Jazz+ Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Barry Harris calls it #9 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Don't you need to know the chord in context? I mean if you're playing in C major, you'll have a different feel about an added 6th (even number) or added 9th ( meaning a secunde in the main scale) compared to when you're playing for instance a dorian scale or you're in some scale of Cminor playing an embellishment chord while in the 5th mode (I mean actually playing the dominant 7 resolving back to C). Of course the "10th" suggests another function than the 9th, which appears to have some strange popularity nowadays, that I cannot explain from proper harmonic theory, either equally tempered-oriented, or classical with pure scales. I'm happy to consider playing a 10th in the main scale of a minor kind a form of a "Hendrix chord" and in other cases the same holds for a minor tenth added to a major chord: in both cases the function isn't a none, but a variation of the terts, in contrast with the terts in the chord, to create tension which comments about the function of the single and double lowered 7th connected with the tritonus in the main harmonic theory of solving dominants fives, but in a funky way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Don't you need to know the chord in context? I mean if you're playing in C major, you'll have a different feel about an added 6th (even number) or added 9th ( meaning a secunde in the main scale) compared to when you're playing for instance a dorian scale or you're in some scale of Cminor playing an embellishment chord while in the 5th mode (I mean actually playing the dominant 7 resolving back to C).Good point; that's generally true for any ambiguous chord naming cases (and even some that don't seem ambiguous). No doubt there are cases where due to lead voicing (or as mentioned below, when combined with a flat 9) where it's clearly a flatted 10 that's being played. But I think the question here is when this kind of chord is used in its normal context (or in the context of the song posted above). I'm happy to consider playing a 10th in the main scale of a minor kind a form of a "Hendrix chord" and in other cases the same holds for a minor tenth added to a major chord: in both cases the function isn't a none, but a variation of the terts, in contrast with the terts in the chord, to create tension which comments about the function of the single and double lowered 7th connected with the tritonus in the main harmonic theory of solving dominants fives, but in a funky way. You lost me here. First, the Hendrix chord is generally called a 7#9. Second, what's a "tert"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 terts, oh maybe thats a dutchism, primo, secunde, terts, quarter, kwint, ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 flat 10. Egads. I could never think of it that way as the 10th = the 3rd and the 3rd and 7th are the rock and foundation of the chord's tonal quality. Flat 10th = a minor chord. I don't mind having two altered 9ths as they're both extensions. And yet I understand we're talking about semantics here. I appreciate being exposed to the European convention so when I run into it I won't get all blustery and foolish. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 terts, oh maybe thats a dutchism, primo, secunde, terts, quarter, kwint, ... ah! thirds. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I could never think of it that way as the 10th = the 3rd and the 3rd and 7th are the rock and foundation of the chord's tonal quality. Flat 10th = a minor chord. I don't mind having two altered 9ths as they're both extensions. Good point. However, that's also a point that works the opposite way. After all, a 7#9 chord often serves as a "major/minor" chord, playing both at the same time but without the harshness of halftone dissonance. It's not unusual to use it in blues where the underlying harmony is mainly dominant, but the melody is minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephonic Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 flat 10. Egads. I could never think of it that way as the 10th = the 3rd and the 3rd and 7th are the rock and foundation of the chord's tonal quality. Flat 10th = a minor chord. No, you misunderstood. The -10 in the symbol always signifies the presence of a major third in the root triad, and a flattened third (or rather, tenth) as an extension. So the axiom is, where there is a tenth, there is a major third. Just like you can't have a major or minor sus4, you can't have a minor -10. And it just occurred to me, you can't have a minor #9 either. Anyway, it matters not, as this view seems to be on the way out, even in The Netherlands. gear list.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTeechur Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 The Tertians are coming! The Tertians are coming! If one knows Tertian Theory (all chords are build in thirds, inversions notwithstanding), then the answer becomes obvious: #9 Chords have Roots, 3rds, 5ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. It would take about a year of theory to fully explain why, but it's true. I didn't make it up and I don't care if some book has a made-up chord in it. It's the truth. Other ways of writing chords exist, we can argue about what is "best" or "correct" all day, but the bottom line is: if you can understand it the way you write it, it's all good. Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine. HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 No, you misunderstood. The -10 in the symbol always signifies the presence of a major third in the root triad, and a flattened third (or rather, tenth) as an extension. No I didn't, I understand the concept. I'm just talking about why it's a mind F for me. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 The Music Theory head of my school recently said that slashes through numbers is classical notation for Ma7. Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 The Music Theory head of my school recently said that slashes through numbers is classical notation for Ma7. That's hilarious. Slashes through sevens and zeros go back centuries. I think it has German origins having nothing to do with music. I've been writing numbers like that since I was a kid. It annoyed many of my American teachers and it affected my grades, so I wouldn't recommend telling teachers anything they don't want to hear. I am enjoying the discussion quite a bit. I'm learning a little theory and getting some different perspectives on how different folks speak the same language. According to Richard Tee in that master class video, there are no chords in classical music. Before that was posted, kanker simply stated that "there are no chords" in that thread about inversions. It's probably more like there are too many chords to be bothered trying to think about it like that sometimes. In some cases it's better to write it explicitly in notation or not write it at all. The logic behind not having two kinds of 9 in the same chord makes perfect sense to me, but I don't think I have any of that in my vocabulary yet anyway. --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Before that was posted, kanker simply stated that "there are no chords" in that thread about inversions. No, I said it in that thread. He just agreed. http://blue-funk.com/NonBandPictures/smileys/tongue.gif "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Thanks for all answers!!!! I really like this forum a lot. Here is the score of the song I meant and you can easy find the chord we have discussed. NS2 88, Yamaha Cp300, Moog Little Phatty, Hammond Sk2, Roland Fantom X6, Ventilator, Nord C2D, Leslie 3300, Leslie 122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Interesting example, Octopus. Based on harmonic function it appears that the '-9' or '-10' in the example refers to extensions over a dominant 7th chord. Normally, If I saw C-9 I'd think Cmin9 but in this case it's clear the intention is a C dominant 7th with a flatted (-) ninth. The same seems to be true of the D7-10 and the G7-10 in this piece. On this side of the ocean we'd refer to those as C7b9, D7#9, and G7#9. I think both names are accurate. It's just a matter of which you're used to. Thanks for sharing this, Octopus. Now I'll be less confused if I ever see a -10 on a chart! Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 In jazz terms the embellishment chords scream "Foxy Lady" and altered chords to me, where the 7th isn't that essential, and the function is more a lowered third. I loved Vreeswijks music (he's originally dutch) as a kid, nice rock and jazz influences, good lyrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Well, with that melody, I'm really stumped now. D7-10, or #9 as we had previously interpreted, with an Eb in the melody. The Bb over the G7-10/#9 makes obvious sense, but... A b9 in the melody, with a chord that is supposedly asking for a #9 and 3? Whoa. Anyone have a reasonable explanation? Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Majuscule, in jazz harmony the b9 and the #9 are pretty much interchangeable, Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Would you question a D in the melody when the harmony is a straight C major? The D is a natural component of any number of scales where you could derive C major harmony. Similarly, the b9 and the #9 both exist in natural parent scales that gives you dominant b9/#9 harmony, the melodic minor being one example, the whole half being another. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Well said, kanker! To get the b9/#9 over a C7 you can use either: Db melodic minor - (C-Db-Eb-Fb[E]-Gb-Ab-Bb-C) or C half-whole - C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb-C) Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 C half-whole - C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb-C) I'm not sure what a half-whole is but I look at that as a G/Bb/Db/E Diminished scale. If it's G- you're starting on the 4th degree, Bb-you're on the 2nd degree, etc etc. That's just the way I process that in my mind... But yes the b9 and #9 are existent for C7 on both scales...the melodic minor and this diminished. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've heard it called a Half-whole scale but I prefer Symmetric scale or Tetratonic scale. I prefer these because they are a more accurate description than Diminished scale...I honestly can't remember why but I trusted my teacher on this one. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I'm not sure what a half-whole is but I look at that as a G/Bb/Db/E Diminished scale. If it's G- you're starting on the 4th degree, Bb-you're on the 2nd degree, etc etc. The whole-half and half-whole name simply give definition and distinction to the two different flavors of diminished scales. Take a tonic, go up a whole step, up a half, up a whole, up a half, etc.... and you have a whole-half scale. Take the same tonic, go up a half, up a whole, up a half, up a whole, etc... and you have a half-whole. Two different flavors of scales with diminished properties, so they have separate nomenclature for the sake of discussion. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hmm. I suppose you're right. Also, that Db melodic minor. Also named C altered? That's how it was explained to me. Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I'm not sure what a half-whole is but I look at that as a G/Bb/Db/E Diminished scale. If it's G- you're starting on the 4th degree, Bb-you're on the 2nd degree, etc etc. The whole-half and half-whole name simply give definition and distinction to the two different flavors of diminished scales. Take a tonic, go up a whole step, up a half, up a whole, up a half, etc.... and you have a whole-half scale. Take the same tonic, go up a half, up a whole, up a half, up a whole, etc... and you have a half-whole. Two different flavors of scales with diminished properties, so they have separate nomenclature for the sake of discussion. Yeah I understand the whole-half concept. However I've spent such a huge part of my life studying the "diminished scale" and all chord structures, lines and things pertaining to it, that it can't be anything else but "diminished" to me. For me I try to break things down to their most basic structure...dim., melodic & harmonic minor , lydian, augmented and the modal things. In jazz that really encompasses a good 80% of the ballgame. If I get too hung up on, like you say, nomenclature, it really bogs my brain down when improvising. I still analyze all stuff, all the time, but basically I've come to a point where I look for melody when blowing. If any of it falls into any of the above categories..well then good. But regarding the harmonic nomenclatural aspect (wow that sounds like a new really far out scale) , it's definitely... [video:youtube] https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Believe me, I understand fully. No matter what the extensions "supposed" to be, I'd much rather read C7 and leave it up to me to figure out what C7 actually entails. C7 is a possibility. The key to grasping complexity is to find its underlying simplicity.... A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Hmm. I suppose you're right. Also, that Db melodic minor. Also named C altered? That's how it was explained to me. Exactly right! Also called the altered-dominant in some places. Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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