Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Augmented 9 vs minor 10th (flat 10th chords), G7#9 vs G-10


Octopus

Recommended Posts

Are these chords identical? Do they have different functions

 

Ex G7#9 vs G-10

 

I have never seen the flat 10th chord before, but yesterday it shows up in a song called (En visa om ett Rosenblad, Lyrics:Vreeswijk, Music: Riedel). The key is F minor.

 

Is the chord a common G7#9?

NS2 88, Yamaha Cp300, Moog Little Phatty, Hammond Sk2, Roland Fantom X6, Ventilator, Nord C2D, Leslie 3300, Leslie 122

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

My impression is that the #9 notation is a relatively new phenomenon. I never saw that until like maybe five years ago. In school it was always b10, and I do not remember seeing #9's in the Realbook, either.

 

But it has definitely replaced the b10 by now. I wouldn't know why, except maybe better legibility.

 

I do prefer the b10, as you can combine them in a chord with the b9. How awkward would a chord be with both a flat and sharp 9?

 

 

edit:

I just realized that 10 and 13 extensions imply the presence of a base triad underneath. But the way chords are played this is not always a given or even desirable, so perhaps the new notation makes more sense in that way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never seen a 10th of any kind in chord shorthand. A b10 is a new expression for me but I go way back with #9. We're good friends.

 

I think of 10ths as intervals not chords. Always major. Piano tuners user major thirds, tenths, and (always major) seventeenths to check octaves and double octaves.

 

--wmp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wiki:

 

"" The dominant 7 #9 chord appears impressionist classical music. An example can be heard in Claude Debussy's Feuilles Mortes, from his second book of Préludes (1913). There, the unresolved, dissonant ninth chords (at least a, "C7 #9" with a "split third" and "added minor ninth"[16]) help create, according to Richard Bass, an "utterly sad, desolate character," throughout the piece.

 

The chord was used in popular music as far back as the bebop era of the 1940s, notably on the Rachmaninoff-inspired introduction to Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker's arrangement of the popular standard "All the Things You Are." Instances of this chord appear with some regularity in blues and rhythm-and-blues of the 1950s and 1960s.

 

While this sonority has been previously used in jazz and related styles, one particular voicing of this chord is commonly nicknamed the "Hendrix Chord" among rock guitarists. This association is because it was a favorite of Jimi Hendrix, who did a great deal to popularize its use in mainstream rock music."

 

The chord was used by the Beatles in songs such as "The Word" and "Taxman". McCartney called this a "great ham-fisted jazz chord" that was taught to them by Jim Gretty who worked at Hessey's music shop in Whitechapel, central Liverpool. George Harrison uses it (as a Gb7 #9) as the penultimate chord of his solo on "Till There Was You".

 

The chord is favored by Pixies lead guitarist Joey Santiago, with D7#9 reminiscent of the opening to "A Hard Day's Night", opening and being called the "secret ingredient," to the song "Here Comes Your Man" and "brutally scraped" F7#9 featured on the chorus to "Tame" against the three chord rhythm guitar part's D, C, and F chords.

 

Pink Floyd used the chord A7#9 in the long instrumental intro of their 1975 suite "Shine On You Crazy Diamond".

 

Use as a primary or tonic chord in funk and disco music of the 1970s includes Heatwave's "Boogie Nights"

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Must be a Dutch (or continental European) thing, then... :idk

 

Im from Sweden and I have only seen this once (this time), maybe it is old School typing... or if the chord G7-10 has another function than G7#9 when doing the function anaslysis of the chords?????

 

The key is Fm and this is a flat key. Maybe Georg Riedel who has written this music like to type -10 in flat keys and +9 in sharp keys?

NS2 88, Yamaha Cp300, Moog Little Phatty, Hammond Sk2, Roland Fantom X6, Ventilator, Nord C2D, Leslie 3300, Leslie 122

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like b12 and b8 chords.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my thought. Chords are (generally, usually) built on thirds. That's what gives us 7, 9, 11, 13. #9 and b9 are easily thought of relative to the 9, as well as the other ones you often see as SLeB mentioned above.

 

I don't think there's anything technically wrong with saying b10, but it goes against the convention many of us are familiar with and makes us think more while we're playing. It's like notation written in a sharp key with an accidental that's a flat. You kind of have to stop and think about it.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I studied in the Netherlands and came across this often.

The logic behind it is purely in the terminology.

The idea is that you can't have a b9 and a #9 in a chord, because you can only alter the 9 in one direction. So the b9 stays flat nine, and the #9 sound is regarded as a flattened 10th.

It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my thought. Chords are (generally, usually) built on thirds.

 

Yes they are, all harmony is, the overtone series dictates this, hard to explain without showing you examples on a staff and/or at a piano. It took me 3 (very heady) classes from Dick Grove before I even started to understand how it works and how to apply it to everything. I've only been able to really 'get it' in my playing in the last 10 years or so.

 

In general, a chord/harmony is triads stacked on top of each other. You can voice them totally different and leave out notes, whatever, but they are still triads stacked.

 

If modern harmony is your criteria (as opposed to old rigid less flexible understandings of harmony)...b10 is WRONG :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, you guys had me questioning my own sanity, so I called up an old friend from my Conservatory days.

 

Mystery solved, and I thought you'd be interested in the story:

 

When Bebop first started happening in The Netherlands, its most prominent expert was mr. Frans Elsen, who studied Classical Piano at the Royal Conservatory in my hometown The Hague and he would eventually found the Netherlands' first-ever Jazz department in that particular school.

 

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_Elsen

 

Now, Frans Elsen was classically trained, very opiniated and unshakably rigid in his beliefs when he was convinced he was right.

 

He was good friends with Barry Harris, a first generation bebop pianist who would later become a frequent visitor and guest-teacher at the Royal Conservatory.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Harris

 

It would seem that Frans Elsen's ideas were firmly based on and strictly adhered to traditional classical theory, and he found a kindred spirit in Barry Harris. So when Mr. Elsen started the Jazz department, his ideas became the de facto standard for all that followed.

 

From Barry Harris' wiki:

 

Barry's approach to the teaching of jazz uses methods and techniques that pre-date the Berklee school and the Lydian Chromatic approach of George Russell. He relies upon the 6th chord and the 8-note, rather than the 7-note jazz scale, as a basis for melody and harmony. This is the material used by Bud Powell, Joseph Schillinger, George Gershwin, Glenn Miller, and even Frédéric Chopin. He emphasizes the concept of building a repertoire of one's own musical movements over common harmonic formulae.

 

 

And so it happened that the first and second generation jazz students in The Netherlands all adopted these ideas without question. The curriculum has since been updated to conform with modern standards, but I was a second-generation student and we never called the darn thing anything other than a -10!

 

Funny how these things happen...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plus, 9 is an odd number...

 

and odd numbers are much more interesting than even numbers...

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I studied in the Netherlands and came across this often.

The logic behind it is purely in the terminology.

The idea is that you can't have a b9 and a #9 in a chord, because you can only alter the 9 in one direction. So the b9 stays flat nine, and the #9 sound is regarded as a flattened 10th.

 

Exactly. My teacher was one of Frans Elsen's star students, and this was one of the first things he taught me. Thanks, Mo.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great, that's all I need if they start writing it that way over here. I get screwed up now as it is with the European kids at LA Music Academy writing the slash through the 7 or 9 on their Major seventh chords. We all keep telling them that's a no no, but they keep doing it.

 

It makes for that slight hesitation when sight reading their stuff. It's hard enough enough to make heads or tails of what they're writing to begin with... :laugh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get screwed up now as it is with the European kids at LA Music Academy writing the slash through the 7 or 9 on their Major seventh chords. We all keep telling them that's a no no, but they keep doing it.

 

Slash throug the 7 or 9?

 

Never seen this in sweden. Maybe a effect from when they write the function of an imperfect dominant? Examples in C Major: Bm (b5) The Root © is omitted. The incomplete dominant is built from the third note of the corresponding full dominantseptimachord. Maybe they mixed up?

NS2 88, Yamaha Cp300, Moog Little Phatty, Hammond Sk2, Roland Fantom X6, Ventilator, Nord C2D, Leslie 3300, Leslie 122

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My impression is that the #9 notation is a relatively new phenomenon. I never saw that until like maybe five years ago. In school it was always b10, and I do not remember seeing #9's in the Realbook, either.
New since when? I've seen sharp nine since the 70's (and using charts probably written long before that). I've never seen a flat 10. In my limited experience, the only time I ever see even numbers is for sus4, "sus2" (aka mu major), and 6. I don't remember ever seeing an even number over 6. No doubt its due to what Joe says: chords being built on third intervals.

 

Interesting to learn the history; thanks Zeph.

 

Octopus, regarding a slash through a seven, that's how a seven is *written*, by just about anyone other than English-speaking people. Since the Continental 1 has a big "hat", the slash differentiates the seven from the 1.

 

What does a slash through a number mean, other than that? Why would they slash their 9's? I haven't seen that notation, so either it's unnecessary, or it's more advanced than I've gone (maybe, "upper structure" stuff).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...