Hey, Fred_C, 'bout them strings...

[Caevan O’Shite]

Not to highjack another thread, I thought I'd start a new one:

 

 

(It probably doesn't hurt that I'm using D R Pure Blues pure/solid nickel on round-core strings, .011" - .050" gauges... they really warm and fatten 'em up, try 'em on your SG with the 500T... )

...

 

Hey Caevan,

 

I've been using D'Addario EPN 115 Pure Nickel (11-48). I am fairly pleased with the tone. I know I should be playing flat wounds, but I've never liked the feel of them. I am intrigued by the .050 6th string on your DR's. Do you think they would provide a warm, liquid clean tone (think Wes, Joe Pass, Bucky Pizzarelli)? I might try a set when I next have my guitars set up. They're both playing very well right now, so this would be a future experiment.

 

Regards.

 

Why do you say, "I know I should be playing flat wounds"?

 

I do think the strings I use provide a warm, liquid clean tone; their round-cores and "compression winding" are a part of their tone and feel, as well. They have less high-treble and low-bass than otherwise similar nickel-plated-steel wound-strings, with more mids; punchy and smooth, fat warmth with sparkle and harmonic swirl on top. Lots of zing while they're still fresh, warm and burnished with punch as they age. I've used 'em to warm up cold, overly bright "metal" guitars, and they're my favorites for Les Pauls. Great for Jazz, Blues, Blues Rock, Classic Rock, rootsy stuff, Country... If I do the pinching claw-motion thumb thing on octaves it's an instant trip to Wes-ville...

 

You might also like GHS Nickel Rockers and/or GHS Eric Johnson sig-strings (same thing), which are solid-nickel (wound on hex-cores) that have been roller-wound to squash the winding for a smoother feel and tone than regular round-wound nickel strings, while being brighter and much more flexible than flatwounds. Great strings, if I hadn't come upon the D R Pure Blues, I would probably use them.

 

Then there are cool, pricey, hard to find, but very high quality (they specialize in strings for a lot of classical violin-family and other uncommon/archaic instruments) Thomastik-Infeld BeBop Jazz roundwound strings; they use smaller-diameter winding and larger-diameter core wires for a smoother feel and smooth, fat, warm tone that's brighter than flatwounds. George Benson and Herb Ellis like Thomastik-Infelds; George has his own sig-string lines of T-I flatwound and roundwound jazz strings, as a matter of fact.

[Fred_C]

Hey Caevan,

 

Thanks for all the good info. I may try a set of the DR's on my Sheraton. My comment on flat wounds stems from the fact that they have always been a mainstay with jazz cats attempting to avoid "string screech" when ascending/descending the neck. I just have never liked them much.

 

You know, you are an incredible resource. You are without a doubt, one of the most knowledgeable musicians I've ever known. Your comments are always factual, informative and detailed.

 

Thanks!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Shucks, I'm just a detail-obsessive geek...

 

You might really like those GHS and Thomastik-Infeld strings, as well. I'd be running T-I Bebop ("Jazz roundwounds") and/or Swing (flatwounds) if I had a couple of dedicated "Jazz Guitars"...

[Scott Fraser]

Hey Caevan,

Thanks for all the good info. I may try a set of the DR's on my Sheraton. My comment on flat wounds stems from the fact that they have always been a mainstay with jazz cats attempting to avoid "string screech" when ascending/descending the neck. I just have never liked them much.

 

And they lack sustain & tone, & have a dull 'boinky' attack. They never did anything for me either. But other guys can make them sound great, so, different strokes, etc.

I've been using the DR Blues for a couple years, after Caevan recommended them here, & for me they're the perfect string, couldn't be happier. But string type is an immensely personal decision process. They may not work at all for some people. For me, I've found the last string brand/type I'll ever need to explore.

 

You know, you are an incredible resource. You are without a doubt, one of the most knowledgeable musicians I've ever known. Your comments are always factual, informative and detailed.

Thanks!

 

Well, yes, I think we all feel that way here.

[whitefang]

I first tried "flatwound" strings back in '69 when Fender put them out. Didn't really like them either. Switched to Earnie Ball "super slinky's" and never looked back.

 

I imagine by now, flat wound string makers have worked out the kinks(no pun intended), but I'd still be a bit wary.

Whitefang

[Bartholomew]

To join the party - I put a set of DR Blues on my 74 LP Custom after Caevan mentioned them on a prior post.

 

They get the job done for sure --- but on the other hand I play various amps and set-ups at different times using several guitars so it's hard to compare.

 

I always liked Ernie Ball but have run into a couple of bad .11 sets and they stretch too much so that problem is solved.

[Larryz]

I've put flatwounds on 3 of my Taylors (to include an acoustic just for kicks) as I hate string squeek. It didn't take long for me to take them off as they are dull (ie. D'addario Chromes) high tensioned and thumpy on the bass strings. They take the acoustic completely out of the acoustic...I also do not care for stainless steel strings as they cause early fret wear (unless you run stainless frets)...I have 3 sets of the new Thomas's under the Christmas tree at $22 bucks a set that I am anxious to try out...they are the Jazz Swing 111's which are $2 more per set than the stainless, and are nickel wound flat wounds on wire core for more natural and bendable action with more treble. The reviews so far are top notch with one guy running them on an acoustic guitar...keeping my fingers crossed...LOL.

[Caevan O’Shite]

have run into a couple of bad...sets...

 

I've heard that about most string brands; it's not that it doesn't happen, it's that it happens from time to time to SOMEBODY with every brand.

 

Not picking on you, Bartholomew, you just provided the handy quote...

[picker]

One guitar I've found works better with flatwounds is the Line 6 Variax. The piezos in the bridge accentuate zing from roundwound strings, and it just goes away when you use flats. And, since you're not really depending on the strings for the tone, it's a great combination. As far as using them on any other electric guitar, I'm not gonaa. I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

[SEHpicker]

Another vote for the DR Blues - I buy .11s by the batch on Ebay for around 5 bucks a set

[Larryz]

One guitar I've found works better with flatwounds is the Line 6 Variax. The piezos in the bridge accentuate zing from roundwound strings, and it just goes away when you use flats. And, since you're not really depending on the strings for the tone, it's a great combination. As far as using them on any other electric guitar, I'm not gonaa. I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

 

<---you may be able to hear what I'm going for on the acoustic by listening to this guy's polished strings (same concept-get rid of the squeak)...I'm running lightly polished strings on my Nylons and will switch to fully polished when they wear out. The stock Nylon basses squeel like pigs but are much brighter and you lose a little acoustic sound with polished, burnished, and yes, flatwound-like LaBella Classical Studio 413P. Thomas' makes studio flats for Nylons..it costs $30 + $3 S&H for 1 set (or $108 + $4 for 4 sets) to have Greeninger's polished set of acoustic strings (you pick the brand). For $22 I might try the Thomas' flats or the Greeningers' on the acoustic. I'm definately going to put the Thomas's on the T3 electric and the T5 acoustic/electric. I had the saddle on the T5 changed for a wound 3rd so I can use an acoustic/electric set (or flatwounds) instead of the unwound 3rd electric set. For archtops, the L-5 Gibson's would be a good choice for those who like roundwounds with a wound 3rd string. Right now I'm running GHS White Bronze acoustic/electric on the acoustic and they squeak a little less than the regular bronze strings. I'm not afraid to experiment especially after hearing Jim Greeninger play his polished acoustic set on this video.

[Scott Fraser]

 

Since he's playing different guitars it's not really comparing apples to apples. Also, it sounds like he's using the output from a piezo pickup, so it's not really complimentary to the sound of either guitar. Pity. It would be nice to hear real mics on the same guitar with the different string sets.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

 

I can like 'em, and quite a bit- on a dedicated jazz-guitar. I wouldn't particularly care for flats on, say, a Les Paul, unless I wanted to use that Les Paul for fingerstyle Jazz a LOT. I personally wouldn't care for 'em that much for Rock, Blues, or most anything other than more or less traditional Jazz. On something like an ES-165 or L-5, though, flatwounds can be schweedt.. ! Even with the tone-knob rolled way back!

[Larryz]

 

Since he's playing different guitars it's not really comparing apples to apples. Also, it sounds like he's using the output from a piezo pickup, so it's not really complimentary to the sound of either guitar. Pity. It would be nice to hear real mics on the same guitar with the different string sets.

 

He's more in to a string squeak comparison than the sound of the guitars. They are set pretty close on volume and reverb and most guys don't have two identical guitars strung up to switch back and forth with. One of my buddies has a Martin and we switch it back and forth with my Taylor to check different string brands and guages for squeak tests. You can tell which set squeaks more plugged in or not plugged in. His Martin has a piezo while my Taylor has two body sensors and an under the bridge pickup. We both have the identical T3's and T5's and you get the idea. Each time one of us buys new strings we do the squeak test again through PA's, amps and unplugged. I think the video gives a pretty good sample for the purpose intended. Many times you don't get this good of sound sample on Youtube. The Elixir Polywebs do pretty good on string squeak.

[Larryz]

Most of the early Fenders came from the factory loaded with flatwounds. When I bought my Jaguar and Jazzmaster re-issues the first thing I did was take off the flatwounds. I like roundwounds on all Fender models for R&R.

[Scott Fraser]

He's more in to a string squeak comparison than the sound of the guitars. (snip) I think the video gives a pretty good sample for the purpose intended. Many times you don't get this good of sound sample on Youtube. The Elixir Polywebs do pretty good on string squeak.

 

Well, it does show relative levels of squeak, but there is an additional artifact, in that one is noticeably duller than the other. Is that the different guitar, or a side effect of the polishing? To get a useful comparison I'd need to know if there's a tradeoff between squeak & liveliness, & we don't get that in this video. Flatwounds are quite a bit less squeaky than roundwounds, but there's a major tone, sustain, & attack tradeoff to get there.

[Winston Psmith]

Another issue with flatwounds, only barely touched on here, is string tension. D'Addario prints the relative string tension on their packaging, and comparing the tension of a flatwound .011 set, with a wrapped 'G' string, to the same gauges in a roundwound set, it was almost like adding another string's worth of tension to the neck. Not sure I'd want to try that on some of the less-expensive import guitars.

[picker]

I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

 

I can like 'em, and quite a bit- on a dedicated jazz-guitar. I wouldn't particularly care for flats on, say, a Les Paul, unless I wanted to use that Les Paul for fingerstyle Jazz a LOT. I personally wouldn't care for 'em that much for Rock, Blues, or most anything other than more or less traditional Jazz. On something like an ES-165 or L-5, though, flatwounds can be schweedt.. ! Even with the tone-knob rolled way back!

 

like I said, on a big bodied jazz box, okay. But on a flattop? Nev-air! The Gods of Bluegrass would strike such a blasphemer dead from hyperacidity of the left hind leg!

 

[Larryz]

Another issue with flatwounds, only barely touched on here, is string tension. D'Addario prints the relative string tension on their packaging, and comparing the tension of a flatwound .011 set, with a wrapped 'G' string, to the same gauges in a roundwound set, it was almost like adding another string's worth of tension to the neck. Not sure I'd want to try that on some of the less-expensive import guitars.

 

I compared Flat Wounds to an Acoustic set WP and found the following tensions:

 

Daddario Flat Wound 10-48 Chromes to Daddario Acoustic EXP 10-47

 

 

string 1 A 10p 16.2 lbs

string 1 FW 10p 16.2 lbs

 

string 2 A 14p 17.8 lbs

string 2 FW 14p 17.8 lbs

 

string 3 A 23w 27.9 lbs

string 3 FW 20w 20.2 lbs

 

string 4 A 30w 27.1 lbs

string 4 FW 28w 21.3 lbs

 

string 5 A 39w 25.4 lbs

string 5 FW 38w 21.6 lbs

 

string 6 A 47w 20.7 lbs

string 6 FW 48w 19.9 lbs

 

It looks like the flat wound set has less tension than the acoustic set. I'm sure you're right that the flatwounds have a little more tension if compared to an electric set and that's why they don't bend as easy.

[Larryz]

I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

 

I can like 'em, and quite a bit- on a dedicated jazz-guitar. I wouldn't particularly care for flats on, say, a Les Paul, unless I wanted to use that Les Paul for fingerstyle Jazz a LOT. I personally wouldn't care for 'em that much for Rock, Blues, or most anything other than more or less traditional Jazz. On something like an ES-165 or L-5, though, flatwounds can be schweedt.. ! Even with the tone-knob rolled way back!

 

like I said, on a big bodied jazz box, okay. But on a flattop? Nev-air! The Gods of Bluegrass would strike such a blasphemer dead from hyperacidity of the left hind leg!

 

They Wood STRING him up (pun intended)...If I had an arch-top jazz body like the L5 Gibson, I would try running L5 Gibson round wounds instead of flatwounds, as long as it doesn't pick up a lot of squeak. Those big bodied jazz boys still like their flatwounds though...I'm not sure which way the JazzGrass'ers will go in the future. For flat tops, I would try the polished acoustic stings but I ain't like'en the price on 'em...

[Larryz]

He's more in to a string squeak comparison than the sound of the guitars. (snip) I think the video gives a pretty good sample for the purpose intended. Many times you don't get this good of sound sample on Youtube. The Elixir Polywebs do pretty good on string squeak.

 

Well, it does show relative levels of squeak, but there is an additional artifact, in that one is noticeably duller than the other. Is that the different guitar, or a side effect of the polishing? To get a useful comparison I'd need to know if there's a tradeoff between squeak & liveliness, & we don't get that in this video. Flatwounds are quite a bit less squeaky than roundwounds, but there's a major tone, sustain, & attack tradeoff to get there.

 

I agree with you Scott but, I think that's the point of the video (ie. you don't have as much of a tradeoff between stopping the squeak while retaining liveliness/bright acoustic sound with his polished strings). I know without a doubt that flatwounds are dull compared to roundwounds and there is a tradeoff if you don't like that dull thumpy sound that the jazz guys seem to prefer. Polished strings are not as bright on the Nylon sets either. There are guys out there that are trying to bridge the gap. Greeninger is one of them and Thomastik-Infeld is another. Thomas' makes a bronse flatwound for acoustics but I just found out from a buddy today that they do not lower the squeak factor...

 

My issue with squeak is on my acoustic and semi-hollow bodies. Like many Jazz'ers, I like a clean sound without all that squeak at all times. The squeak factor is nill when using round wounds on my solid body guitars. On the solid bodies I like a wound 3rd for a cleaner sound and prefer round wound strings. I don't want to lose the acoustic sound, so I'm interested in the polished strings on the acoustic and will probably give them a try.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I know jazz guys like the tone of flats, and more power to anybody who likes flats, but it's not the sound I'm looking for. As far as using them on an acoustic (other than, say, a big bodied arch-top), I can't imagine anybody liking that sound.

 

I can like 'em, and quite a bit- on a dedicated jazz-guitar. I wouldn't particularly care for flats on, say, a Les Paul, unless I wanted to use that Les Paul for fingerstyle Jazz a LOT. I personally wouldn't care for 'em that much for Rock, Blues, or most anything other than more or less traditional Jazz. On something like an ES-165 or L-5, though, flatwounds can be schweedt.. ! Even with the tone-knob rolled way back!

 

like I said, on a big bodied jazz box, okay. But on a flattop? Nev-air! The Gods of Bluegrass would strike such a blasphemer dead from hyperacidity of the left hind leg!

 

Well, you'll have that...

[Larryz]

Thanks Picker, I just couldn't take it anymore and because of you I snuck the 11-47 T-I nickel wound flats out from under the Christmas Tree and threw a set of them on my acoustic Taylor 416ltd this afternoon! May the Gods of Blue Grass smite me down, but they sound freaken great both unplugged and plugged in...my buddy checked in yesterday and said they sound great on his Taylor T3 and T5 and that I won't regret the cost once I hear them on mine. I hope the hyperacidity dudes don't find me.

[picker]

Well, you were warned...

[Larryz]

UPDATE: Well those T-I flatwounds on the flattop passed the test last night and I didn't get run out of town OR tarred and feathered. I was playing an open mic down at the culb and got some major kudos on the guitar sound from two of the other performers. One is from the Old West Trio cowboy band who is one singer song writer and a guitar player I admire most. The trio (2 of which are out of town for xmas) is made up of two acoustics and a standup bass and are pro level, so his comments meant a lot to me.

 

I showed the two performers the guitar which "it's just a Taylor 416" but they told me it wasn't stock and had no "string talk". I showed them the walnut back and sides, cedar top, ebony board, expression system, pipeline inlays, maple bindings, satin finish, etc. and no it wasn't a stock 416 as it's a limited edition. Then I pointed out the T-I flatwounds as being my latest secret...they loved 'em. After everyone left the 3 of us sat down and jammed for a 1/2 hour and I got even more kudos...I'm not recommending anyone put flatwounds on a flattop and agree with picker (but if you do, spend the $22 bucks and use Thomastik-Infelds)...Not Spamming...

[Larryz]

Thomastik-Infelds Flatwound test completed. 1year Update!

 

 

Well I left those flatwounds on my acoustic for just over 11 months playing it every day and ignoring my other guitars for the most part. The strings still played and sounded good with little wear showing up until yesterday when they came off the acoustic. I highly recommend them for jazzers who like flatwound strings on jazz boxes, semi's and arch tops, and suggest that they will easily last you 6 months before you have to think about changing them. 5 out of 5 star rating from me...

 

I was going to go for a year before changing them if there was no breakage but I bought another acoustic guitar this last month and decided I want that sound on both of my acoustics as I play other styles besides old jazzy standards. The new guitar came loaded with D'Addario EXP coated 12-53's and it sounded great but had a lot of squeak and were a little hard on by fingers. So I swapped them out with ELIXIR Polyweb 11-52's and they sounded and felt much better. I liked getting back to the acoustic sound so I swapped the Thomas' out for Elixirs a month early on my older acoustic, so I could keep comparing both guitars in a little more country back porch genre...the flatwounds sounded and felt good but were too dull on the acoustic/electrics during my comparisons. I still have a couple of guitars loaded with the brand new Thomas' 11-47's for when I get to feeling jazzy.

 

 

[Fred_C]

Interesting report.

 

Regards.

[Caevan O’Shite]

[stroking beard] Yezzzzs....

 

 

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