OT: Today is just a heartbreaking day

[Throbert]

Painful to watch an interview of a couple who lost their daughter.

So many can't watch because they are afraid or don't want to feel, where's your soul.

A disturbed kid with obvious mental problems and his mother fails to police her weapons. I don't get that.

[Ken Beaumont]

I feel for those who lost their loved ones. Yes, I don't get what was in her head. Especially since she complained about her kid not letting her touch him. If that kid had zero empathy for others, she should of used a gun safe! And not let that kid near it!

[therealvicz]

Let's not talk politics. Especially, when your not from the country your complaining about.

 

I had second thoughts and went back to delete my comments, although I would not consider them to be political and they were meant to be helpful. Nevertheless this is not the place to create offence even if inadvertently.

[Ken Beaumont]

Thanks! One of the great things about this forum is we all do a great job of not letting the politics slip in. Some forums its seems every thread devolves into a political argument. I hate that! That's just one of the reasons I visit here daily.

[PinkFloydDudi]

AP was running an article about the 10 worst mass murders ever and they all have been within the last 20 or so years. You just have to ask yourself, what is the world coming to? What was so different 30-50 years ago that there just weren't incidents like this (aside from war)? Was it the consequences then versus now? I don't think so. Many of these end up in the shooter taking their own life afterwards. I just don't understand this madness.

 

And my heart and prayers go out to those in Connecticut.

 

Pretty sure the AP is wrong. In articles I have been reading,the most mass murders and spree killings was actually in the 30's and 40's.

 

Up until this Connecticut issue, the biggest school killings were in the UK and Germany.

 

The difference between then and now? The availability of the super-hype media. I'll stop there though to not derail the sadness felt in this thread...just wanted to correct innaccurate information that seems to paint the wrong picture.

 

 

Gun debate aside - I can't even imagine what those folks have gone through. I've sat and pondered what it would be like to get a phone call and hear about this knowing your child was at that school...I tear up and stop before making it through the scenario in my head.

 

I have heard (not confirmed?) that they brought all parents to the firehouse, and then bus after bus unloaded with kids. Then they announced that the bus that just unloaded was the last bus. I couldn't imagine being a parent in that situation. Just waiting to hope your child is the next one in line to exit the busses.

 

People say there is a special place in hell for these people...I hope not. I hope hell has a place that it sends its bad people...and may that kid rot and be tortured for the rest of infinity.

 

I only hope the media hype does not cause the next person to say "he killed 26, I need to beat that number".

[Ken Beaumont]

From Wikipedia:

 

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator first killed his wife, and committed suicide with his last explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (714 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.

 

The bomber was the school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55, who was angry after being defeated in the spring 1926 election for township clerk. He was thought to have planned his "murderous revenge" after that public defeat; he had a reputation for difficulty on the school board and in personal dealings.

 

As for mass murder it hard to beat a government:

Khmer Rouge , Darfur , NKVD , The Holocaust , Armenian Genocide

 

Bad people do bad things! And you are right, sensationalizing it makes all the more attractive to certain types of psyche!

 

[Steve Nathan]

Let's just say that when you forbid positive influences in our society you enable the negative ones

 

Politics & religion

[Griffinator]

AP was running an article about the 10 worst mass murders ever and they all have been within the last 20 or so years. You just have to ask yourself, what is the world coming to? What was so different 30-50 years ago that there just weren't incidents like this (aside from war)? Was it the consequences then versus now? I don't think so. Many of these end up in the shooter taking their own life afterwards. I just don't understand this madness.

 

1) Increasingly narcissistic HS grads thanks to public school psychologists insisting on "everyone's a winner" mentality by teachers. The children grow up expecting to win regardless of how they perform, and when life hits them in the face, they shatter like glass, and do crazy s**t like this.

 

2) Increasing isolation from real people and real community. We are lucky here, in that we have people that actually care about others on these forums. That STILL doesn't replace real human contact and face-to-face conversation. Isolation + lack of social skills + lack of real companionship = recipe for obsessive and sometimes dangerous behavior.

 

I can list off other reasons, but these two are the biggest.

[Bridog6996]

This article about mental illness from the perspective of a parent that many of you might find interesting.

 

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/15/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

 

Practically all my friends on Facebook are passing that article around. I'm sure the author meant well, but I find it wrong in so many ways.

[richwhite9]

Westboro Baptist pulled into town 2 hours ago to attend the funerals tomorrow. Anonymous has the pictures of their rooms and the two police cruisers protecting them.

 

May you live in interesting times .

 

I think there's enough police to prevent any funeral violence and to keep WBC well away from the mourners and the WBC haters.

 

 

Just what's needed: a political rally and a religious rally interrupting the funerals.

[tarkus]

AP was running an article about the 10 worst mass murders ever and they all have been within the last 20 or so years. You just have to ask yourself, what is the world coming to? What was so different 30-50 years ago that there just weren't incidents like this (aside from war)? Was it the consequences then versus now? I don't think so. Many of these end up in the shooter taking their own life afterwards. I just don't understand this madness.

 

1) Increasingly narcissistic HS grads thanks to public school psychologists insisting on "everyone's a winner" mentality by teachers. The children grow up expecting to win regardless of how they perform, and when life hits them in the face, they shatter like glass, and do crazy s**t like this.

 

2) Increasing isolation from real people and real community. We are lucky here, in that we have people that actually care about others on these forums. That STILL doesn't replace real human contact and face-to-face conversation. Isolation + lack of social skills + lack of real companionship = recipe for obsessive and sometimes dangerous behavior.

 

I can list off other reasons, but these two are the biggest.

 

I agree

[NeedMoreBass]

[video:youtube]

[ProfD]

In the wake of this tragedy, gun control and mental health will lead the discussion.

 

Beyond the talk, parents, family and friends need to do a better job of making medical professionals and law enforcement aware of folks with known mental problems.

 

Love is like oxygen. People need it on some level or they die from the inside out.

[Outkaster]

AP was running an article about the 10 worst mass murders ever and they all have been within the last 20 or so years. You just have to ask yourself, what is the world coming to? What was so different 30-50 years ago that there just weren't incidents like this (aside from war)? Was it the consequences then versus now? I don't think so. Many of these end up in the shooter taking their own life afterwards. I just don't understand this madness.

 

1) Increasingly narcissistic HS grads thanks to public school psychologists insisting on "everyone's a winner" mentality by teachers. The children grow up expecting to win regardless of how they perform, and when life hits them in the face, they shatter like glass, and do crazy s**t like this.

 

2) Increasing isolation from real people and real community. We are lucky here, in that we have people that actually care about others on these forums. That STILL doesn't replace real human contact and face-to-face conversation. Isolation + lack of social skills + lack of real companionship = recipe for obsessive and sometimes dangerous behavior.

 

I can list off other reasons, but these two are the biggest.

 

Yeah kids are out of control. They think people owe them something. I have news for some of these college grads, no one owes you shit. Welcome to the real world.

[johnchop]

The talk has been ongoing. It's my understanding that currently enacted policy and funding are just plain lacking.

 

I know of at least one case where a person is known to present a danger to society, but the state can't/won't step in (for legal/funding reasons) to commit the individual. The parents have exhausted all of their finances to keep the person in facilities.

 

There are cases (presumably this one) where the mind is just plain broken. No doubt certain cultural influences and societal pressures are pushing vulnerable people to do horrific things that they may not otherwise do. However, friends and family can't help the truly crazy.

 

Hope I haven't crossed the line into political here. I'm certainly not consciously wearing a partisan hat when I write this. Please PM if you feel otherwise and I'll try to nuke my comment.

 

Peace and love, peace and love...

 

 

[KenElevenShadows]

In the wake of this tragedy, gun control and mental health will lead the discussion.

 

Beyond the talk, parents, family and friends need to do a better job of making medical professionals and law enforcement aware of folks with known mental problems.

 

Yes!!! I completely agree with this. As someone who works at a school as well as someone who has a psychology degree, I believe that these two things are the biggest issues to address with respect to these mass shootings. And as someone who works at a school, you can guarantee that we've been deeply affected by this and have had this seared in our brains. It's horrifying.

 

This link and the quotes are a discussion of the mass shootings that have taken place in the past 30 years:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

 

GUN CONTROL (BUT NOT BANNING):

Weapons: Of the 142 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns. (See charts below.) Just as Jeffrey Weise used a .40-caliber Glock to slaughter students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did James Holmes, along with an AR-15 assault rifle, when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater. In Newtown, Connecticut, Adam Lanza wielded two handguns and a .223 Bushmaster semiautomatic assault rifle as he massacred 20 school children and six adults.

http://assets.motherjones.com/interactives/projects/2012/12/updated-mass-shootings/final_weapons2.png

http://assets.motherjones.com/interactives/projects/2012/12/updated-mass-shootings/final_illegal2.png

Obviously needs to be further discussion on gun control, given that 3/4th of the guns - including assault, semi-automatic, and other military assault weapons - were obtained legally. This should not be a partisan issue. This should be a common sense issue.

 

And it should not be banning guns entirely, a ludicrous and unrealistic proposition. We're talking about tightly regulating and banning military-style assault weapons, not hunting rifles. Whatever we have now is NOT working, and we've seen that tighter regulations, oversight, and banning of military-style assault weapons have worked in Australia and elsewhere. Again, whatever we have now is NOT working.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MENTAL ILLNESS:

The killers: Half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (12 and 19, respectively); the other 31 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, government buildings, and military bases. Forty four of the killers were white males. Only one of them was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was a mere 11 years old. (See Jonesboro, Ark., in 1998.) A majority were mentally illand displayed signs of it before setting out to kill. Explore the map for further detailswe do not consider it to be all-inclusive, but based on the criteria we used to identify mass murders, we believe that we've produced the most comprehensive rundown available on this particular type of traumatic violence. (Mass murders represent only a sliver of America's overall gun violence.)

I'll repeat it again: the majority were mentally ill. We desperately need treatment options for people. It's not just hardly anything except for a smattering of social services, most of which have been shuttered by economic woes, government cutbacks, etc. (and again, this isn't partisan, this is common sense...all political parties need to realize this). If the choice is nothing much and jail, and it's rather hard to go to jail if you haven't yet done anything but you are mentally ill, then that's not a very strong choice.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

EVERYBODY'S A WINNER!

As for the people bringing up kids under an "everybody's a winner" schooling, I have to say that if this is a factor at all (and I cannot stand this sort of approach with kids, but that's a whole 'nother matter), it's a small one. Here's my thoughts in this matter:

1. When did this "everybody's a winner" thing start occurring? Because if this is what we're attributing to it, then as you can see, it's been going on for a while. Is this the case?

2. The average age of the killers was 35. Many were adults. Mentally ill adults, not simply people who thought, "Hey, I'm entitled! I'm a winner!" This also means that since this study goes back 30 years, this would have been a nationwide school policy back in the 1960s and 1970s, not just now. So no, I don't think this quite adds up.

3. A few teachers are hardly is so influential that everyone would say, "Oh, I am a winner, and everybody's a winner!"!!!! If us teachers were that influential, we would have also had an enormous reduction in the amount of people lying, cheating, stealing, fighting, cutting in line, writing poorly online, and everything else. No, the truth of the matter is that we are not nearly as influential as the family that brings these kids up. And you and I and everyone else damned well know this. I only *wish* we were this influential. The country would a helluva lot better off if we were.

4. On the one hand, we're blasting teachers for helping to "create" these mass murderers, but on the other hand, we're now hailed as heroes who saved kids' lives. The school principal, school psychologist, and a few teachers saved many kids lives, but they're the same sort of people creating mass murderers? This is hilarious!! Almost as funny as the protesters in Wisconsin who were attempting to blame teachers' "exorbitant" salaries for the lousy economy! Yeah. Lotsa people saying, "I wanna go to 5+ years of college, take a bunch of tests and obtain a bunch of certificates so I can make begin making $30,000/year and have a house in the Hamptons."

5. No matter how much you tell everyone that they're a winner, deep down, most people know. Well, let's see now, those people live in a larger house, all the girls like that guy but not that guy, some people get better grades than others, some people live in a better neighborhood, some people are a**holes, some people are better athletes, some people have severe disabilities, some people don't knit well, some people are lousy parents while others are great parents, some people cannot bake a cake to save their life, some people are heroic, grandpa's good at whistling but no one else is, the kid down the block is great at catching caterpillars but his sister ain't, some people are good at chopping wood, those two women can speak Arabic but those other two women can't, some people dress snazzier than others, etc. People notice that everyone is different and have different abilities, and that people suck and some things and rule at others, and having a few teachers say otherwise doesn't really color over this very well.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

INCREASING ISOLATION FROM REAL PEOPLE AND REAL COMMUNITY

I wouldn't be surprised if this fed into it a little, but truly, the main reason is still our inability to deal with mental health issues. While increasing isolation probably doesn't help, unless you can make a case for this increasing mental instability AND you can make a case for this occurring in the past 30 years, I'm not certain that this is the main issue, but wouldn't want to discredit this idea either!!!

 

That said, it's an important issue nonetheless, and something that we should address.

 

Sorry. I've been trying to keep my mouth shut, as this has really affected me, but I felt I had to say something.

 

 

[icarusi]

It seems like the rate of these mass killings is accelerating. Afterwards there's talk, but little changes, and there never seems to be a consensus to disarm significantly.

 

Meanwhile there are multi-shot firearms available to virtually everyone, legally, illegally and TWOC, whether they're sane or any degree of unbalanced mind, so it's only a matter of time before it happens next, and probably not long.

 

A person in the USA is 20x more likely to die from a firearm incident than in any other developed nation.

[icarusi]

A person in the USA is 20x more likely to die from a firearm incident than in any other developed nation.

I was quoting a quote there, which is wrong:-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

If you include Canada and Argentina it's only 2x, Switzerland, Finland and France 3x, Germany, Australia and Ireland 10x, Spain 15x, UK 40x.

[PinkFloydDudi]

For those pushing the gun control thing... this video might make you rethink your stance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXOuuHcjbs

 

A pretty entertaining 28 minutes with Penn and Teller.

[icarusi]

A person in the USA is 20x more likely to die from a firearm incident than in any other developed nation.

This is the source of the 20x quote:-

 

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Fulltext/2011/01000/Homicide,_Suicide,_and_Unintentional_Firearm.35.aspx

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

I can't find a table for highest guns per capita with lowest firearm-related death rate.

 

USA has a homicide:suicide ratio of 2:3 so mental health does seem to be a big factor. If you omit suicides USA has 92x the UK firearm murder rate.