Playing rock keys in a tiny venue.

[BluMunk]

My "for fun" band plays a variety of rock covers in a lot of small venues. It's usually a challenge fitting the six of us into whatever postage-stamp sized stage there is, and I am never, ever happy with my volume.

 

We typically run vocals through a PA (no monitors), and everything else straight out of our amps. I sit my SM450 on the floor behind me somewhere so it serves both as my personal monitor and my sound out into the house. Sometimes I'll put it behind the drummer (who is behind me) so he can have some sort of monitor of something.

 

At any rate, in these small quiet(er) gigs, I can never seem to find the sweet spot between "so soft I can't even hear myself" and "too freaking loud."

 

When we play louder venues, most of my patches seem to be roughly at the right volume in relation to each other, but I just can't figure it out; maybe I really need a separate monitor placed really close for myself, as well as one for the house?

 

Any thoughts/suggestions?

[timwat]

Have you tried tilting or elevating the SM450? Pole mounting will usually give a much different presentation than sitting on the floor (greater throw, decoupled bass). If that's not feasible due to lack of space, try tilting it to fire at your head with some sort of wedge like this:

 

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417Yo4Vq8HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[BlackandWhite]

Yeah, I'd get your monitor off the stage/floor. When I use a similar set up, I pole-mount my monitor and place it approx.5 feet away and head-high.

[Delaware Dave]

Put yourself lightly in the house mix and turn your srm450 up just enough for a personal monitor. That should do the trick.

[richforman]

Delaware Dave stole my thunder and said basically what I was going to. I generally find that even when the bandleader says "this place is so small that we're just going through our amps, not through the p.a.," for keyboards it's better to indeed find a channel for the p.a., strictly at whatever volume is appropriate for the house and the overall mix, and use your stage amp as it's intended, for a monitor and for your bandmates to hear a bit of what you're doing. Trying to fill the house through your onstage amp just means that your stage volume will be too loud!!

[HammondDave]

Get rid of that SRM 450 and buy an EVSXA360... Will make a world of difference... Believe me, I played for years with both...

[eric]

In ear monitors

[Dana.]

In ear monitors

That was my first thought, but it might be overkill in a tiny venue? :idk

[HammondDave]

In ear monitors

That was my first thought, but it might be overkill in a tiny venue? :idk

 

That's even a better suggestion... Plus it protects your hearing...

[timwat]

I've tried being the only guy using IEMs with a bunch of guys using own-amps instead of PA.

 

That movie doesn't end well.

[David Loving]

IEMs are too complicated for a simple combo set up like Blumonk is talking about. I run an amp at my station and run a line through our PA, too. Plus, we try to keep the volume right, especially in a small venue.

[opdigits]

Delaware Dave stole my thunder and said basically what I was going to. I generally find that even when the bandleader says "this place is so small that we're just going through our amps, not through the p.a.," for keyboards it's better to indeed find a channel for the p.a., strictly at whatever volume is appropriate for the house and the overall mix, and use your stage amp as it's intended, for a monitor and for your bandmates to hear a bit of what you're doing. Trying to fill the house through your onstage amp just means that your stage volume will be too loud!!

+1

[Bill H.]

Even though it makes sense, there's usually political reasons why you don't want to go through the mains in small rooms. Once you're in you've set a precedent.

 

I'd set it on a chair or on an unextended tripod stand with the legs pulled mostly in (my usual practice). I try to get a direct line of sight between the speaker and room somehow. Otherwise the sound just gets trapped onstage even in small rooms.

[eric]

I've tried being the only guy using IEMs with a bunch of guys using own-amps instead of PA.

 

That movie doesn't end well.

 

Maybe it's time for him and others to influence their band mates to go with IEMs. My band has 75% IEM capability, but due to various reasons, usually 50% use them on gigs. Still works very well. I have not played a gig with a monitor in nearly two years.

[ITGITC]

I've tried being the only guy using IEMs with a bunch of guys using own-amps instead of PA.

 

That movie doesn't end well.

 

For small venues where you are running sound from stage, you need to hear what your audience is hearing to be sure the balance is correct and the overall volume is right.

 

You need your keyboard monitor close to your ears. And you'll need a PA monitor with vocals and other instruments in it for everyone who needs it.

 

Once you've got the monitor mix sounding good, you can begin raising the volume of the mains. I would start with only the vocals and keys in the main mix. You may not need drums, guitar, and bass in the mains as they will probably be loud enough. So much depends on the size & shape of the room.

 

For a small venue (pub), I find that getting the monitor mix sounding good first is 90% of getting the room sounding good without losing control of the overall volume.

 

Getting it just right is complex. Every room is different. YMMV. Yada Yada Happy New Year...

 

Tom

 

 

 

[Mr. Nightime]

In my band, only vocals and bass drum go through the PA. Everyone has a small mike stand mounted powered monitor for vocals and the instruments are run off the stage. Everyone can set the vocal monitor to the level they like.

 

I run a QSC K10 that I put on a tripod stand. Since I play seated, I angle it down toward my head. That was I can hear myself at the requisite louder level that I like, but stay blended with everyone else. I refuse to play by Braille

 

You should be able to do the same with the SRM 450.

[Reezekeys]

You should be able to do the same with the SRM 450.

The Mackie doesn't have that tilting stand mount like the QSC ("Tilt-Direct). How do you get the 450 to tilt down when it's mounted on a pole?

 

I general I think your answer is more on the money than the other suggestions here that's how I do it in a small club.

[DanL]

Another vote for the get it off the floor idea. I don't think what b&w said about getting it 5' away will always work, some small venues wouldn't have enough space for that.

 

I use a chopped down waitress stand for my K10, or just lay it down angled up at me on top of a 6 space rack. Either way, I can hear it, the band can hear it, and it's not too loud for any of us. I always run a line to the PA as well and if it's needed it gets turned up some. Even a little bit in the PA helps fill out the room without getting too loud.

[midinut]

I used a Mackie SR450 for several years that I borrowed from a DJ friend of mine. I remember when I used it on its side, sometimes it would shut down because it got too hot and I'd have to wait a few for it to come back on. Sme sort of thermal overload protection. On a pole I never had that problem. Using a Behringer B212a for several years but a still keep it on a pole. I agree it's hard to find the "sweet spot". I've tried it right by my head to about 10' back and still find myself riding my volume.

 

I agree about the IE situation. They're wonderful IF everyone on stage uses them. By yourself, not worth even pulling them out.

[Craig MacDonald]

Blumunk, lot's of good suggestions here..

 

I play in a lot of small venues with my 5 piece 11steps band and it's really a challenge getting the right sound, especially in some of our venues where we play in a front window (surrounded by glass on 3 sides).. We only have a 6 channel PA and 5 of us sing so we don't have the option to put anyone (except the kick drum) through the PA. We also play in one small club that has it's own PA (6 channel as well).. so we are almost always using our own amps/monitors to fill the room live off the stage. I always use 2 QSC K10's, because I like stereo organ/leslie and if there's room for one K10 I can always squeeze in two ;-) and they are always sitting on the floor about a foot behind my stool.

 

A couple of comments..

 

1. Often we find that just because it sounds crappy on stage, doesn't mean that it sounds crappy out there. The last gig we played in December we had quite a few musicians in the crowd, and they all said the sound was great (I mean some went on and on about how great the sound was), and yet from the minute we started playing I thought the sound on stage was awful.

 

2. You will get used to your stage sound... Quite often I find that I really don't like the first couple of songs, and I just get used to as we progress through the set and by the middle of the first set.. I'm quite used to it and I've adjusted.

 

3. If you're not hearing yourself think about your volume/EQ but also your technique..

 

As an organ player, I've learned (still learning actually) that in an ensemble situation your drawbar registration and when/where you play can make the world of difference. Generally speaking with my band I've found that (we play classic 60's-70's rock) I need to roll of the bass a lot and boost the high end to really sit properly in the mix, which is very different from when I'm sitting in my basement, playing by myself, rehearsing and/or building my patches and combinations. It's interesting that despite having some great acoustic piano patches in my Kronos, I always use the General Midi Bright Piano patch for all of the combinations I use live with the band. It just cuts better, and sits better in the mix with the band.

 

I don't think that when you're playing in small venues that there is one simply solution to having a great sound on stage and being loud enough to hear yourself without being overly loud. It starts with having good equipment.. (I'm not a fan of the mackie monitor for keyboards, it's too sterile, not warm at all).. then make sure that your sound (EQ/registration) is right to complement your band (find your sonic space), and then make sure that you're playing tastefully and finding your spots. If you do that, I think you'll have less of a problem with these small venues.

 

Just my 2 cents worth. hope this helps!!

[theGman]

I had this dilemma, and what I did when playing through our amps was move my K10 from being a monitor to a spot in front of my keys, up on an angled amp stand like the OnStage RS 7000. This gets it up about 30 inches or so, and angles it upwards.

 

Then, what to do for my own monitor? I bought a Mackie SRM150, (the size of a loaf of bread), put it on a mike stand (weighted base for smaller footprint), and adjust it at my side up at roughly shoulder height. This way, I can tailor the volume however I want independently of the K10.

 

I can't see a down side to this for me anyway.

 

 

 

[frogmonkey]

Haha, I know those tiny venues!

 

If it were me I would insist on putting keys in the PA and I would use the Mackie for my personal monitor (and so the band can hear me).

 

Seriously, if the PA is there, I will always put keys in it!

Is there some reason you don't go to the PA?

[theGman]

Our sound man just wants vocals in the PA at small venues. My K10 is plenty of power, so it's no big deal to me. Our sound man has enough troubles with the vocals only, so I don't want to overwhelm him. ha ha ha, but sadly true.

[Michael Wright]

Our sound man has enough troubles with the vocals only, so I don't want to overwhelm him. ha ha ha, but sadly true.

waddja do? I agree with putting the keys in the pa and bringing your monitor up for yourself. I find usually pushing the sound from the stage, does not work well.

[clpete]

 

Seriously, if the PA is there, I will always put keys in it!

Is there some reason you don't go to the PA?

 

I always go in the PA if possible. Keys dont cut like the guitars or drums. I played a small club last weekend and according to a musician my level was good except during solos and then I was too low. I was the only instrument in the FOH.

 

I have got resistance from other players, but I just say if the keys are too loud we can cut the gain. This is never the case as I always end up with keys sent to the mainsWell, except last night. Right before we started the 1st set the drummer moved a stand and bumped the switch on one the power amps. For half the set we had only the subs out front.

 

 

[J. Dan]

I am the only one using IEM's in my current band and it works fine - but everything has to e in the mix, including drums. It wouldn't work for you unless everything goes to the mixer (even if it's all the way down in the mains). Just finished setting up for tonight, and we only got 2 mixes for 5 of us. So I had the bass player and drummer agree on a mix, and I can add more keys in my ears to taste without affecting them. Even if you just used an overhead for all the drums, it could work.

[theGman]

Along with my Mackie personal monitor mentioned eariler, I forgot to mention that our sound man has purchased those $150 small (another loaf of bread size) monitors for our individual instruments.

 

Since we just use the FOH (on small venues) only for vocals, between this little personal vocal monitor with volume control on it, along with the guitar amps a-blasting, and the drummer a-drumming...little Christmas humor, sorry...I can pretty much adjust everything I need easily.

 

I agree that the keys don't have enough punch without being in FOH, so I just turn the volume up a few clicks after the sound check to compensate, and all works well until the last set when the guitars as usual crank their amps up, so I go up a few more.

[Fusker]

I run everyone through the scaled down PA in this scenario.

[theGman]

As Blu Monk said about finding the sweet spot, that is the reason I realized that I couldn't use one amp behind me for everything.

 

By moving my amp out front, and adding the little one by my side, that made all the difference in the world.

[henrysb3]

Sorry for the blasphemy, but here's what happened when I couldn't use my regular KB amp. I'd been trying out a clone of a Tweed Deluxe on guitar. I stuck the amp in front of me, and the open back speaker worked well as a monitor, AND the amp sounded surprisingly good for the keys. I think this amp has around twelve watts through a couple of 6V6's. As far as expense, it wouldn't be what I'd use on a regular basis, but it worked well in a pinch. Haven't played any gigs for quite a while, as our drummer lost his life to cancer just a year ago this week.