PT-Killer App Rumoured to be on the way

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

No "PT-Killer" app will make your weak statement suddenly relevant.

Priorities.

I have to agree with Curve on that one even in light of the relevance of discussing technology.First off wer'e debating a rumour,not something that has materialized.I use Sonar on a PC because it's fairly up to date, and since Iv'e been using it so long I can get things done with my eye's closed and focus on inspiration and not technology so much.If I switched apps/platforms constantly whenever one leapfrogs the others I'd be spending more time figuring out how to make it as transparent as what I have now then actually utilizing it to the same degree.Unless my app of choice starts falling off the map competition-wize and I need new featurs to keep up I really don't care what the latest killer app is,especially when it doesn't exsist yet and probably won't benifit me anyway.On the other hand,discussing revolutionary new features of another app when they do materialize is healthy and realevant.

[michael saulnier]

I've heard all about the "new thing" that's coming...

 

It's going to be awesome. They're nearing the final beta... so it should be ready soon.

 

I'd hold off buying anything else in the meantime... just so you wouldn't "miss" the "next big thing"... if you know what I mean.

 

I hear they're planning on practically "giving it away" in the initial release so they can grab a bunch of market-share... Don't expect this to last forever... they've got to recoup all that R&D cost somehow.

 

Jobs himself has "blessed" this, (so I've heard), and they've reportedly been using a prototype for the last 6 months over at Steve's company Pxxxx... (don't quote me on that... it's not public news yet).

 

I heard the whole story months ago, from a friend "in the know", way back on 4/1/03... and let me tell you... this guy's never given me "bad" information before... and he's in a position to know the truth.

 

New ideas. Change minds.

 

It's coming.

 

guitplayer

[Henchman]

Is it still going to be Mac as well as PC, as mentioned before?

[Curve Dominant]

Prediction:

 

It's going to be a re-hash of Logic, hyped as a 64-bit host-based system (as if current platforms aren't already??).

 

It's going to be buggy as all hell.

 

It will be "different," which means nobody will understand it.

 

Or it will be more of the same, in which case nobody will care.

 

It will file-format translate to existing platforms, which will render it redundant; or it will not, which will render it useless.

 

All the plugins we've all got mucho $$$ invested in will not work on it, so all bets are off.

 

Some people will actually use it, but not find it instantly translates to hit records.

 

I dunno, folks.

 

$20 says it's vaporware.

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

Prediction:

It's going to be a re-hash of Logic, hyped as a 64-bit host-based system

That's the thing I'm wondering about.Apple buy's Emagic,so what are they gonna do,compete with themselves? Of course if this thing has any merit to it,Emagic's coding it.The only benifit a native 64 bit DAW app will have is 8gb memory addressing,and on the Apple side of things the G5 will be able to flex it's muscle,but the memory addressing of that size in a DAW app is almost pointless in itself.So if Emagic is behind it(most likely),it will be a new version of Logic that let's the G5 compete with the Athlon FX powerwise.I'm sure they'll throw in a surprise or 2.

[Nawledge]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

So are you saying that Apple's new app ouught to be like Live and Traction?

I hope so,of course that's just my personal taste,

I'm done with midi for the forseeable future, i'm just not inspired by it anymore and only need sync

which the rewire protocol provides very nicely.

I think the quest for golden fleece levels of perfection have turned songwriting into an almost alien endeavor and I consider myself lucky that people coming out with apps like Live, montage, and tracktion, they're like a breathe of fresh air

everything else is so bloated, different people prefer different sides of the brain when it comes to song writing and I think its a great thing that

we have choices to cover all of the many approaches but what I like most about live is that

when working with it I feel the same as when in the past I would sometimes turn the computer off and just work with my hardware, which i've since gotten rid of. now i'm focusing on becoming a more

creatively skilled samplist.

 

deanmass, absolutely!..Live is like the perfect daw, minus midi. craig doesn't talk about it much here but he's writing about it all over the place eq and keyboard. I like to think of it like this, the session view( spreadsheet) is like my mpc, and

the arranger view is like my daw, but that's a beyond simplifying way of describing it, both views and the whole app do so much more it's really phenomenal imho.

 

but I don't want to carjack this thread, I think these days that developers know they need something different than the classic sequencer approach to keep people interested so I wouldn't be suprised it this new app was some sort of classic midi/ unconventional audio hybrid app.

lets hope so

[Henchman]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

 

It's going to be buggy as all hell.

 

You mean like evry new PT release, which is why they almost immediately release an update within 2 months of an official release.

That's ok. They've only been trying to get it right for more than 10 years.

 

It will file-format translate to existing platforms, which will render it redundant; or it will not, which will render it useless.

 

Unlike Digi. Who's main goal is to make sure there is no file-format compatability at all, to ensure that people HAVE to use their crappy software.

 

All the plugins we've all got mucho $$$ invested in will not work on it, so all bets are off.

 

You mean, kinda like when digi released HD?

And the fact thet new plug-ins are focusing only on HD and Accel, making any Mixplus hardware redundant and obsolete.

[Philter]

Originally posted by Henchman:

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

 

It's going to be buggy as all hell.

 

You mean like evry new PT release, which is why they almost immediately release an update within 2 months of an official release.

That's ok. They've only been trying to get it right for more than 10 years.

 

It will file-format translate to existing platforms, which will render it redundant; or it will not, which will render it useless.

 

Unlike Digi. Who's main goal is to make sure there is no file-format compatability at all, to ensure that people HAVE to use their crappy software.

 

All the plugins we've all got mucho $$$ invested in will not work on it, so all bets are off.

 

You mean, kinda like when digi released HD?

And the fact thet new plug-ins are focusing only on HD and Accel, making any Mixplus hardware redundant and obsolete.

Henchman, I think it's pretty clear that your problem with PT stems from the poor quality studios that you tend to work at, and their concurrent lack of knowledgable tech guys. It's also clear that your constant trolling is intended to justify your purchase of a marginalized platform.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

[QB]I've heard all about the "new thing" that's coming...

 

It's going to be awesome. They're nearing the final beta... so it should be ready soon.

Well...there are already quite a few apps out there that probably sound as good...and some even better...than PT.

And yet...PT still sits at the top of the DAW heap.

 

Thing is...to truly "kill PT"...it's going to take a lot more that just a better DAW product. You also have to find a way to remove many years of marketing hypnosis and hype that were fed to the audio community…especially the newbies.

Like...how many people have bought into PT just because the word "Pro" is part of its name?

 

I'm not suggesting that PT is total garbage or anything as extreme as that...but it really has gotten it's huge following as much from cleaver, timely marketing and hype...as it has from actual sound quality and usability.

 

Any new product coming out will have quite a challenge “un-brainwashing” all those that use PT just because they think it makes them a "Pro".

 

Yup...lots of great tools out there!

[Henchman]

Originally posted by Philter:

Henchman, I think it's pretty clear that your problem with PT stems from the poor quality studios that you tend to work at, and their concurrent lack of knowledgable tech guys.

Yes, I agree. A Euphonics System 5 and Neve VR's are amongst the low level stuff that just can't compare to a product like PT. And installing and maintaining a studio that uses such gear can be left in the hands of a highscholl dropout.

 

BTW. I have asked every single PT OWNER at the places I have worked, if they have problems with their systems. And they all do. Crahes left right and center.

But, none of them know what bthey're doing, right. It must be the weather up here.

[Henchman]

Originally posted by miroslav:

Originally posted by guitplayer:

[QB]

 

Thing is...to truly "kill PT"...it's going to take a lot more that just a better DAW product.

If they can deliver a 100% stable, relatively inexpensive system, that can run natively with little or negligeble latencey, and can talk to various other programs. They'll have a winner. Especially with apple behind them.

 

Look at Final Cut pro. It took them no-time at all to get market share with that product. Even with Avids so deeply entrenched in the marketplace.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

Prediction:

 

It's going to be a re-hash of Logic, hyped as a 64-bit host-based system (as if current platforms aren't already??).

 

It's going to be buggy as all hell.

 

It will be "different," which means nobody will understand it.

 

Or it will be more of the same, in which case nobody will care.

 

It will file-format translate to existing platforms, which will render it redundant; or it will not, which will render it useless.

 

All the plugins we've all got mucho $$$ invested in will not work on it, so all bets are off.

 

Some people will actually use it, but not find it instantly translates to hit records.

 

I dunno, folks.

 

$20 says it's vaporware.

Well, you speculate all you like, but I aint gonna waste my time in idle chit chat about equipment that don't yet exist and don't matter no-how. Cause as much as you all gotta flap yer gums about the latest doohickeys and whatnots, someone a lot wiser than you once said:

 

For every platform, there is an engineer who makes that platform sing beautifully.

 

Or not.

 

It is, or it isn't.

 

Whatever you use to produce music, you still have to make it happen. Peeps are moved by your music, or they aren't.

 

As long as your art is culturally relevant, you may as well be using tin cans and waxed string.

 

As long as your art is irrelevant, you can have a $100,000 studio with a "PT-Killer" this and that, and you are still in the shit.

 

Priorities.

 

He's saying "it's about the music, stupid," and I'm inclined to agree. Who cares about the dang equipment anywho? (I will say that at least you got the good sense to say this thingamabob gonna be a piece a shit before ya even seen the damn thing. I will give you that, my friend, I will give you that).

 

 

-cee ttanylips

[HiRoller]

Check it out: http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=09a32d974624875243d717338595c6be&threadid=35690

 

Thanks to the rec pit for the link.

[Saint Johnny B]

Looks like it will soon be more interesting to make music and edit it.

 

Bring it on home!

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by Alndln FX-51:

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

Prediction:

It's going to be a re-hash of Logic, hyped as a 64-bit host-based system

That's the thing I'm wondering about.Apple buy's Emagic,so what are they gonna do,compete with themselves? Of course if this thing has any merit to it,Emagic's coding it.The only benifit a native 64 bit DAW app will have is 8gb memory addressing,and on the Apple side of things the G5 will be able to flex it's muscle,but the memory addressing of that size in a DAW app is almost pointless in itself.So if Emagic is behind it(most likely),it will be a new version of Logic that let's the G5 compete with the Athlon FX powerwise.I'm sure they'll throw in a surprise or 2.

No the rumors state that this app was in development "before" the Emagic acquisition. Therefore I expect to see an app with relatively little code sharing from Emagic. I kind of doubt it's 64bit but if it is I will be pleased. Not just for the extra memory addresseability but because 64bits allows for more mathmatical calculations and I assume that a DAW has to crunch serious numbers to maintain accuracy.

 

Boy I do hope that Apple has beefed up the Surround Sound aspects of this app. Wouldn't it be great to be able to burn 24/96 comps on DVD-Audio discs? Apple was once rumored to be looking at purchasing Minnetonka Audio(DVD-Audio Authoring). I'd love to see DTS Encode support as well. A.Pack is getting old in the tooth. Time for nextgen tools.

 

Ahhhhh I love software! I can't wait.

[Saint Johnny B]

I hear the head of Emagic has moved to Cupertino Ca, Apple HQ. But the rest of Emagic's staff remains doing there own thing in Germany.

 

I also hear it is "for sure" going to be 64-bit.

 

So that should make you happy.

[Curve Dominant]

I also hear it is "for sure" going to be 64-bit.

It's worth pointing out, that there is already a 64-bit platform in existence: Digi 002 on a G5.

 

Hey, guys, look: IF Apple pulls this thing out and it works well for peeps, God bless it. Competition is good. Do you think I really mind if Digidesign is being kept on its toes? Hell no.

 

But do you really think it's going to be a "PT-Killer"?? If you're a "PT-Hater" I'm sure you have fairly specific fantasies in that regard. But the more I study engineering, the more I've developed a rational outlook on things, and I'm sorry but I just don't see your fantasies of PT going down in flames as having any basis in reality in this particular case.

 

BUT, the more I find out about this (as yet untested and unproven) product, the more I see potential for it. All I was trying to say from the start was: Try taking a balanced perspective on it..

 

Apogee's involvement is interesting. Apogee was pushing hard for involvement in Digi's HD development, and they got "left at the alter" in that regard. Digi went straight to Ed Meitner, and designed their own convertors for HD, which anyone in the PRO end will tell you truly tipped the balance away from analog superiority. HD had even the old-school analog hold-outs in LA drinking the Pro Tools coolaid. The 192 PTHD convertors put the "Pro" in Pro Tools, once and for all.

 

Apogee, then smarting from that slight, turned to Mackie and Soundscape. Rumours subsequently abounded that Mackie had a monster app in the pipes. This was confirmed to me by a Mackie executive over a year ago, who's father happens to be an artist who was exhibiting in the gallery underneath my studio. Hell, even I was convinced, but we still haven't seen this thing yet.

 

Now, Apogee is in cahoots with the new Logic, and once again we're hearing about some "PT-Killer." I dunno, man. Apogee makes damn good convertors, don't get me wrong, but they're not the ONLY company that makes damn good convertors. And there's a LOT more to an industry-standard DAW than decent convertors. Just ask Barry Henderson at IZ Corp.

 

On the otherhand, there is a potentially huge market for Apple to nudge in against Cubase, Reason, Fruityloops, Cakewalk, et al, as long as the price-point is competitive. Which could concievably cut into Digi's market IRT the MBox, or possibly the 002 to some project studio-market extent.

 

But until it becomes something that every high-end studio in the world has installed and ready to record with, with in-house techs knowing it inside out, it is simply vaporware IRT being a "PT-Killer." The whole point of Pro Tools is its cross-platform compatibility. PT sessions can be emailed around the globe, cherry-picking the best in music and engineering talent along the way, and sent right back to your crib, inserted right back into your mix, just like that.

 

It also happens to be a very cool program, IMHO. I've been using it for 2+ years now, and I still love it, unlike anything I've ever used to record/produce with - 2" tape and Neve console included.

 

YMMV.

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

It's worth pointing out, that there is already a 64-bit platform in existence: Digi 002 on a G5.

Not yet,neither Apple(OSX Panther) or Wndows(except the beta Win 2003 Server)have 64 bit OS's out,although the next XP update will include it.Audio hardware and OS software bits are not quite the same thing.There are 64 bit apps on Linux that have nothing to do with audio for instance.

[Brittanylips]

Since DAWs have moved past the transitional phase in which they had to cater to a tape mentality and immitate tape to get people to use them, they are ready for a good new app. In a sense, just as ProTools looked to tape as a starting point (to harvest tape-based customers), the next DAW looks to ProTools as a starting point to harvest its userbase, but has more flexibility to implement a forward-looking rather than legacy GUI.

 

As for the notion that Apple does not have an incentive to compete with itself w/ respect to Logic -- that's not exactly how Apple perceives its acquisition. The eMagic userbase is less important to Apple than the potential of its underlying technology. What Apple has done in the past, and what it is most likely doing here, is bringing in the assets of an acquisition -- personnel, technology, etc. -- in order to produce and promote an Apple-identified product that has wider market appeal than the original product. It's the same formula Apple used with FinalCut Pro, and their DVD app --

 

If Apple does come out with a pro audio app, it's unclear how it will allign with Logic. But what is clear is that the new app would be easier to use, and seek a greater market share.

 

Logic's Achilles heals are 1) too complicated, and 2) lacks a strong Logic-identified hardware interface. 1) Simplifying interface is Apple's specialty, and 2) with most users using MOTU and RME, with a few alternatives from the cultish (Metric Halo), to the low end (mAudio), to the high end (Prism), Apple would want to co-develop an interface that would be as affordable as MOTU, but have more high-end credibility. If Apple can produce an interface with a partner like Apogee, then it may very well tread on ProTools' turf, leveraging its ability to implement faster chips faster than Digi, establish Audio Units as a standard, and use its world-class promotion and distribution as a way to unseat the "I've got to buy ProTools to remain compatible" mentality that continues to reverberate from NY and LA.

 

-ceettanylips

[EXAGON]

The problem is not finding a PT killer, but a MENTALITY killer.

The mentality is that "PT is the best"

The facts are that PT WAS the best 5 years ago.

Now PT is the weakest.

So any DAW is a PT killer, but you have to kill your illusions before.

[spokenward]

Since we are talking about Apple here, shouldn't we have more rumors about MacWorld rather than NAMM? And since most of Apple's substantial software projects like Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro and Logic are developed through acquisition, shouldn't we be looking for prominent developers who have recently and suddenly been cloaked and disappeared?

[Henchman]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

The whole point of Pro Tools is its cross-platform compatibility. .

This is jus not true. As You HAVE to be a PT's user to use it's sessions.

So it's not cross platform compatible at all. And to be able to export an OMF so somebody else who prefers to use somethign else, you have to spend another $500,- to enable a feature already built-in, namely, OMF import and export.

 

And that's my big complaint. They are FORCING people to use their stuff. It's not an option.

 

I can start something on the Fairlight and give it to a Pro-Tools user, a Nuendo User, or a Logic User in the form of an OMF, they can open it, work on it, and send it back to me. No extra cost to them.

However, everytime I have dealt with a PT user, 99% do not have digitranslator, or even know what an OMF is.

[Saint Johnny B]

Again, many companies identify in-house projects as a "blankety-blank killer," it does not really mean the other product dies, at least not right way. What it does mean is that there will be increased competition. As to handling the A-to-D and D-to-A process, I'd say Apple can handle that little technical issue without too much difficulty. If they can do video, and they do it well, then audio will be that much easier. The trick will be to integrate the two in a seemless fashion. Apple will do it, and they will do it well.

 

I think it would be wise to look for a product from Apple that aims at pro-level audio engineers to do tracking, mixing, and mastering. Also, there may be a way to post product, advertise it, and sell it on Apple's on-line distribution system.

 

The audio world looks as if it may soon be in for some radical changes. I hope Apple does it right and leads us all in the right direction.

[Anderton]

I wonder what this means to a company like MOTU, which has been a loyal supporter of the Mac since the days of the Mac Plus. Surely they must be nervous if Apple itself is planning to be a direct competitor, including both hardware and software. With Apple's move into GC, I assume the hype will be for Apple products, not those from MOTU, Digi, etc.

 

Interesting. But ultimately, it will be just another way to record and edit music. Maybe faster in some ways, slower in others. Unless, of course, it helps you write a really good bridge...

[Dylan]

Originally posted by Henchman:

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

The whole point of Pro Tools is its cross-platform compatibility. .

This is jus not true. As You HAVE to be a PT's user to use it's sessions.

So it's not cross platform compatible at all. And to be able to export an OMF so somebody else who prefers to use somethign else, you have to spend another $500,- to enable a feature already built-in, namely, OMF import and export.

Ding ding ding! Also, one must save the Mac session as cross-platform for it to work on a PC ProTools session. While companines like MOTU and Cakewalk include OMF to support cross platform transfers Digi charges extra for it. Bastards !I can do tons more in Sonar 3 than I can with ProTools because unlike PT, Sonar doesn't have any limits to how many tracks, plug-ins, busses, etc., I can use. That's the main reason why I will never bow down to Digi or Apple.

[Saint Johnny B]

I dunno Craig, some of the smaller companies like MOTU usually find a crack or niche to fill, most of the better companies are quite nimble and have a way of adapting to new market conditions. I would not expect that MOTU and the others were not let in on what Apple was doing, but this is really a move that Apple must make. Apple has to do this.

[EXAGON]

Johnny B wrote:

"you may see some leading edge features, things that have never been done before. Can Apple do that?"

If you look at the Apple history, you will see that almost everything they did was never done before.

 

Apple often comes up with something that changes the world

It's true.

 

Coaster wrote:

"digi add more features? ha ha ha ha ha.

no, rather they would remove some more features again and call it an upgrade"

unfortunately they did so since 1997, and the strange thing is that Microsoft did so too, and most people LIKE THAT.

We should ask a psychologist why.

 

Geoff Grace wrote:

Arboretum's Montage Was it too different? Was it too basic?

It was too strange. Professionals need simple yet powerful tools.

 

Curve Dominant wrote:

For every platform, there is an engineer who makes that platform sing beautifully.

for GREAT platforms this is true.

 

aliengroover wrote:

there are still people using the MPC60, as well as Ataris, M1s, ADATs, etc.

Yes, because they are great tools, simple and powerful, but remember that there are tons of gears that disappeared from every studio because they were difficult to operate or had bad performances/sound (bad is subjective)

 

Henchman wrote:

Is it still going to be Mac as well as PC, as mentioned before?

Apple seems to differentiate the pro from the consumer market.

Professional products are ignoring Windows (Logic, Shake, FCP, DvdStudio Pro,...)

Consumer products (the only one for now is iTunes) are for Windows too.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Anderton:

...it will be just another way to record and edit music. Maybe faster in some ways, slower in others. Unless, of course, it helps you write a really good bridge...

Craig,

 

You hit on it!

 

There still is no platform, software, stompbox, plugin, et al, in existence which will automatically create a really good bridge for a song.

 

So far, that task still requires a carbon-based homo-sapien lifeform.

 

It's that thing which makes a song "human."

 

As long as the machines try to be human, they will need our humanity.

[Saint Johnny B]

8 more days till MacWorld SF, we may have an official announcement then.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by EXAGON:

Johnny B wrote:

"you may see some leading edge features, things that have never been done before. Can Apple do that?"

If you look at the Apple history, you will see that almost everything they did was never done before..

Come on now, you are buying the Jobs propoganda. Apple does what Apple does very well, but most of what they have done had already been done before. In some cases they've done it better, in some cases they do not.

Apple often comes up with something that changes the world

It's true.

According to whom?

Henchman wrote:

Is it still going to be Mac as well as PC, as mentioned before?

Apple seems to differentiate the pro from the consumer market.

Professional products are ignoring Windows (Logic, Shake, FCP, DvdStudio Pro,...)

Consumer products (the only one for now is iTunes) are for Windows too.

At one point in time that may have been true, but it certainly is not true now. The world of personal computer platforms has virtually converged. There is just about nothing that can not be done on either platform at this point in time. I have and use both. To suggest that only Apple is a professional platform is simply untrue. It may be your preference, and it may also be your opinion; but that does not make it true.

 

As Craig stated above and Curve quoted: "neither will compose a great bridge." And I will add that both will allow you to make a professional recording of a good song if you know what you are doing. And if you don't, the platform doesn't really matter.