So I bought a new XW-P1

[Bossbandbob]

No problem Guru,

I'm using VB3 with Cantalibe 2.0 C Lite I'm somewhat of a newbee to Midi and not sure how to assign channels to sliders or buttons. I do know how to select the midi channels through the function menu in the WK-7500. When I press the drawbar organ button on the WK, I can get the 3 red midi lights at the bottom right of the Cantalibe screen to light up when moving each slider and also by pressing a few other buttons on the WK. The Mod wheel also does the same but nothing moves on the VB3 control screen. With that drawbar organ button 'off' all that will get those midi lights on are the keys and footpedal (which controls the Leslie speed). The keys do produce the VB3 tone and the slow fast botton on VB3 flips back and forth with the foot pedal. Any suggestions on how I would go about assigning the other buttons?

 

Edit: just found the "MIDI Learn/right click function instructions on the page 12 VB3 pdf. I'll give that a try tomorrow night.

[Markay]

Even the WK-7500's sliders can be assigned to VB3's drawbars. Having only USB out make absolutely no difference.

 

I don't think so but I haven't tested recently. The WK-7500 doesn't send normal CC's with the sliders. I trust you if you say it does but I didn't think this was the case.

 

I'm with Mike, I had no luck getting drawsliders etc. on the WK7500 to send anything meaningful to Cantabile. Keyboard notes, mod wheel and Leslie button IRRC were the only items that sent CC's externally.

 

That is the one benefit of the XW-P1, it sends CC's for all controls. At its price point it makes a very good midi controller board even if you don't use any of the internal sounds.

[Bossbandbob]

I actually did get the drawbars and knobs to partially work with the WK 7500 when I hit the Drawbar Organ button but they will only either open or close completely depending upon polarity set. There is no variable control.A couple of the WK's bank buttons will change VB3 presets. So there is some kind of midi signal reaching them. I'll try it later tonight with VST Host. The only thing I can get to actually work besides 2 presets is the leslie button or foot pedal and the keys.

[Mike Martin]

Bossbandbob,

I'm sorry but I really don't think drawbar control of VB3 will be possible with the WK-7500, it was never really designed to communicate as a MIDI controller in this fashion. Of course the keyboard will work and you could likely assign the sustain pedal to do a rotary speed switch. I'm not sure what the percussion buttons send but again that might be exclusive for the WK-7500.

 

This is one area that was addressed in the XW-P1 as mentioned above. The last time I used it, even set up knobs for chorus/vibrato selection, distortion and reverb I think.

[Ashville.Guru]

Bossbandbob - my bad, sorry. It was quite some time ago that I played around with sysex and stuff, and I now recall it involved some deep programming with Max and stuff (and not through midi plugins/host functionality as I earlier posted).

 

Like I said, not impossible. Just not straightforward .

 

If you've got Ableton Live with Max for Live, you could put together a module that will map the non-standard midi output from the WK's drawbars into standard CCs. Otherwise, I'd be looking at the XW-P1. Or perhaps a Korg NanoKontrol...

[Bossbandbob]

Yeah, no way will it work with either host I tried. I'll have to look into the XW-P1 again or another controler. BTW The Ipad and GarageBand, etc. work pretty well with the WK and some sounds are pretty good. The GB organs IMO would be very usable through a Ventilator if there was some way to shut off the GB organ's leslie. Maybe on GB's next update...

[Bossbandbob]

Besides all the cool synth patches and layers it has, does the XW-P1 share most of the same other voices as the WK-7500? in other words, would the Grand Piano, Bright Piano, Wurlitzer, String Ensemble, Jazz Organ, etc (going from memory here) be coming from the same sound engine that the WK has?

[Mike Martin]

Besides all the cool synth patches and layers it has, does the XW-P1 share most of the same other voices as the WK-7500? in other words, would the Grand Piano, Bright Piano, Wurlitzer, String Ensemble, Jazz Organ, etc (going from memory here) be coming from the same sound engine that the WK has?

 

Yes

[Bossbandbob]

Thanks, Mike

[Bossbandbob]

Bossbandbob -

Or perhaps a Korg NanoKontrol...

 

Would a Nano Control somehow hook up to both the WK-7500 (or any other synth) and my Laptop so I could control VB3 with the WK's keys and the Nanocontrol's sliders and knobs?

[Mike Martin]

Sure. As long as you have two USB ports on your computer, one for the XW and the other for the Nanocontrol

[David Loving]

You will need a USB hub, like Belkin Mini-hub to connect the three parts: Korg nano, keyboard controller (casio XW-P1) and audio interface, to the laptop. The audio interface goes out to the amp. If you just want to listen on headphones, or use the headphone out, you're OK with just the two usb ports on the laptop. The only thing about the Korg Nano is no program change. If you need it maybe the XW-P1 will send program change to your software, otherwise use a mouse.

[Ashville.Guru]

The only thing about the Korg Nano is no program change. If you need it maybe the XW-P1 will send program change to your software, otherwise use a mouse.

 

My firm conviction is that a musician should never need to use a mouse on stage...! With many host/plugin combinations, it's possible to re-assign midi messages from controllers. In Bidule, I've mapped the buttons on my nanoKontrol to send program change messages (increment and decrement). I've been using it live this way for quite sometime.

[Bossbandbob]

My question was about hooking up my WK-7500 to the Nanokontrol so I can control drawbars and other knobs on VB3 with it, not an XW-p1 which can already control VB3 with no external devices. Why would I need a USB hub if my laptop already has two USB ins? I would just use the earphone out jack on the laptop to my mixer.

 

According to Mike M, ( I think this is what he meant), I would just hook the WK-7500 into one USB on the laptop and Nanokontrol into the other USB input on the laptop?

 

If this works, for about 50$ for the Nano, which I could velcro to the top of the WK-7500, this would give me a 76 key lightweight controller board (that I could split into 2 manuals on VB3) with pretty decent action for organ (IMO) for VB3.

Also thinking of replacing my laptop with a smaller 2-USB Netbook which I could get used for about 150$ and maybe velcro to the top of the WK as well.

[Ashville.Guru]

The key point is, VIs like VB3, with proper hosts, can accept input from multiple independent devices. So yes, VB3 will respond to notes from the WK-7500, and simultaneously the drawbars will respond to the nanoKontrol. The nanoKontrol need not be connected to the WK-7500; in fact it can't! Since your laptop has two USB ins, you're good to go; 1 for the WK-7500 and the other for the nanoKontrol.

 

I've used a CDP-100 with the nanoKontrol in exactly this way.

 

Also thinking of replacing my laptop with a smaller 2-USB Netbook which I could get used for about 150$ and maybe velcro to the top of the WK as well.

Heads-up: Expect a lot more latency with a netbook vs. a proper laptop. I strongly recommend that you test it out before you sell your laptop!

[Bossbandbob]

I'd keep my laptop either way but check out this post by Burningbusch (scroll down) with no complaint or indication of latency with the netbook video NEtb

Right now I'm working on a deals for the exact same netbook for 100$ used and the Nano for 25$ on CL.

[Ashville.Guru]

I remember that discussion very well, having participated in it myself. Bossbandbob, please note the context in which BurningBusch made that post. It was to specifically demonstrate that a netbook is better option than an iPad in the same price range:

 

You can switch between sounds instantly either from the computer keyboard or MIDI program change. The notion that there's nothing in the iPad price range that can do similar/better isn't accurate.

Basically: Laptop >> Netbook >> iPad.

 

We've had several elaborate discussions on this subject earlier (examples here, here and here).

 

It's a fairly complicated issue, and my sincere recommendation is to tread with caution.

 

[Bossbandbob]

I appreciate the advice, Guru. I am nowhere near an expert on this stuff! For what its worth this is Guido's comment on the Netbook used in the video:

"With that particular configuration I could set 256 buffers at 44.1 KHz of sampling rate, which gives about 7-8 ms of latency, which is good enough for live playing. This is an extreme solution at a very low cost, but still pretty stable and reliable. But I think that playing "on the edge" isn't advisable, so a more powerful PC and a better audio card with proprietary ASIO support would be better. I think an Intel ATOM N270 and a ESI UGM96 will be fine."

[AnotherScott]

I remember that discussion very well, having participated in it myself. Bossbandbob, please note the context in which BurningBusch made that post. It was to specifically demonstrate that a netbook is better option than an iPad in the same price range:

 

You can switch between sounds instantly either from the computer keyboard or MIDI program change. The notion that there's nothing in the iPad price range that can do similar/better isn't accurate.

Basically: Laptop >> Netbook >> iPad.

I agree, the context of Busch's post is important, but I don't think you quite got it there! Busch was specifically comparing GSI Key Performer on a Netbook with what's available on an iPad, to (nicely) disprove my assertion that you could not get an equally effective "sound module" out of any kind of PC for the price of an iPad. He showed that you could. I don't think he was necessarily claiming it was better. And that's probably a tough call, as there are subjective variables there, not just in the sounds of what's available, but also things like interface and ergonomics. But at a minimum, there are solutions that are competitive, i.e. GSI.

 

Also, though, bossbandbob's comment (to which you were replying) was about latency, and I don't think Busch said anything about netbook beating ipad there. There was some interesting conversation on that topic in the same thread, but nothing that seemed conclusive.

 

(original thread at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2486741/Re_iPad_as_Sound_Module )

[Bossbandbob]

I can appreciate and understand the above discussion. However, it would be nice to know if any netbook is OK to use in a live setting re. latency. Why? My Toshiba laptop which has ASIO4all installed has no obvious latency (to me, at least) used with VB3 and Widows 7. However,although it's 15.4 in. screen is great for a lot of other things, it makes it too big and heavy to mount anywhere on my keyboards or stand. A netbook or ipad sure would be a more compact and convenient solution. The Ipad can't support any decent organ aps or VST's yet but it sure looks like netbooks can. Can't ASIO4all be installed on netbooks to deal with latency issues or do they just not have enough processing power?

[Ashville.Guru]

I can appreciate and understand the above discussion. However, it would be nice to know if any netbook is OK to use in a live setting re. latency.

Bossbandbob - only you can answer that question, as there is no universal gold standard as to what is "OK re. latency". 10 ms might be the minimum acceptable standard to one player, 20 to another, and I'm sure you can find someone who can make wonderful music with 30ms latency without being bothered by it.

 

The only inescapable, incontrovertible fact: Less CPU power, more latency. Yes, even with ASIO4all/any other driver. The fundamental laws of computers mandate this, and every bit of evidence out there agrees with this wholeheartedly.

 

Ergo, the netbook will, most certainly, add a few more milliseconds. But exactly how much more? And will that bother you while playing? No amount of online discussion can answer those questions for you. You'll have to try it out for yourself. Hence my 'heads up'.

 

FWIW: I've actually played live running TruePianos on a netbook. The latency was noticeable. But once the gig started, it didn't bother me as much as I expected it to, in fact forgot all about it. Maybe my timing was off, or my solos weren't as inspired, but I can't be sure - who knows what effect it could have subconciously. So why take chances? I'm happy with my big, bulky 15" laptop - because I play with the lid closed, neatly tucked away, on the ground. 'Mounting' the laptop at a height is never an issue for me. YMMV.

 

- Guru

 

Small side note: in the interest of people searching for info on the XW-P1, you might want to consider opening a new thread when the question veers off topic. No biggie, though!

[Markay]

I can appreciate and understand the above discussion. However, it would be nice to know if any netbook is OK to use in a live setting re. latency. Why? My Toshiba laptop which has ASIO4all installed has no obvious latency (to me, at least) used with VB3 and Windows 7. However,although it's 15.4 in. screen is great for a lot of other things, it makes it too big and heavy to mount anywhere on my keyboards or stand. A netbook or ipad sure would be a more compact and convenient solution. The Ipad can't support any decent organ aps or VST's yet but it sure looks like netbooks can. Can't ASIO4all be installed on netbooks to deal with latency issues or do they just not have enough processing power?

 

Bob,

You might like to think ponder a little longer on this. Yes a netbook may well run VB3 OK with no noticeable latency, but if you are taking a netbook along to a gig why not consider running more than just VB3 from it, assuming you use other tones like EP's or AP's, brass patches etc. This is where you will run into the limitations of a netbook sooner than you will with a well spec'd laptop.

 

The better the processor and larger then RAM the better your setup will cope with sampled sounds and having a concert or similar loaded in memory and ready to go.

 

A refurb laptop will cost more than a netbook but will have a longer life if you end wanting to use more VST's than just VB3. Don't underestimate the time you will spend first time round setting up a netbook/laptop rig, you don't want to find that you need to upgrade your machine in 6 months if you can avoid it.

 

The onstage solution for a laptop that works for me is the Quiklok X stand laptop holder and it holds the laptop tight, takes 30 secs to attach and remove from the stand and keeps the laptop off to the left of the keyboard so it is not between me and the audience. They make a Z stand version also.

http://www.quiklok.com/catalog/?p=productsMore&iProduct=479&sName=LPH-X

 

 

[Bossbandbob]

Yeah, Thinking of starting another thread but this one did not seem to be going anywhere about the XW P1 for awhile anyway. Well I certainly could save a few bucks by just using my present laptop. For now I would only want it for VB3 but who knows in the immediate future. With the other voices I just use a hardware synth at this point.. In the meantime I'll turn this thread back over to the XW-p1 discussion. It seems like very time I buy a Casio board they come out with some thing better about a month after I get around to buying it so I may wait to see what their next board looks like. Maybe a 76 key version of the XW P1 with expression pedal input ?

[Synthoid]

I'll turn this thread back over to the XW-p1 discussion.

 

Ah... thank you.

 

It had become rather derailed there.

 

[WillNeverPost]

This thread didn't just derail - the train actually died.

 

Seems a shame to waste such a good thread title, especially since I myself just got an XW-P1 (as of yesterday) and Mike Martin is still providing unparalleled user support answering questions here, there and seemingly everywhere.

 

Mike (or anyone who can help), for us XW-P1 newbies who don't yet have experience with all the capabilities of this keyboard (although I think I have read every review, including Craig Anderton's over at Harmony Central, and watched nearly all of Mike's excellent video tutorials) can you recommend the best way to implement articulations with an instrument voice? By articulations, I mean triggering different variations of a sound based on, for example, playing legato or staccato or using various controllers? Is this even possible? I know you can do velocity switching in the Hexlayer mode but is that the only way to switch between sounds based on playing technique?

 

Bearing in mind the limitations of the XW-P1's architecture, if I were to attempt to create, say, an expressive violin sound, which normally requires multiple articulations, would I be better using the solo synth mode, with judicious choice of PCM waves, synth waves and perhaps noise in combination, or with the Hexlayer mode?

 

On a related note, I understand that several of the piano PCM melody tones are velocity switched (three levels, IIRC). Are any other PCM tones (melody and/or percussion) also velocity switched? Does the user have any control of velocity switching when it is thus implemented or is it "inherent" to the tone?

 

How exactly are the PCM "waves" listed in the appendix utilized in the PCM tones? I see that the stereo pianos have three waves for left and three waves for right, which seems to make sense, assuming that each wave is multisampled over the pitch range (as they must be for this instrument and most others!). But some of the other waves come in A and B versions: Are these based on samples at different intensities of the instrument or are they just different variations in unspecified ways?

 

Also, there is a footnote in the table of waves that applies to many of them that says "With these waves one type of wave is allocated to the entire tone range. They cannot be selected by the hex layer tone." Where CAN they be selected? I notice, for instance, 150 such piano waves in the list (0799 - 0938). Are these essentially the multisamples that are used by other piano waves (000 - 022)?

 

I ask all these many questions because I want to understand the internal architecture of this beast, which I believe will allow me to create better, hopefully more expressive patches than I could otherwise. Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

 

[Synthoid]

This thread didn't just derail - the train actually died.

 

As the original poster, I've enjoyed the journey, but you're correct.

 

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/10/train.jpg

 

Seems a shame to waste such a good thread title, especially since I myself just got an XW-P1 (as of yesterday) and Mike Martin is still providing unparalleled user support answering quesions here, there and seemingly everywhere.

 

I hope Mike can help... but since this thread has been around for such a long time, perhaps starting a new one would be better.

 

[Mike Martin]

For acoustic instruments the best way to do articulations are using Hex Layers. Having different elements come in a different velocities is very cool. There are some orchestral ones in this bank that should show you what I mean:

 

https://xwsynth.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/download-new-xw-p1-sounds-2/

 

Which mode really depends on the type of a sound. The Solo mode is obviously monophonic so it will lend itself to flutes or trumpets and of course the XW's strength, Synths.

 

For PCM tones you can't get to the waves. You can only edit from pre-existing values...basically as offsets. So start with something that is close to what you're looking for then edit its filter, envelope or effect.

 

FYI guys, I'm headed out on vacation...so I'll be a little absent for tech support for the next week or so. Please utilize the Casio forums which are linked in my signature, there are quite a few XW owners over there.

[WillNeverPost]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for replying. Do any of those XW owners at the Casio forums know enough about the detailed architecture of the XW-P1 to answer those of my questions you didn't tackle in your reply (such as how PCM waves are organized and used by PCM tones)? I'm guessing the answer is "none." If so, I'm going to store up more questions for when you get back from vacation. Have a good one.

[Mike Martin]

As mentioned above, the structure of PCM tones is fixed - you can't see which waves are used. That being said, essentially all of the available waves in the XW-P1 are visible in a Hex Layer sound.

 

The guys over on the forum are pretty well informed.

[WillNeverPost]

Okay, thanks, I'll check the Casio forums out. Even though you can't edit the structure of PCM tones, I'd still like to know how they are structured. The PCM wave list is mighty mysterious without knowing that. Call it insatiable curiosity. But maybe Casio considers this proprietary IP? If so I can't imagine why - it's not like romplers haven't been doing the same things for years.