VR-09 Hints and Tips

[To B3]

For me, the possibility to assign effects independently to each part of a split or layer (even if we have to leave out the MFX, if it eat more ressources), by simply highliting the sound where we are applying the effect on the panel would be the greater step. New efects like pedal wah and amp sims would increase the appeal... and roland already has the tecnology to do that, just don't know if the VR can handle ir and If it's possible with a simple extra update, of course. Hoping it is.

[brenner13]

i took some minutes to test the expression and damper pedal settings. some weird tricks here...

 

i was using a piano sound, layered with a brass sound. when setting the damper to 'to UPPER', it sustained the 2 sounds. when setting the expression pedal to 'to LOWER' it affected only the brass sound. i am not sure i understand what this means... another new bug ?

 

also i tried saving 2 registrations with different functions for the damper pedal, and unfortunately, it was not saved with the registration.

 

(also, i could not remind how to save the current sound to a specific registration in another bank. i loaded a registration from bank 1, made some edits, and wanted to save the result into bank 9... can somebody tell me ?)

 

Before the update, I think the upper/lower/both damper choices only work in split mode? It is interesting how the expression assign is MORE functional now.

 

I'm away from the board right now, but as you are in the processor saving, after you've entered your new name, arrow up to the top voice and spin the alpha dial to your desired location. Too bad there is no comparison button before you commit to the save.

[rien]

It is interesting how the expression assign is MORE functional now.

 

indeed ! you can make some very interresting sounds, like putting up some strings on top of a piano on some parts of a song. i love that. this board gets more and more interesting.

[Josh Paxton]

I just downloaded the manual myself and it looks like both the damper pedal AND the expression pedal settings (which parts they are applied to) are saved as part of the registration.

 

If that's true, that will make me a very happy camper. I won't have the chance to update mine today, but please keep us in the loop!

[To B3]

Next step is to turn possible saving the function of the damper at least to the registrations!

[Craig MacDonald]

I've just loaded the update.. no problems whatsoever..

 

I can confirm that the notes retriggering has been fixed, also the Expression pedal can now be set for upper/lower/both parts like the damper pedal AND.... THIS WILL MAKE EVERYONE VERY HAPPY, the damper and expression pedal settings can be saved by registration. I have confirmed this by saving two different registrations each with different settings, and the settings were retained, I was able to switch back and forth between registrations and see the different settings.

 

I can also confirm that the Percussion still goes through the C/V so this is not fixed yet.. I don't have time for anymore testing until later, but these are several VERY important things that have been fixed..!!!

 

I also posted a note to the Roland blog asking OV when we can expect the Percussion to be fixed AND when will we see the ability to download sounds from the Axial site (which may be more of an editor update).

[To B3]

That's really great! Hoping to see some more un-announced (good) surprises like that!

 

How was the update process, clean and simple or a little bumpy like the hammond sk1 (not working with this or that thumb drive, some errors, etc)?

 

Anyway... If you "accidentally" find that the effect assigning issue got resolved, I'm buying one tomorrow unseen

[Craig MacDonald]

No issues with the update at all.. The wording of one or two things were a little weird (probably translation issues) but all went fine for me.. I was careful to format the USB stick on the VR-09 and everything was fine.. I took all of 5 minutes..

[AnotherScott]

I also posted a note to the Roland blog asking OV when we can expect the Percussion to be fixed

Architecturally, I doubt it is possible to separately route two components of the sound (the tonewheel sound vs. the percussion sound), process one through the C/V but not the other, than combine the two sounds before processing through the rotary effect. The signal routing there is so different from anything else in the VR... I would be surprised if it could be programmed into a device that wasn't built to work that way in the first place. But who knows. They did an update to the Jupiter 80 that allowed you to change the order that effects were processed (so you could route a sound out of one effect into another, instead of only in parallel), so the signal "flow chart" is not necessarily carved in stone. So I could be surprised. ;-)

 

Does anyone know, is this done properly in other Roland tonewheel implementations... i.e. VR-700, VK-8(M)?

[To B3]

About the sound not cutting, does that happen both ehen changing from factory preset changes AND user registrations, including splitted, layered sounds and stuff?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3, I don't understand your question, what do you mean by the sound not cutting?

[To B3]

The sound not cutting when changing from one to another, sorry about my english

 

About the changes referred, did not understand this too: "The Control Change 7 and 11 from MIDI IN in the Organ Sound can be received." Can someone explain?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3, I never heard that referred to as the sound cutting out, sorry...

 

With the new update the sound sustains, as you would expect, without retriggering the notes (which was the original issue) when you change sounds. I think the effects change, to whatever the effects are on the new sounds, but this is hardly noticeable.

 

I have not had any time to look into the cc changes are that you reference.. Sorry.

[AnotherScott]

About the changes referred, did not understand this too: "The Control Change 7 and 11 from MIDI IN in the Organ Sound can be received." Can someone explain?

It means that besides being able to use a pedal, it also recognizes Volume and Expression commands over MIDI. So if you have recorded a sequence where the organ is supposed to fade in/out or change level, or if you are playing the VR-09's organ from some other keyboard with its own expression pedal, those volume changes will function. (It's supposed to always be that way, but apparently the VR-09 didn't work that way, and they fixed it.)

 

With the new update the sound sustains, as you would expect, without retriggering the notes (which was the original issue) when you change sounds. I think the effects change, to whatever the effects are on the new sounds, but this is hardly noticeable.

How noticeable the insertion of the new effect would be would probably be a matter of how dramatic an effect was on the original and/or the new sound.

 

At any rate, To B3's question was whether this ability, to smoothly change sounds without the first sound either cutting out or retriggering, works regardless of how you change sounds... i.e. whether you're using the various front panel controls to switch from one single sound to another, or using one of the four registration buttons to switch from one registration to another.

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott thanks for the clarification on the cc question.. Now that you mention this, I recall this problem and how weird it was that the VR-09 wasn't set up to respond to volume and expression control midi messages!!

 

That's another good fix..

[Craig MacDonald]

Just another clarification about the retriggering problem.. Roland has fixed the note retriggering, it no longer does this when you sustain a note and change sounds.. HOWEVER it seems as if they have implemented a "patch remain" but this seems to only relate to the actual sound, the effects immediately change to the effects of the new program/registration that is selected.. So as AnotherScott has suggested, how subtle or dramatic the change will be, from one sound to another, will depend entirely upon the nature of the effects differences between the two sounds selected. It can be quite dramatic, if you're switching from piano to organ or some other sound with heavy effects, or quite subtle if you're just changing from one piano to another.

 

It's not a perfect solution, but it's a major improvement over the original OS version where the notes retriggering at full volume when you switch sounds while sustaining notes.

 

I beginning to think that the way the effects are implemented on the VR-09 is the limiting factor when it comes to what can and can't be fixed on the VR-09. However, maybe well see this improved further in another release.

[To B3]

Thanks Scott and Craig... So, anyone else installed it? More impressions?? Got very excited in hearing that improvements... Especially the ability to save per patch all the pedal configurations...

 

Along with an improved effect assigning on multi timbral parts (retaining the simplicity), some more MFX options like pedal wah modelling (disabling the expression function when selected like on the NE2), and and amp sims on the next update (both things that Roland already own the technology) would turn the thing into something even better!

[WesG]

Craig - that implementation of "patch remain" is typical from my experience with other products in this price range. I'm not sure about higher products because I don't have any.

 

But, the reason is IIUC, that they would have to double the effects circuitry to make the effects not glitch...and this circuitry would have to be left unused for the entire time that the keyboard is in use, except during patch transitions.

 

The one thing manufacturers don't do is *smooth* effects switching. I would be fine with a gradual shift from one effects setting to another (say, 250ms) if there were notes being held when the patch was changed. A gradual change would make this problem MUCH less noticeable.

[HammondDave]

HammondDave has awoken!

 

Although he is happy for the poor souls who have been awaiting Roland's OS update, it sounds like they are trying to solve the issues without the necessary hardware upgrades to allow for the software to work properly. For instance, splitting the percussion out of the signal that goes through the effects may be impossible with the limited processing design of he VR-09. Same goes for the effects that change when the registrations are switched.

 

But I do admit, I am surprised that they solved even some of the issues... And like Craig says... "What do ya expect for $999?"

[To B3]

From a distance, as a "not yet owner", the new effects being applied to the remains of the old sound when changing from one to another does not bother me... I see it as a "provisory" layer, making it sounding like the old one is mashing with the new for a moment. For my type of sounds (organs, EPs, Clavs, some moog bass and leads here and there an fake mellotrons) and style of playing, I think it will be pretty cool actually.

[Kevmo]

Sitar patch creation....? I need one, any ideas?

[Craig MacDonald]

Kevmo, this is me of the great things about the VR-09... There are 3 sitar waves in the PCM samples.. Wave number 225/226/227.. And i would expect that you can use these waves and the iPad editor to create a sitar sound... That said, I haven't listened to the waves so I don't know how good or bad they are.. But that is where I'd start..

[HammondDave]

Sitar patch creation....? I need one, any ideas?

 

Perfect for this song...

 

[video:youtube]

[To B3]

So... now that you also can save the pedal functions per patch, what does it happen when you change from a patch where you have a rhodes, with the damper pedal acting as damper, and you sustain a chord stepping on the pedal... then you change to an organ where the sustain is leslie fast/slow? Does it retain the function of the pedal of the old sound too?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3,

 

I guess I haven't been clear on this.. what can be stored in a registration is NOT the function of the damper pedal or the expression pedal.. what is stored is whether or not they are set to ON for upper/lower/both.. the function of the damper pedal and expression pedal are still a global setting. SO, you can't have the damper pedal saved as a sustain pedal on one registration and saved as a leslie speed control in another.

 

This works perfectly for me because I want the damper pedal to always act as a damper/sustain pedal, and I use the D-beam and/or the joystick to control leslie speed, and I want the expression pedal to always be an expression pedal, and that's where everything stays.. I can turn these functions on/off based on the splits and layers that I create in different registrations.

 

Perhaps this lacks the sophistication of the controller functionality of higher end workstations.. but again this is very basic and adequate functionality, for a $999 keyboard (as far as I am concerned). It wasn't adequate before when you couldn't set the expression pedal off/on for different upper and lower parts, but that's fixed now and that satisfies my requirements.

[WesG]

ToB3 - out of curiosity, what would you expect it to do? I don't know what it does, but my expectation would be that the damper releases immediately.

 

HammondDave - what products do you own that don't have to re-use the effects circuitry from one sound to the next? What happens in them if you hold notes from two patches with different effects and go to a third?

 

I agree, BTW, the percussion thing is a major pisser. It's the only really poor area in the organ emulation. They should fix it, although I doubt they can, and add a "Paradise" option to the decay selections. Additionally, I think that in the next version of this product, they should add separate buttons for percussion harmonic selection and decay.

 

Wes

[Kevmo]

Kevmo, this is me of the great things about the VR-09... There are 3 sitar waves in the PCM samples.. Wave number 225/226/227.. And i would expect that you can use these waves and the iPad editor to create a sitar sound... That said, I haven't listened to the waves so I don't know how good or bad they are.. But that is where I'd start..

wow thanks now I have to borrow my sons iPad

How about melotros? Where is this PCM wave list?

[Craig MacDonald]

Go into the synth editor, increment the wave selection to the PCM waves, press on the wave number field and a drop down list appears tat you can scroll through.

[Kevmo]

Thanks.Craig,

any Melotrons?

How's married life treatin you?

[Craig MacDonald]

Kevmo,

 

Married life is great thank you!!! I just looked at the list of PCM waves and there are close to 20 different string waves.. I'm sure that given the synth editing capabilities and tone controls on the VR-09, you can create a very workable mellotron sound.. There are also numerous vocal waves ranging from male/female to synth Vox sounds, and flute waves so you can probably cover the basic mellotron sounds without too much difficulty.

 

Don't forget that you can edit the existing string sounds in the VR-09 and with a bit of compression, tone control and mfx you can get a pretty close approximation.. (something that will sound reasonably close in an ensemble). I did this quickly and made a recording a few months ago.. you can listen to it here..

 

 

HammondDave laughed at it, and honestly I don't blame him.. if I was playing in a progrock band playing a lot of Genesis etc. I wouldn't be satisfied with it, but in an ensemble situation for a Moody Blues tune or two, it's probably quite workable.