Kawai VPC

[Dana.]

Weight.... 65lbs!!!

Oof.

[CEB]

Cool! That is lighter than the MP-10 or the old MP-8.

 

Too bad about the lack of software bundle. The pre release ad said ready to play out of the box. I expected it would be ready to play out of the box. Not ready to play out of the box as long as you buy two or three other boxes. LOL.

 

But I think that is about a 20 lb weight reduction. If people want to play a good grand action they can't be a bunch of weight weenies. Pianos are heavy.

[CEB]

James, I want that F-30 triple pedal. Can I use it with the MP-5 or MP-8II plug one of those plugs into the footswitch jack and assign it to Sostentuto and have it work?

 

Thanks

 

http://cdn2.kraftmusic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/a/kawai_f30.jpg

[Phil Aiken]

I'm not in the market right now - but I think this looks great.

[Throbert]

James, how much of that 65 pounds is in the keybed?

[Kawai James]

Good morning chaps,

 

Thanks for your posts. It's been interesting waking up to read the community's reaction so far.

 

Okay, please let me answer some of the queries/comments...

 

Weight.... 65lbs!!!

Oof.

 

Yes, it turns out that real wooden keys are heavy...

CEB is right though:

 

MP8: 70.5 lbs (32 kg)

MP8II: 77 lbs (35 kg)

MP10: 70.1 lbs (31.8 kg)

VPC1: 65 lbs (29.5 kg)

 

Okay, so it's still not 'cycle to band practise with the gigbag on your shoulders' weight, but certainly lighter than Kawai's previous wooden-key action boards.

 

Too bad about the lack of software bundle. The pre release ad said ready to play out of the box. I expected it would be ready to play out of the box. Not ready to play out of the box as long as you buy two or three other boxes. LOL.

 

The 'plays out of the box' line refers to the fact that the VPC1 ships with developer approved touch curves for four popular virtual piano packages (the touch curves are stored in the VPC1's internal memory). So you essentially connect the VPC1 to your computer, select the corresponding touch curve (just once, as it remembers your selection) and start playing.

 

The VPC1's superb keyboard action is undoubtedly the main feature of this controller, however the inclusion of specially prepared and approved touch curves is also an essential component - they're the icing on the cake that ensure a fantastic 'connection' between keyboard and sound.

 

The VPC1 does not include the actual piano software itself, that's true. However, bear in mind that many virtual piano players already own one or more of these packages, so it wouldn't make sense for these users to pay extra for something they already own.

 

Regarding your F-30 pedal query, I have raised this point with my colleagues in R&D (and sales/distribution), so will keep you informed of their response. I do have some knowledge about pedal compatibility, but want to double-check before providing this information.

 

James, how much of that 65 pounds is in the keybed?

 

It's obviously a significant proportion... again, I've asked the chaps in R&D to confirm the exact amount. Please note that they may decide not to disclose this information, for one reason or another.

 

Cheers,

James

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[AnotherScott]

The VPC1 does not include the actual piano software itself, that's true. However, bear in mind that many virtual piano players already own one or more of these packages, so it wouldn't make sense for these users to pay extra for something they already own.

I had hoped that, based on the guaranteed sales of every VPC purchaser combined with the fact that few of those customers would ever normally buy all four products, that the four companies may have been willing to work out a low cost volume license for VPC sales, similar to how numerous software bundles have been put together over the years. The maker of a $300 piece of software may be willing to provide it to a vendor at a discount of 90% or more if it's part of a volume bundle that would (a) guarantee them x units of sales for a significant assured cash infusion, and (b) very largely be sales they would never otherwise get anyway. So it is very reasonably possible that a controller manufacturer could include all four products while raising the price of the unit by less than the cost of just one of them. I was hoping that would happen here. Oh well!

[Kawai James]

@Nigeth, following up on our discussion the other day about the VPC1's curved top, here's a shot showing the surface from a different angle.

 

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8321/vpc1image04musicrestsma.png

 

Cheers,

James

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[Kawai James]

I had hoped that, based on the guaranteed sales of every VPC purchaser combined with the fact that few of those customers would ever normally buy all four products, that the four companies may have been willing to work out a low cost volume license for VPC sales, similar to how numerous software bundles have been put together over the years. The maker of a $300 piece of software may be willing to provide it to a vendor at a discount of 90% or more if it's part of a volume bundle that would (a) guarantee them x units of sales for a significant assured cash infusion, and (b) very largely be sales they would never otherwise get anyway. So it is very reasonably possible that a controller manufacturer could include all four products while raising the price of the unit by less than the cost of just one of them. I was hoping that would happen here. Oh well!

 

It's a nice idea, certainly, but would perhaps be a little too complicated in reality. And again, we would effectively be charging virtual piano players - many of whom already own one or more of these packages - for software that they already own.

 

Cheers,

James

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[Dana.]

My comment about the weight was in response to all the people who were hoping this was a gigging solution that would be a lot easier on their back. A five to eight pound difference is negligible. Personally, I don't gig, so I'm looking forward to playing it.

 

And just to confirm, this is a new action, yes? The next gen version of what's in the MP10?

[AnotherScott]

@Nigeth, following up on our discussion the other day about the VPC1's curved top, here's a shot showing the surface from a different angle.

Looks good and workable. Certainly a whole lot better than an SV-1!

 

And again, we would effectively be charging virtual piano players - many of whom already own one or more of these packages - for software that they already own.

It could be workable either way... i.e. sell the controller by itself, and then have a $199 pack that includes all 4 pianos, but there would have to be a way to be sure that the pack only worked while the computer was attached to a VPC. Even people who already owned one of the pieces of software might be tempted by the bargain price to get the other three.

[Kawai James]

D-Bon, it's heavy, sure, but there are folks out there that gig with the MP10 - I guess if you like the feel of a board, you're prepared to take the weight.

 

And just to confirm, this is a new action, yes? The next gen version of what's in the MP10?

 

Yes, it's an updated version of the MP10 action, with triple-sensor key detection and an improved key frame construction.

 

Cheers,

James

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[Kawai James]

It could be workable either way... i.e. sell the controller by itself, and then have a $199 pack that includes all 4 pianos, but there would have to be a way to be sure that the pack only worked while the computer was attached to a VPC. Even people who already owned one of the pieces of software might be tempted by the bargain price to get the other three.

 

That's quite a good idea. But again, it adds to the complications. As I believe you suggested in a different forum, it's best to leave the software side of things to the developers, and allow Kawai R&D to focus on the hardware (namely, the keyboard action).

 

Cheers,

James

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[zephonic]

I played it today. Feels good, works well with Ivory. Easy to do pianissimo on it. It is ff-ing sexy, but $1800? I don't know...

 

[ADino]

Its 65lbs, but depending on the action, this looks to be a great alternative to buying a wooden model dp for home/home studio use. I use some of the aforementioned plugs, so a board like this may be the AP replacement Im seeking. Then again, I do have friends that dont mind carrying 65, or if the action justified, would do it for that alone.

[kanker.]

It's 12 lbs lighter than my MP8II, which is indeed significant. I wonder if Kawai would take a straight up trade?

[Dave Ferris]

Played it in the Kawai room. It was nice for sure, reminded me of an MP10 with a tad more refinement in the action.

 

However like Busch mentioned , I was definitely hearing/feeling that latency thing with Ivory. I'm not used to it at all since I mainly play DPs. So it was immediately noticeable, I looked over at Bill and said...wow what's up with that ?! I couldn't live with that slight delay at all...maybe there's an adjustment.

 

Sure is nice looking, solid build and does feel good. Like most I concur this seems more of a home piece--unless you're a young, studly guy like Kanker..

 

If you get a chance check out the new Kawai CS10 Hybrid. Both Busch and I liked that.

[burningbusch]

I'm thinking the latency might be related to the velocity curve software from Kawai that sits between the controller and the soft piano. At the Ilio booth they had the VPC connected to Ivory II on a Mac. The velocity software was also running. I felt sizable latency right away. I didn't check the settings. At the Kawai booth it was Ivory II on a PC and while the latency seemed better it was still there. I'd be surprised if you couldn't use the controller without the velocity curve software running. It would be interesting if Kawai can clarify this and if, in there opinion, the software introduces latency into the equation.

 

In comparison, later that day I played the wonderful True Keys pianos from VI Labs. This was using an older Akai 88 controller and it was very, very tight. The buffer was at 128 samples, on a Mac with a small MOTU interface.

 

Also, judging from the finish used it just strikes me that the MP10 is more of the gigging board while the VPC makes more sense at home.

 

I'm not slamming this product at all. It looks to be a great controller. Again, it would just be nice to just get clarification from Kawai.

 

And Dave, thanks for the 3 1/2 piano lesson. This guy is just a monster. It was great hearing him on the many APs/DPs he auditioned. Decades of hard work and perseverance are evident after five seconds of him touching the keys--an inspirational player.

 

Busch.

[kanker.]

young, studly guy like Kanker..

Guilty as charged.

[Mark Schmieder]

Kraft Music have it listed at $1850 and expected in late February, along with a thorough description and complete specs.

 

Well, "sort of" complete -- does anyone yet know if the included triple pedal (which has a single jack) transmits continuous data, tri-state, or simple momentary on/off? I doubt it's the latter as a combined jack would almost HAVE to be TRS vs. TS.

 

It has also been clarified that the action is not quite that of the MP10 but is derived from it, and that it isn't a way of getting rid of old overstock to make way for their brand-new just-announced action on their higher-end products.

 

The partnership aspect has been specified as being in the editing department as well as preset velocity curves for Galaxy, Pianoteq, and Ivory, alongside generic "light", "normal", and "heavy" weighted responses.

[Kawai James]

Hi Dave,

 

Played it in the Kawai room. It was nice for sure, reminded me of an MP10 with a tad more refinement in the action.

 

Yes, that's a pretty good description - the feeling of the MP10, with the additional responsiveness from the third sensor.

 

However like Busch mentioned , I was definitely hearing/feeling that latency thing with Ivory. I'm not used to it at all since I mainly play DPs. So it was immediately noticeable, I looked over at Bill and said...wow what's up with that ?! I couldn't live with that slight delay at all...maybe there's an adjustment.

 

After reading your post about latency on the PianoWorld form, I emailed my colleague at Kawai America who is currently overseeing the VPC1. His response was one of surprise, pointed out that [up until my email] everyone who had played the VPC1 (controlling Ivory II) commented on how 'fast' (i.e. low latency) it felt - this included pro players, journalists, tech-oriented dealers, and the Synthogy guys (developers of Ivory).

 

So it's a little puzzling. I wonder if perhaps someone had been fiddling with the setup when it was left unattended? But even then, I'm not sure how this would affect latency. If you have the opportunity to return to the Kawai booth, perhaps you can try to speak with Alan about the latency feeling you experienced?

 

Sure is nice looking, solid build and does feel good.

 

Any thoughts about the lack of pitchbend/modulation wheel Dave?

 

Like most I concur this seems more of a home piece--unless you're a young, studly guy like Kanker..

 

Yes, I'm hoping to get one for myself to control my Electro. Currently I'm using an MP8II for this purpose, but the VPC1 would surely give my setup a much classier look.

 

If you get a chance check out the new Kawai CS10 Hybrid. Both Busch and I liked that.

 

That was plan B, however I can't really justify the size in my tiny apartment.

 

Cheers,

James

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[Kawai James]

Hi Busch,

 

I'm thinking the latency might be related to the velocity curve software from Kawai that sits between the controller and the soft piano.

 

Just to clarify, the VPC Editor software is only used for adjusting/creating touch curves (and additional MIDI settings) which are stored in the VPC1's internal memories. The editor does not need to be running at the same time as the virtual piano software - I expect it was just for demonstration at the booth.

 

At the Ilio booth they had the VPC connected to Ivory II on a Mac. The velocity software was also running.

 

The VPC Editor is currently only available for Windows, so I'm not sure how/why you would have seen it running on a Mac. I'll have to double check this with Kawai America/Synthogy.

 

I felt sizable latency right away. I didn't check the settings. At the Kawai booth it was Ivory II on a PC and while the latency seemed better it was still there.

 

Again, my colleague on the booth remarked that he had received absolutely no complaints about latency, so it's unfortunate that you had this impression. He noted that the buffer setting was set a little higher than the fastest possible, just to guarantee that there were no pops/clicks when playing at extremes. It's perhaps also worth noting that the MIDI standard itself has a 'built in' latency that cannot be overcome, regardless of the controller used.

 

I'd be surprised if you couldn't use the controller without the velocity curve software running.

 

As noted above, the VPC Editor software is only used to create/adjust touch curves and other MIDI settings stored in the VPC1's internal memory. The editor is definitely not required to use the controller.

 

It would be interesting if Kawai can clarify this and if, in there opinion, the software introduces latency into the equation.

 

I hope I've clarified the purpose of the editor. I don't believe it should introduce additional latency. However, personally, I would ensure that the virtual piano software/DAW is always the active, top-most window/screen, as I believe this is how the Windows OS' prioritise running tasks.

 

I'm not slamming this product at all. It looks to be a great controller. Again, it would just be nice to just get clarification from Kawai.

 

I hope I've helped to clarify the situation. Feel free to let me know if you have any more queries.

 

Kind regards,

James

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[Kawai James]

Hi Mark,

 

does anyone yet know if the included triple pedal (which has a single jack) transmits continuous data, tri-state, or simple momentary on/off? I doubt it's the latter as a combined jack would almost HAVE to be TRS vs. TS.

 

The F-30 pedal unit connects to the VPC1 with two jacks.

 

http://cdn2.kraftmusic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/a/kawai_f30.jpg

 

The damper pedal is progressive (26 steps), the soft and sostenuto pedals are switches.

 

The VPC1 explanation on the Kraft Music site is taken from the product overview prepared for dealers/distributors. This document can be downloaded here, and includes a slightly different specifications table.

 

It has also been clarified that the action is not quite that of the MP10 but is derived from it, and that it isn't a way of getting rid of old overstock to make way for their brand-new just-announced action on their higher-end products.

 

That's correct. 'RM3 Grand II' is a new action, replacing 'RM3 Grand'. Please compare the two keyboard actions in the images below:

 

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/images/RM3_Grand.png

 

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/images/RM3_Grand_II.png

 

I hope this helps. Again, if you have any further queries, please let me know.

 

We're hoping to have the VPC website online next week, which should provide further information, with a Q&A section to address additional queries.

 

Cheers,

James

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[Dave Ferris]

However like Busch mentioned , I was definitely hearing/feeling that latency thing with Ivory. I'm not used to it at all since I mainly play DPs. So it was immediately noticeable, I looked over at Bill and said...wow what's up with that ?! I couldn't live with that slight delay at all...maybe there's an adjustment.

 

After reading your post about latency on the PianoWorld form, I emailed my colleague at Kawai America who is currently overseeing the VPC1. His response was one of surprise, pointed out that [up until my email] everyone who had played the VPC1 (controlling Ivory II) commented on how 'fast' (i.e. low latency) it felt - this included pro players, journalists, tech-oriented dealers, and the Synthogy guys (developers of Ivory).

 

So it's a little puzzling. I wonder if perhaps someone had been fiddling with the setup when it was left unattended? But even then, I'm not sure how this would affect latency. If you have the opportunity to return to the Kawai booth, perhaps you can try to speak with Alan about the latency feeling you experienced?

 

Sure is nice looking, solid build and does feel good.

 

Any thoughts about the lack of pitchbend/modulation wheel Dave?

 

Hey James. Man I don't know what to say on the latency thing except it was just that tad behind. Like Busch said, it was pretty obvious.

 

Unfortunately it's doubtful I'll be able to make it back tomorrow...I have a church gig in the morning and by the time I get home from that, it's too late to start out for Anaheim. I'm guessing that Pierre Julia will have one in his store as soon as anyone else to check out again.

 

Regarding the pitchwheel/modulation. You should know me well enough by now to know that something like that would have zero importance in my musical world.

 

I can definitely see where for the majority of keyboard type players, it would be a major area of concern but then like has been mentioned a few times, I think this is marketed towards people more like me--pianists.

 

On that level, it's great ! I'm used to doing sessions, playing Ivory on my friend's older Yamaha P200 keyboard so this was like...WOW ! I even turned to Busch, who's quite used to Ivory I'm sure, and said, man this piano sounds killin' ! He shook his head in acknowledgement. Maybe some people won't be bothered as much by what I heard/felt as a very slight delay.

[Kawai James]

Thanks for your clarification Dave.

 

Unfortunately it's doubtful I'll be able to make it back tomorrow...I have a church gig in the morning and by the time I get home from that, it's too late to start out for Anaheim.

 

Ah, okay, not to worry.

 

I'm guessing that Pierre Julia will have one in his store as soon as anyone else to check out again.

 

Yes, I hope so. I'm not sure about distribution/availability as this is handled by my colleagues in the US. The VPC1 is perhaps a little difficult for some traditional Kawai piano dealers to demonstrate, as it obviously requires a reasonably high specification computer, the piano software, and a degree of technical knowledge. I expect it's more suited to the larger musical instrument chain stores such as Sam Ash and Musician's Friend etc. - some of which have areas dedicated to MIDI/virtual instruments.

 

Just out of interest, do you happen to know the specs of the Ivory computer you use for playing sessions?

 

Cheers,

James

x

[Dave Ferris]

Boy, again computers...above my pay grade..

 

I can ask my friend. I know it's an older Mac Pro but he's always upgrading both it and Pro Tools HD. I can certainly ask.

 

 

I'm guessing that Pierre Julia will have one in his store as soon as anyone else to check out again.

 

Yes, I hope so. I'm not sure about distribution/availability as this is handled by my colleagues in the US. The VPC1 is perhaps a little difficult for some traditional Kawai piano dealers to demonstrate, as it obviously requires a reasonably high specification computer, the piano software, and a degree of technical knowledge. I expect it's more suited to the larger musical instrument chain stores such as Sam Ash and Musician's Friend etc. - some of which have areas dedicated to MIDI/virtual instruments.

James

x

 

Pierre's not your typical *acoustic piano dealer* type guy. He owns both the Kronos 88 and an older mint Oasys 88. He has them both side by side in his office. I would actually trust him more then the knuckleheads at SA & GC to get it *right* on setup to tell you the truth. He's way into the technology and quite possibly stays up on what Kawai is doing (both acoustic and digital) more then any other dealer in the US ....that is when he's not selling Faziolis or renting his personal 278 out to Herbie for a gig...

[Kawai James]

Pierre's not your typical *acoustic piano dealer* type guy.

 

Yes, he's clearly a very switched-on type of piano dealer when it comes to the latest technology...apologies for giving you the opposite impression.

 

I was referring more to the purely acoustic piano dealers - some of whom do not stock any digitals, so a controller that doesn't produce any sound is surely an even harder sell.

 

Cheers,

James

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[Bobadohshe]

Just a note to say that the curved isn't really that curved at all. Anything requiring a 'flat' surface would easily sit on it I'd speculate. The curvature is really quite slight.

[Mark Schmieder]

James, thanks for clearing up some of the imprecision in the early e-store write-ups of this keyboard -- especially the tri-pedals.

 

Hopefully I'll be down in L.A. a bit later this year and can visit Sam Ash, who to my knowledge are the only store in California that carries Kawai (at least, I've never seen a Kawai in the SF Bay Area).

[Kawai James]

Hopefully I'll be down in L.A. a bit later this year and can visit Sam Ash, who to my knowledge are the only store in California that carries Kawai (at least, I've never seen a Kawai in the SF Bay Area).

 

I believe there is a desire to get the VPC1 into more stores, but we'll see. I would also strongly recommend dropping Kawai America a line to check about availability in SF and LA (e.g. Pierre's, as mentioned above).

 

Cheers,

James

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