PT-Killer App Rumoured to be on the way

[Saint Johnny B]

No, I don't think I buy into either Bill's or Steve's propaganda. I just watch what they do.

And Apple is about to do something that very well could change the world, again. I guess the last time I noticed the world changing was when Jobs brought all the record companies together and made music on the net a viable deal. The record companies fumbled and bumbled for years, and zap, just like that, Jobs made it better.

 

Now if Apple can make it easier and more efficient for pro audio engineers to do recording, mixing, mastering, and distribution, then so much the better.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Now if Apple can make it easier and more efficient for pro audio engineers to do recording, mixing, mastering, and distribution, then so much the better.

No offense Johnny, but I am not waiting for Mr. Jobs to make that easier for me; I am doing that myself.

 

Applesoft has the same core no matter which end of it you bite. I just make the most of the tools that both companies offer, and I don't allow my self to not get overly emotional about either company's software. I just make music with both of them, and have been for years.

[Saint Johnny B]

Well Jo,

 

We'll see what happens at MWSF, if anything. But a year or two in development, with a bunch of talented audio engineers and DSP coders could produce something really fantastic. On the other hand, they could have spent all their time visting the girls at the local watering hole, the Brass Rail.

 

We'll also see if an integrated system for big budget movies that deals effectively with audio also appears soon.

 

But 64-bit with "n" number of channels sounds pretty good to me.

[Jotown]

It sounds good to me as well. But I guarantee you that there is something just like it, or very similar being developed on the PC end. And I will also bet that within six months of it's release there will be a PC equivalent that you will be able to run on a Dual AMD machine that will out perform every G5 out there.

 

I will then choose which way to go with my money. And I can assure you that my choice will be based on performance and price, and not on my feelings towards Mr. Gates, nor Mr. Jobs.

 

I just hate it when these discussions get reduced to Mac Vs PC diatribe. Just like in the political threads; a little balance goes a long way.

[aliengroover]

The question to me is simply, is the gear we're using now THAT incompetent that we're begging for something else to come down the pike? Last time I checked, PTLogicDPSonarNuendo still got the job done. Whatever works for you. More tracks is always nice. So is more processing/DSP power. But wonderful (and not so wonderful) things are being done with PT and the other apps.

 

Call me naive, but if you just grabbed some random piece of recorded bliss out of the air, nobody will truly know or care how and what it was done with. So again, the bottom line is what works for you. The constant PT bashing is ancient. If it didn't work for you, fantabulous. And if it does, the same. I just ask that the tool doesn't get in my way.

Peace

[Saint Johnny B]

Jo,

 

You may very well see a similar app on the PC w/i 6 months. That pattern is not unusual.

 

Bill is an amazing guy too. In fact, GM says he was impressed with a demo of Media 9??? I think that's its name.

 

And yeah, the tools should not get in the way or be so complex or cumbersome that it takes too long to get things done.

 

Things are moving and changing, we'll have to wait to see how it shakes out. Maybe we'll know more after MWSF.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by aliengroover:

Last time I checked, PTLogicDPSonarNuendo still got the job done. Whatever works for you. More tracks is always nice. So is more processing/DSP power. But wonderful (and not so wonderful) things are being done with PT and the other apps.

And that's all I'm trying to say here. We are at a very cool time in modern recording history, for all of the reasons that you list above. (as well as a few that you didn't) To suggest that there could even be a "killer app" at this time, that in any way will equal the impact that the first wave of word processors had is pretty far fetched.

 

This new do-hickey may be very cool and useful, but in my opinion, there is just no way that it is going to be something that we will all have to dump our current set-ups for in our quests to make competitive music.

 

It will be interesting that is for sure; the rest remains to be seen.

[Philip OKeefe]

I'm a gear head too, with serious GAS issues, but I look at it this way: I have cool tools already. Some of these tools are incredible and exceed the wildest dreams I had when I first got started recording music over 25 years ago. And I'm sure that technology will continue to evolve and even occasionally bring us revolutionary and innovative products. And of course, if they make my life in the studio easier and / or more productive, then I'll welcome them.

 

But I see a larger issue that isn't being addressed which has the potential to make all of this innovation a moot point. If you don't have MARKET, then you've got a serious problem. People are not going to keep their studios going if the industry remains in locked its current form. If file sharing trends continue as they are. If labels continue to consolodate while dumping artists and bands, concert venues and radio stations continue to be gobbled up by ClearChannel et al, etc.

 

I think that the industry is in an unprecedented shakup period right now, and we need a new approach and a new paradigm. We need an audience who appreciates our product (our responsibility: better quality product), sees fair value in it (our responsibility: fair prices and value added to the current products) and is willing to support it financially. What I'd like to see is some new ideas regarding all of these issues. IMO, that's something the industry needs a hell of a lot more than another DAW program - even a "PT killer" or whatever.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

I think that the industry is in an unprecedented shakup period right now, and we need a new approach and a new paradigm. We need an audience who appreciates our product (our responsibility: better quality product), sees fair value in it (our responsibility: fair prices and value added to the current products) and is willing to support it financially. What I'd like to see is some new ideas regarding all of these issues. IMO, that's something the industry needs a hell of a lot more than another DAW program - even a "PT killer" or whatever.

And that my friend would indeed be a "Killer App", and you can rest assured that neither Microsoft or Apple will be bringing us that one.

[StoneinaPond]

And that my friend would indeed be a "Killer App", and you can rest assured that neither Microsoft or Apple will be bringing us that one.

Perhaps. But that assumes that we are still talking about recording tones to a piece of round plastic that attempts to replicate an emotional experience.

 

I think that the whole "entertainment" business will be unrecognizable in five to ten years. Delivery and the malleability of product will be a very different beast, and we will need to adapt, innovate and think outside the box to participate.

 

As Phil said, he has tools today that were undreamed of when he was younger. There are tools in the future that will be just as mind blowing. We will, however, be in some respects slaves of the technological momentum at first. But as we begin to see the implications of this paradigm shift, hopefully, we as artists and artist-facilitators will take this potential and make it grow.

 

Two words of caution.

 

Although technology is in the hands of the big-money people, we have to resist falling into the same trap that has landed us here. That of chasing the money guys for personal greed at the expense of content.

 

We also have to survive the prospect of condemning ourselves and the planet into a new Dark Age because of our propensity for human conflict.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by StoneinaPond:

And that my friend would indeed be a "Killer App", and you can rest assured that neither Microsoft or Apple will be bringing us that one.

Perhaps. But that assumes that we are still talking about recording tones to a piece of round plastic that attempts to replicate an emotional experience.

Although rotating media maybe obsolete in 5 to 10 years, we will still be trying to replicate emotional experience with music, and those experiences will be replicated in at best 5.1, and more probable still in stereo with a new, (or several new) compression schemes.

 

Yes Video gaming and muti-media approaches are gaining ground, but I sincerely believe that there will always be a market for music. That market may get smaller and more specialized, but there will always be souls with ears out there that want to hear those emotional experiences replicated for their own sake.

 

And at that point many of the people who are just wankers with a DAW will move into video editing, or porno movie production. (In fact many already have) Those that are here to make music will continue to do so in whatever format or form it takes.

 

The PT-killer, or PC-killer, or even Mac-Killer won't be able to kill the spirit of those whose heart and souls desire is to make music. They will do so irregardless of format wars and a changing music marketing landscape.

[StoneinaPond]

Although rotating media maybe obsolete in 5 to 10 years, we will still be trying to replicate emotional experience with music, and those experiences will be replicated in at best 5.1, and more probable still in stereo with a new, (or several new) compression schemes.

Replicating emotional experience with music, yes, but please, can we leave compression schemes out of this? And I hope surround is only the beginning.

 

Yes Video gaming and muti-media approaches are gaining ground, but I sincerely believe that there will always be a market for music. That market may get smaller and more specialized, but there will always be souls with ears out there that want to hear those emotional experiences replicated for their own sake.

I really hope so.

 

And at that point many of the people who are just wankers with a DAW will move into video editing, or porno movie production. (In fact many already have) Those that are here to make music will continue to do so in whatever format or form it takes.

I intend to.

 

The PT-killer, or PC-killer, or even Mac-Killer won't be able to kill the spirit of those whose heart and souls desire is to make music. They will do so irregardless of format wars and a changing music marketing landscape.

Of course.

 

But somehow I have a feeling that the future holds more than just “I make music – somebody delivers music – end user listens to music.” I don't know what form it will be in, but if somebody had told us ten years ago that you and I would be having an intellectual exchange on an “Inter-net” we would have laughed.

 

The problem will be in getting the big-money boys to allow all the various channels that are presently being created, to be open to individuals without raping them financially.

[EXAGON]

Originally posted by Jotown:

Originally posted by EXAGON:

Johnny B wrote:

"you may see some leading edge features, things that have never been done before. Can Apple do that?"

If you look at the Apple history, you will see that almost everything they did was never done before..

Come on now, you are buying the Jobs propoganda. Apple does what Apple does very well, but most of what they have done had already been done before. In some cases they've done it better, in some cases they do not.

 

Ok, let's see some examples:

The mouse: Xerox was developing the mouse, but Wozniak and Jobs, who went to Xerox seeing the mouse were already developing it.

Windows: Windows were developed by Apple, and some years later Microsoft adopted it, and as charge to Apple they developed Office.Mac

 

Plug and play devices:

Apple developed Firewire, which is now the standard connection between cameras, computers, HDs and still the fastest.

 

And some other things developed by Apple and copied by others:

The trash can

The auto software update

The app launcher

The multitasking in consumer computing (UNIX was always multitasking)

the Icons and all things you see in your windows.

AV free software like IMovie, iDVD, iTunes

And Apple was the first and only platform of Macromedia, Adobe, Digidesign, Avid.

Without Apple maybe we would not use those tools.

 

Apple often comes up with something that changes the world

It's true.

According to whom?

 

See above.

 

Henchman wrote:

Is it still going to be Mac as well as PC, as mentioned before?

Apple seems to differentiate the pro from the consumer market.

Professional products are ignoring Windows (Logic, Shake, FCP, DvdStudio Pro,...)

Consumer products (the only one for now is iTunes) are for Windows too.

At one point in time that may have been true, but it certainly is not true now. The world of personal computer platforms has virtually converged. There is just about nothing that can not be done on either platform at this point in time. I have and use both. To suggest that only Apple is a professional platform is simply untrue. It may be your preference, and it may also be your opinion; but that does not make it true.

 

You misunderstood or i was not clear:

Apple has a simple strategy IMO, and for now:

They develop consumer appllications for Both platforms, and pro only for Apple. Final Cut, Logic, and other Top world class applications are only for Mac.

 

As Craig stated above and Curve quoted: "neither will compose a great bridge." And I will add that both will allow you to make a professional recording of a good song if you know what you are doing. And if you don't, the platform doesn't really matter.

I agree with Craig, it's up to you to create a hit, not to the tools, but with good tools you do it faster.

[Brittanylips]

No, I agree with Craig when he said that it's all about the tools, and that it's up to the tools to make the hit, to hell with the people.

 

-ceeanyips

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

No, I agree with Craig when he said that it's all about the tools, and that it's up to the tools to make the hit, to hell with the people.

 

-ceeanyips

Yeah... what she said!

[StoneinaPond]

Yeah... what she said!

Craig's a woman?

[Jotown]

But somehow I have a feeling that the future holds more than just “I make music – somebody delivers music – end user listens to music.” I don't know what form it will be in, but if somebody had told us ten years ago that you and I would be having an intellectual exchange on an “Inter-net” we would have laughed.

 

The problem will be in getting the big-money boys to allow all the various channels that are presently being created, to be open to individuals without raping them financially.

And that is one of things that has gotten under my skin in this thread. Big labels and media companies will continue to do what they have always done, and anyone who believes that AppleSoft or any other big money company is going to do something that will financially benefit artists is sadly mistaken.

 

There is a thread here somewhere that breaks down the profit sharing between the artist and other participants on that wild new Apple site. Guess what? The artist is still getting skrewed!

 

It will always be the same as it ever was, until artists themselves, and maybe some music oriented business people create an alternative distribution network. In the meantime indie artists and producers will have to do it for themselves.

 

The notion that Steve Jobs is going to single handedly create a musical utopia where all artists will get a fair shake is insane. He is and has always been first and foremost a business man. Music, and the pro audio/video niche is nothing more than a survival strategy for Apple just like business and network computing is a survival strategy for Microsoft. They don't care about us; only market share.

 

And Steve Jobs invented the mouse just like Al Gore invented the internet.

 

(Sorry for my rant)

[hmurchison]

Well you can't blame the studios fully. They assume all the risk and therefore get the spoils. Artist who have a good product and are willing to do the promotion and merchandising themselves will profit the most.

 

The online music stores will get your music out there but you still have to let people know about it. I look forward to a day where high quality independent artist tracks outnumber the big studio tracks.

 

First the tools must become cheaper. Second the distribution line must be cheap and accessible. Third the product must be good.

 

Everything is going global. The talented musician who expects to be catered to will have no guarantees of immense profits. Work hard and smart and you have a chance.

[Saint Johnny B]

Jo,

 

Do you have the figues and the breakdown of the fee sharing deal? Thanks

[6 stringer]

Thanks pardners fer all the thoughtful responses. I lernt a lot. Happy New Year to y'all.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Jo,

 

Do you have the figues and the breakdown of the fee sharing deal? Thanks

If you do a search of the SSS forum on the apple thing, I am sure you will find it. It was pretty recently posted here. And my point was not to knock Apple, Jobs, or file sharing. Just to point out that it will be up to us to find a way to make a viable business model out of the current mess.

 

Big companies will be sure to find a way to continue to exploit artists just as they always have. It is my feeling that the current technology provides artists themselves the tools to create a new paridigm record biz. I just feel that the idea that any company is going to do it for us to be wishful thinking.

[Saint Johnny B]

Jo I did a search of "Apple" and found some threads, even found one where I asked the same question, but I did not find an answer. If you know, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

Maybe we will know more come MacWorld SF or NAMM. Which are soon!

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

I did not find an answer.

Wether Apple's i-Tunes deals are fair to artists or not,all you have to do is look at the standard CD record deal which is about 8 cents per for the artist tops.For 99 cents per download you going to have to get into fractions and old English Haypennies.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Jo I did a search of "Apple" and found some threads, even found one where I asked the same question, but I did not find an answer. If you know, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

Maybe we will know more come MacWorld SF or NAMM. Which are soon!

Here is the link I was referring to.

 

http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

[Saint Johnny B]

Thanks Jo. That's a great site. We do need industry reform across the board, contracts, elimination of recoupment, auditing rights, fair accounting, penalties for cheating companies...etc.

 

I think a good start would be "model contracts" that contain benefits like "retirement plans" and "health care benefits." Perhaps, Major League Baseball Player Contracts could serve as a model for the model.

 

In any event, the industry is changing and presents musicans with an opportunity to band together and reform the industry and force some fairness into the system. One such group is here:

 

www.recordingartistscoalitnon.com

 

In any event, if Apple's new app costs less than a PT rig, does more and gives better performance and ease-of-use features, it could further empower musicans. And that could be a good thing.

 

We'll see as the major trade shows (MacWorld SF and NAMM) roll around very soon.

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by Jotown:

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Jo I did a search of "Apple" and found some threads, even found one where I asked the same question, but I did not find an answer. If you know, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

Maybe we will know more come MacWorld SF or NAMM. Which are soon!

Here is the link I was referring to.

 

Downhillbattle.org is a horrible, "know thy enemy" Apple is not the enemy. They are beholden to the license that the Big 5 create. Rants about lossy audio are irrelevant. Artist compensation is under the auspice of the labels. The problem here is that just because you have a webpage up doesn't mean your points are salient. end rant

 

The objective of an application should be to get out of the artists way enough to let the creativity come through. If Apples DAW does that better than the rest then kudos to them. Reform will not happen until Musicians take control of their own destiny. They must follow the same rules that everyone goes by. For instance

 

Steve Jobs founded Apple but was eventually fired by the company he founded.

 

Same scenario for Bob Carver from Carver electronics.

 

What this means is that you as a musician are the proprietor of a "product" but it requires money to push that product to the masses. Venture Capital exists to finance small companies but the downside is that they will take control of your assests. So basically have is the Big 5 becoming VCs and taking control. You want to achieve success and keep the money you have to do it with your own dollars. Muscians are not exempt from this immutable law of business.

 

Creativity will carry you only so far Money will extend your reach further.

[Saint Johnny B]

Murch, you are right. But one of the biggest costs in the past was studio time, tracking and mixing, and mastering. If Apple's new app comes anywhere near its potential, it could significanly reduce the production costs amd hence increase the artist's share on future product. The only costs them would be related to marketing, which as we know can also be substanial. In any event, recording contracts need updating and reform to meet the new reality we all face.

 

Although, I don't view Apple as the bad guy in the new iTunes download system, I do applaud the website's proponents for attempting to bring a fairer deal to the musicians. That's needed. And more people need to be made aware of how bad and abusive it was in the past. Again, reform efforts should be supported.

 

And if Apple's efforts do anything to break any of the bottlenecks or strangleholds, then so much the better. I see opportunity here for musicans to finally get a fair deal. It may be incremental reforms or sweeping reform which we will see, but as long as it gets better we all win.

 

We will certainly see something new at either Macworld SF or NAMM, and it could change the world or not. We'll see soon.

 

64-bit and "n" number of channels sounds like a good start.

[hmurchison]

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle- Sun Tzu

Yes I applaud the intentions of the webmaster however misguided they are.

 

I fully agree with you on reducing the cost of entry. 5 years ago to make music was much more expensive than today. In 2004 artist have unprecedented power. For the price of a Nice Protools Installation some studios will be able to record and edit music and HiDef video. Artists should let their creativity manifest itself in every creative way possible.

 

I do want the stranglehold of the Big 5 and CC to be broken. I want online music to be dominated by artists who are independent and make music for the love of their art.

 

Almost everywhere you look today artisty has been replace with large conglomerates with links to government. The most exciting products generally come from small companies but they can no longer compete with the conglomerates. It's time to distribute the balance of power a little bit more evenly.

 

The future will sure be insteresting if nothing else.

[Jotown]

Murch, you are right. But one of the biggest costs in the past was studio time, tracking and mixing, and mastering. If Apple's new app comes anywhere near its potential, it could significanly reduce the production costs amd hence increase the artist's share on future product.

We are already there now. There are dozens of apps and configurations that allow any artists with the knowledge, to record, mix, and master their music. It's all about know-how. The new apple vaporware will not come with an Andy Wallace mixing plugin, or a Bob Ludwig mastering plug, or a Lennon/McCartney songwriting filter.

 

The time is now, and the technology is already here. Whatever this new thing is or isn't; If you can't do it with the current available tools, you ain't' gonna' be able to do it with the new Apple, or Microsoft, or Digi whatevermabob.

 

I look forward to any tool that will make the job easier or the final product better. We shall see if it does either.

 

But in the final analysis, if the new distribution model rapes the artist in the same way the old one did; What good is it? iTunes is Apples baby and product. If the disbursement model is flawed, don't blame it on Sony. Blame it on whoever foists it upon us. In this case it is Apple.

[Henchman]

The real PT's killer app:

 

http://www3.telus.net/Home/Pictures/phil.bmp