LeesKeys Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'm using M-Audio Fast Track as an external sound card for my midi-vst setup. M-audio, 2 keyboards, and a Korg NanoKontroler are connected to my laptop. I'm using Cantabile Performer as my DAW. I've set M-Audio as my audio engine in Cantabile. Out of the back of the M-Audio I'm using the L/R RCA jacks to run into a Y cable, which plugs into a 1/4" cable which in turn runs directly into a channel of my Behringer K3000fx. I'm getting a good signal to the amp. The problem is that when using M-Audio as my sound card, I'm getting a continuous high-pitched tone coming through the amp. It's loud enough to be annoying. Interestingly, if I keep everything the same, but take M-Audio out of the loop and use my internal sound card along with Asio4All as my audio driver, THE TONE DISAPPEARS. If I use M-Audio, but disconnect the audio out, plug into the headphone jack and listen to sounds via head phones, the sound is fine- no annoying tone. Any idea what could be going on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Most likely related to USB. USB has been known to add noise to audio setups like what you're describing. You could try different cables to see if there's any improvement. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Might be worthwhile trying putting a DI in the signal chain, set to lift the ground. (if headphones sound OK, but the signal to FOH doesn't). Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I bet if you unplug your laptop power supply and run off battery, it goes away. USB ground loop. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 That is definitely a possibility. Notebook power supplies operate at a high enough frequency to produce some whine. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Right -- just to clarify, the noise doesn't get added to the signal as it passes on USB. Instead, the ground on the USB plus the ground on the power cord for the M-Audio plus your computer's power cable make a ground loop. Make sure the M-Audio is plugged into the same receptacle (or power strip) as the computer. If it already is, try turning either plug around, if it's not a 3-prong or polarized plug. BTW, you shouldn't be using a Y cable to sum the outputs of your M-Audio to mono. It's far better to run two lines to the amp, if you feel you need stereo summing. IMHO, the vast majority of stereo sounds work way better using just one side, than summed. There are some significant counterexamples, of course. In any case, I bet Cantabile has a mono option. I would use that (and use it selectively rather than applied to everything). Haven't fired up Cantabile in a while, though, and don't know how it might be selected. If Cantabile doesn't have a built-in method, no doubt there's a free VST to do it (http://mda-vst.com "image" plug would work, though it's actually a mid-side codec.) I doubt summing your outputs is the cause, but still, it's not how the parts are designed to work. Each output is working to drive the output to an exact voltage. When you tie them together, you make them fight: each trying to drive the output to its desired level, and both failing. It causes more current draw, and potentially can fry the parts if done too long. This used to be a serious problem; manufacturers have since beefed up the output buffering to reduce it as a cause for failure. But you're still running the parts in a way they're not intended. Just use one channel, and for any patches where you want summing, figure out how to do that in Cantabile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 thanks. To clarify about my setup, M-Audio is strictly USB powered, not AC.the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 the whine continues when the laptop is unplugged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 Please clarify. DI means ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourniplus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hi Leeskeys, I had exactly the same problem you mention until I put a D.I. with ground lift between my audio interface and my mixer. That means you have to go to 1/4 inch in some way. Or use a D.I. (also known around here as a direct box) that has rca inputs. "Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints." My homemade instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 would that be something like this? http://www.adorama.com/ROLDB25B.html?gclid=CNKX4M21i7UCFQHonAodRQ4AdQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourniplus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 would that be something like this? http://www.adorama.com/ROLDB25B.html?gclid=CNKX4M21i7UCFQHonAodRQ4AdQ Yes. I was surprised when it solved my problem, because in fact it didn't sound like a ground loop hum. It sounded more "digital", like it increased when the cpu was working harder, when you'd use the mouse, etc. Go figure. All I know is it worked, and a D.I. is a good thing to have in your arsenal anyway. An older IBM Thinkpad I used never had this issue, and when I switched to another laptop (Dell) I started having it depending on where it's plugged. Another thing to make sure is that in Cantabile, the Input box is checked off. Otherwise you might be adding noise from your interface (or internal card) even if nothing is plugged in. "Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints." My homemade instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 OK, so for this particular DI box, it has an XLR out port- which I guess I would need to convert to 1/4" so I can go directly into my amp?? And what about the stereo signal coming out of M-Audio. How is this affected by putting at DI box in the path? Regarding your comment about Cantabile, do you mean that the Input boxes should be unchecked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourniplus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes, Input unchecked. Most DI boxes have both a 1/4 inch out and an XLR out. As for going stereo, that is another question. You could actually use two DI's or a stereo DI. You can also experiment with the headphones out on your M-Audio. Or you could be happy with a mono signal. "Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints." My homemade instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I carry a Radial ProD2 DI (direct input) box around - it provides either stereo or two separate mono connections in one box. A good passive DI uses an audio transformer inside to provide the isolation and impedance change. Normally there is a 1/4" unbalanced audio input, a 1/4" unbalanced audio output, and an XLR balanced audio output. Pricing is determined largely by the quality of the components, especially the audio transformer. Also, better DI's provide built in pads so that the XLR output for FOH can be reduced to microphone level so that the board won't be overloaded. The "Ground Lift" feature allows the 1/4" input and output ground to be disconnected from the XLR ground safely. A lot of times especially in larger facilities, the AC power line has a considerable amount of voltage difference between different outlets in the earth ground connection. Reasons would take up a couple of pages of writing, but the ability to eliminate a ground loop can be the difference between good and unusable sound. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 "Annoying high pitched tone" LeesKeys - hope the DI with ground lift solves it for you. The "not that easy on the eye" 38 year old drummer who runs a function band I work with makes the same noise sometimes. Even when the PAs off. "I do all the work and book all the gigs and have generated thousands for this band and those two Inbetweeners that front it turn up and get all the female attention..." Don't know how to solve it. I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 I'm thinking that stereo in a live setting is not worth the difference in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well, I ordered a DI box last night (Rolls DB25b). I sure hope that fixes the problem. Last night at practice the tone was continuous, annoying, and got louder as the evening progressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesKeys Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Problem RESOLVED! The problem was indeed a ground loop issue. Once I plugged the DI box into the chain and pressed the Ground Lift button, the tone immediately went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 EVERY keyboard player who might ever plug into a PA should have a DI in his kit bag. EVERY one. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourniplus Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Right on! Noisy gear is for guitar players. "Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints." My homemade instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconoclast Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'm glad you fixed your problem. I was certain it was your M-Audio Fast track as I've had a similar problem with mine when it is powered with the AC adapter. My AC adapter is getting a little iffy and if it cuts in and out it sends an incredible digital screetch to my keyboard amp as the Fast Track tries to switch in between USB and AC power source. I've found the perfect angle to fix the AC cord and I use several tricks to hold it in place. I realize this wasn't your problem but forewarned is forearmed. I also use a couple of ground lifts for my keys. In some venue's they're fine, but sometimes they're incredibly noisy. You want me to start this song too slow or too fast? Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.