboards? It's possible to route input from multiple boards into the same rack, and still have as complex splits/layers as possible. In fact, that's the more prudent approach in the long run, as it gives you more control options. Can you describe your requirements with more specifics?

 

2) On reboot I have to gliss the Axiom (volume down) before I start playing or else I get a hung note.

Wierd, I've never heard of anything like this. It seems like a defect in the Axiom. A MIDI monitor like MidiOx should help diagnose the problem.

 

- Guru

[Jazzmammal]

Guru, I totally respect you, I've read a lot of your posts. The problem is though is we all have to be like you - a "Guru". That means being a super nerd who really understands this stuff. Most older part time players who still have full time jobs simply don't have the time or inclination to turn ourselves into Midi Masters. Without that level of skill trying to figure all this out, mapping controllers, keeping track of midi channels, the interface, adjusting latency and not to mention possible problems with a computer on stage just makes this too much for a lot of players to handle.

 

Plus, what controllers are you talking about that have full pro level keybeds especially for organ? They don't exist right now because there's tons of threads here asking about exactly that and the vast majority of affordable controllers suck when it comes to the keybed itself. About once a year or so I'll go to GC to test them out and the only one I kinda sorta like is the Arturia 61.

 

As for the PC3, I have the 76 key version and it has 16 zones with up to 32 layers per zone. Each layer has it's own individual controller assignments. Do the math as to all the possiblities there. It's very solidly built, I love the key action and it looks like a pro keyboard, not some toy. What I can't do with that beast I don't care about doing.

 

Having said all that I still look for flexibility, weight savings and better sounds which is why I check new things out all the time and haunt forums like this one. So, don't misunderstand me Guru, I completely enjoy reading your posts, you're a very knowledgable person.

 

Bob

[Stokely]

It's not just the non-technical people that have a hard time with it sometimes. I administer databases for a living (it's more exciting than it sounds LOL) and when it's music time my tolerance for computer issues lies somewhere between 0 and 1 on a 100 point scale. Music time is right-brain time.

 

I'll get there, I expect I have one more hardware board purchase in me (a used stage piano most likely). I'm hoping the ipad/android hardware continues to advance in the music area.

 

 

[Bridog6996]

both kinds of guitar!

 

I feel like there's a joke there, a la the Blues Brothers.

 

Loud and annoying?

[Ashville.Guru]

Bob - thanks for the kind words, and your post is actually quite humbling.

 

I've implied this in my earlier posts, but it perhaps warrants explicit elaboration. Yes, a laptop rig often involves an investment of time and effort, not to mention a different skillset and aptitude. Being as bullheaded and obstinate as I am, I've spent several hours designing my idealised, custom workflow - time which could have been spent practising! So I can totally see why many wouldn't see it as a worthwhile investment.

 

But I'm sure I'm not the only one around here with the DIY-customize-your-rig aptitude. Eric's tilting stand or Mate_Stubb's controller, or the recent DIY Pedalboard, are inspiring examples of not letting what's in the market limit your musical rig. Customizing a laptop rig is best seen as a labour of love, somewhat in the same spirit, if a lot more abstract and less pretty! Hence my post.

 

Plus, what controllers are you talking about that have full pro level keybeds especially for organ? They don't exist right now because there's tons of threads here asking about exactly that and the vast majority of affordable controllers suck when it comes to the keybed itself.

Oh I gave up on dedicated controllers long ago...! My Casio CDP-100 has a much better keybed than any of those lousy M-Audio/CME/Akai controllers - and incidentally costs way less. For a laptop rig, it simply makes more sense to look at every keyboard in the market as a potential controller...!

 

Here's an example. I've recently been feeling the need for aftertouch, and my main board has to be weighted. I was seriously considering the Kurz SP5-8 (the only weighted board out there with aftertouch ). But I also have strict form-factor constraints - the extra depth/real estate on the left + weight of the SP5 almost rules it out. So I've placed an order for an Arturia controller, which sits nicely on top of the CDP-100 . Between the CDP-100 and the Arturia, I have some fairly decent keybeds to work with. Perhaps a PX-150 might have a better keybed, but when I A-Bd them, I didn't find enough difference to warrant the upgrade. So at the 'sweet spot' of weight/slim form factor, I get to do exactly what I want... which would have been unthinkable without the laptop!

 

- Guru