First synth - MOX6 or something else?

[hatman]

Please help me choose my first synth. I have had several Yamaha digital pianos, currently own a YDP-V240, but have never used a synth. I'm an experienced player and composer, classical style. I'd like to get involved in modern music, using synth sounds and compose using rhythms and several layers of sound.

 

Although my current piano has USB connections, I've never used them, and never used music software on my computer. But I'd like to try all of these things.

 

I have respect for Yamaha products and quality, and have been looking at the MOX6 and MOX8. Given my experience in music composition, will these machines be able to provide everything I need to compose?

 

Here in South Korea (I'm English) the MOX6 is available for about $1400, and the MOX8 is currently discounted to $1800. In a similar price band I can consider Korg M50, Roland Gi or G.

 

Thanks for your help.

[kanker.]

If you're posting on the internet, you probably have a computer, or at least a pretty decent smartphone. I'd explore the synthesizers you can find for free or very cheap for your computer or your phone first. You should learn a bit about synthesizers - how to use them, their capabilities - so that when you're ready to buy a keyboard synthesizer, you know more about what you want.

 

What's your internet browsing rig?

[hatman]

PC: Intel i5, 8gb RAM, SSD, 2Tb HDD, Win8, 21 inch monitor. PC does not have sound card - uses motherboard.

 

As I said above - I am an accomplished piano player and composer - I can write for full orchestra. Just never ventured beyond classical. I doubt that composing just using a computer will suit me - I need to have a keyboard to play and invent.

[kanker.]

You can hook a keyboard up to your computer via MIDI as a means to explore synthesis. I'm a Mac guy, I have a book in print about programming all the synthesizers in the Apple program Logic (15 or so synths in all), so i know a thing or two about what I speak. Before you sink serious bread into a single hardware piece, learn about what you can accomplish via your computer - from very simple single oscillator synths to instruments whose depth can intimidate synthesis gurus, all manner of things are available in the virtual realm. Hopefully some more PC aware folks will jump in this thread to give you some more ideas of free and cheap synths you can use to begin to explore synthesis. It's a whole lot better than sinking a ton of bread into something that may or may not fit the bill....

[midinut]

What these guys are suggesting is that you use your existing DP's or the YDP-V240 you mentioned. Hook one up to your PC with a USB cable and experiment with the free synths that are available. That will get you closer to understanding what it is YOU will need to accomplish your goals. You will be able to compose and invent whatever you like with what you already have. Then, you'll be better equipped to make the right decision about which keyboard to buy. The MOX6/8 are good choices, but so is Korg Kronos, or a used M3, or a Kurzweil PC3, or a Roland. There are too many possibilities and YOU need to try them in a store and choose the one that inspires you. In the meantime, my fine colleagues are just suggesting you take your time and get to know what all this synthesizer business is all about. Just trying to help.

[Rockhouse]

See if any local dealers are blowing out a Korg M3. It's discontinued, or very near to that. My local shop has one for $1539. Actually, they have 2 in stock. IMHO, the Korg sounds better and has better avenues of expression such as the XY touch screen as well as 8 assignable faders and a ribbon controller.

[CEB]

One of my favorite synths is a free vst (Sonigen Modular) but you may not want to start with that one. They literally come in all level of complexity. Whether you eventually get a hardware synth or not I expect you will find that software synth will become a useful tool.

[Stokely]

I have two conflicting views on this. On one hand, I use software at home and it just kills for flexibility and convenience compared to the old days (no midi and audio cables, just usb, no patch saving, no saving of mix settings etc).

 

Those old days make me appreciate software that much more But they are gone, either workstation or software beats all those connections and setting midi channels and making sure you set each synth up, especially multitimbral ones...ugh.

 

On the other hand, I think there's something to the "immediacy" of having a hardware board. Granted I haven't sequenced much on one...when I got an older Virus for live playing I surprised myself with how much I grabbed knobs and tweaked the thing as I played, it is very different from pulling down menus on a screen.

 

There is nothing more frustrating that a computer that refuses to see your audio interface (for example) for no apparent reason....or driver issues. If you have a bit of patience with computer tweaking then you'd be fine I'm sure...or you may have no issues at all. I just know I've had a fair share on both mac and pc through the years with various gear.

 

But on the whole, I do vote software. Having synthesizers on a pulldown menu is one of the wonders of the modern world.

[Synthoid]

See if any local dealers are blowing out a Korg M3. It's discontinued, or very near to that. My local shop has one for $1539. Actually, they have 2 in stock. IMHO, the Korg sounds better and has better avenues of expression such as the XY touch screen as well as 8 assignable faders and a ribbon controller.

 

+1

[David Emm]

 

Since you already have a keyboard that you like, do you really NEED a synthesizer for any sort of live playing or is it a matter of wanting to broaden your sound palette?

If the former, I would respectfully suggest starting with a Korg. Its JUST my opinion, but despite a very rich sound, Yamaha has the fussiest GUIs of the lot. Rolands are much more friendly, but still rather head-scratching in their top-end synths and as a composer, you are too far along to settle for a starter synth like Roland's nice little SH-201. Seek out a Korg Krome for a try, but if at all possible, get an M3. The keyboard on it is superior (Korg devised it all in-house this time) and the synth itself very potent. I gravitated towards Korg because their GUIs feel the least fiddly to me. Most synths sound quite good these days and the means to import your own samples hands you a wide-open field of options, so the GUI is now an even greater consideration. My go-to-function speed on Korgs is comfortably high and musically fluid.

If you are more keen on enhancing your library, start from the easiest and least expensive point. Do you already have a DAW? If not, Reaper (http://www.reaper.fm/) is a great way to get a starter feel for what its about and a private-use license is a mere $60. The basics are easily accessed and it has an active support community. You can do basic recording right away and pick up the more esoteric things as you go.

There are bigger, better options, but $149 will get you Garritan Instant Orchestra, which is much respected, especially for students and scratch-pad uses. www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=169&Itemid=171m/ A serious, gesture-rich pro library will exceed $1000 and then some, but MOTU and IK Multimedia both offer quality orchestral plug-ins for much less.

You will also need a USB audio interface. Very simple 1-I/O models can be had. I use a Lexicon model w/MIDI and a couple of audio In jacks that ran me $120. The general tone seems to be that USB is fine for the basics, but larger orchestral or film-level projects call for more juice. Thunderbolt is the new looming standard where Firewire has ruled for a while. Again, start small and learn the landscape first. USB will be fine for that.

Therefore, you can drop approximately $400 to go the in-the-box route to start and have greater breadth of choice or $1000+/- for a workstation-quality synth that will probably still function years after the computer rig has been upgraded out of usability. That's the divide we all live with; I chose to cover both options.

The base ROM of a Krome won't cover every desire on Earth, but there is a classical expander for it already, IIRC, as well as some user sample RAM that can help overcome many limitations. Synths also tend to come with software editors now, so you can readily establish your own palette.

Good Lord, what a lot of wind! Sorry, I've sold synths twice as an in-store guy and I love to qualify a newbie. I went through a lot of growing pains to reach this point and I like to help others avoid many of them. Besides, the tools are hella advanced now, so its much easier to just START. The fact that you're even asking means you have good considered goals. The rest is just nuts and bolts. Good luck!

 

Here's a piece I wrote that's mostly Mark of the Unicorn's Symphonic Instrument and a Korg TR61, recorded and effected within Logic. MOTU recorded everything very dry, but both S.I. and Logic sport convolution reverbs, so the results can be quite respectable.

 

http://soundcloud.com/david-emm-1/ceruleanblues

 

 

[hatman]

Well I really appreciate all the replies, especially the long and detailed ones (thanks, David Emm).

 

I'm a conventional classical musician (trained at the Royal Academy of Music, London). I've followed the conventional methods of music composition - although I invent at my piano, I'm having to 'hear' the various instruments in my head. And the finished piece too, whether that's for just a small group or a full orchestra. Of course that's the procedure used by everyone from Beethoven through to Prokofiev. Of course I write all my compositions down on music score paper.

 

I imagined that by buying a keyboard synth I'd be able to do the same, except I'd have a huge bank of sounds to hear in real time and a recording facility built-in so that I can create layers and play them back immediately. That's tremendously appealing. In fact last night I watched a YouTube demo of the Roland Juno-Gi which seems to provide all of those things I'd imagined.

 

But what you're all saying here is that I've no need to do that. I can use my computer connected to my current piano and use software synths to manipulate anything I create on my piano. And I presume that many of those software programs have multi-track facilities. Hmmm... I can see that I need to look into this.

 

However, I've now got a picture in mind of me spending hours or days at my computer instead of being at a keyboard. I'm not sure that appeals. What I'd imagined was a series of knobs and buttons on my keyboard that would allow me to be creative while playing.

 

It's obvious that I'm a real starter at this, so apologies if I sound like a real amateur. Give me a piano and several sheets of blank paper and I'm comfortable....

 

Lots to think about and research. Thanks to everyone.

[hatman]

I looked at the Reaper web site (thank for that). Looks very interesting. My main thought as I was reading and looking at the control panel was - wouldn't it be great if I could have all of those knobs and sliders on a physical piece of equipment in front of me.....

[David Loving]

You are wise to look into software.

[David Emm]

 

I started on piano, so I understand your attachment. It IS more fully engaging in key ways. However, that has a lot to do with my ability to multi-track effectively now. It all counts and you're ahead of the game with some acoustic playing in-hand.

The Juno-Gi is a great starter synth, but you'd outstrip its capabilities too easily. No law says you can't go there as a learning move, but for a little more money, you'll be far better off. As a synth-rule, you get what you pay for by moving up a price point or two. Besides, you can still use your current keyboard, so you need not make any massive leaps just yet. The M3 has a crisp display and a well-appointed sequencer, so that could be a reasonable alternative if you want to learn sequencing a bit closer to real keys. YouTube features a mass of tutorials on basically Everything, too.

There are quite a few assignable controller boxes such as the Novation Nocturn, but they require some experience to apply well. If you start with a DAW, yes, you'll be a bit off-kilter at first, but simply setting it up and working "inside the box" for a while will teach you a great deal about how to proceed in your bid to seriously orchestrate.

 

 

 

[Cygnus64]

I'm a conventional classical musician (trained at the Royal Academy of Music, London). I've followed the conventional methods of music composition - although I invent at my piano, I'm having to 'hear' the various instruments in my head. And the finished piece too, whether that's for just a small group or a full orchestra. Of course that's the procedure used by everyone from Beethoven through to Prokofiev. Of course I write all my compositions down on music score paper.

 

I imagined that by buying a keyboard synth I'd be able to do the same, except I'd have a huge bank of sounds to hear in real time and a recording facility built-in so that I can create layers and play them back immediately. That's tremendously appealing. In fact last night I watched a YouTube demo of the Roland Juno-Gi which seems to provide all of those things I'd imagined.

 

But what you're all saying here is that I've no need to do that. I can use my computer connected to my current piano and use software synths to manipulate anything I create on my piano. And I presume that many of those software programs have multi-track facilities. Hmmm... I can see that I need to look into this.

 

 

As a fellow classical guy, I STRONGLY recommend looking into Sibelius or Finale before anything else. They both come with software synths so you'll be learning a bit about the synth/plug-in world as you do notation. They can also import/export midi, have little mixers, can use effects (reverb, chorus) so you'll be getting a "production" education along the way. They will also speed up your writing in ways you can't imagine.

[hatman]

Thanks for all the additional advice. Today I discovered something that I think will be the solution. I headed over to YouTube and watched a couple of demos of Reaper. Looks logical and interesting, easy to add layers of sound and edit. I like the look of it. Then came the point where the guy called up on screen his 'virtual keyboard'. Yuk. I immediately thought - suppose there are such things as 'silent keyboards' that I can use instead - then I can have a set-up in front of my computer that combines the best of both worlds. Yes - I know you are all going to think me a complete dork for not knowing these things, but I honestly didn't know these things existed.

 

So I then had a look at the Korg and Roland web sites, and of course there's a complete range of MIDI keyboard controllers that do that exact job of 'silent keyboard'. And the prices are very low (remarkably low for the Korg ones).

 

So I think this is the route I'm going to concentrate on - the combination of software DAW and a MIDI keyboard on my desk in front of the computer. I will probably need to get a decent sound card and some better powered monitors, but it seems to me that this combination should eventually allow me to do the things I want to do. Now I also know when reading reviews of various keyboards the reviewers often ask the question 'can it also be used as a MIDI controller?'

 

Here in South Korea I can get the complete range of Korg and Roland gear, also other brands like Kurzweil, Casio and CME. I think I'll focus on Korg and Roland.

 

I'm really very grateful for all the advice. I'm looking forward to a whole new experience.

[Stevesie]

Check out the Roland A800 pro midi controller keyboard if you head down that route, or of course you can just use your current digital piano with a USB lead as the midi controller. You miss out on the extra controller functions of the A800 pro obviously, but it would get you started.

 

 

[kanker.]

Please help me choose my first synth. I have had several Yamaha digital pianos, currently own a YDP-V240, but have never used a synth. I'm an experienced player and composer, classical style. I'd like to get involved in modern music, using synth sounds and compose using rhythms and several layers of sound.

 

Although my current piano has USB connections, I've never used them, and never used music software on my computer. But I'd like to try all of these things.

Before you buy a keyboard, I'd say just use the USB MIDI feature that's already in your YDP, save some money, figure out what you like and what features you'd want if you bought another keyboard controller in the meantime.

[CEB]

If you want to delve into the details behind synth sound construction here is my favorite free synth.

 

http://sonigen.com/

 

For low cost comericial synths I like Memorymoon or Messiah. The First's layout is based on the MemoryMoog the 2nd's layout based on the Prophet5.

 

You KVR audio has lots of reviews and research resources.

[hatman]

Thanks for all the additional comments. Yes, I've noted the Roland A-800 and 600. The Novation Impulse 61 also looks very interesting.

 

Somewhat confused by the huge choice of DAWs (and the prices). However I've just downloaded Reaper for a trial, and the generous people at Cockos have now extended the trial period to 60 days. That's excellent customer service.

[hatman]

A quick update to conclude this thread: after a great deal of consideration and research I decided to start off my venture into computer based composition by buying an Akai MPK49, a copy of Ableton and some Audio Technica headphones. This should get me started. In due course I'll add some studio monitors and an external sound card/amp.

 

In choosing the keyboard I considered Roland and Novation as alternatives, but the Akai came up trumps for quality of construction and facilities. Ableton was chosen because of ease of use and the huge number of instructional videos available.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input.

[CEB]

While searching YouTube this morning for Arturia demos I saw this. This would make a good sticky.

 

[video:youtube]