Playing jazz organ on non-organ keyboards

[nickd]

I like to set myself musical challenges, so after doing a piano exam this year (first musical exam for 29 years...), I'm planning to move on to learning jazz organ.

 

My current set-up is a Kurzweil PC361 and a Casio Privia PX-310. So, the Kurzweil gives me an organ sound that's at least good enough to get started on.

 

My question is: will the PC361 and Privia be close enough to a two-manual Hammond that I can learn proper organ techniques? Or is it so far away that I'll be wasting my time?

 

I thought perhaps I should just get a low-cost unweighted 61 key MIDI controller to replace the Privia as the lower manual - would that be worth it?

 

Then, eventually, if all goes well I can invest in a proper two-manual organ - but I don't have the cash to do that yet.

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and advice.

[Baldwin Funster]

I am not qualified to properly answer your question, but i can do stuff on my XK3c that is harder to play on my XK1 and would be impossible on synth keys, or stiffer action. The higher key trigger point and the fact that you have unlimited poly makes the biggest difference for me when doing organistic techniques.

[JeffLearman]

I'm even less qualified, but I think it's more about the music than the technique. PC361 has a great organ sound, and you should be able to learn and play great organ parts. There will be some closed doors, and it might be interesting to have a thread just on all the lovley little tricks people do on real Hammonds that won't work on many clones.

 

I've seen videos of Jim Alfredson playing a few of these nifty tricks, such as (IIRC) playing notes on both manuals with the same hand at the same time. You can't do that without a dedicated two-manual board that keeps the two manuals close together like a real Hammond.

 

Given you don't have the cash yet, make do with what you have and see how it goes. You'll hit roadblocks, but no show-stoppers.

 

The limitations of clones is a bigger problem for people who already have a big kit of chops developed on the real thing, when those chops don't transfer. For folks like me who've played the real deal but never owned one and never developed that kit, the limitations aren't as big a problem.

 

If your goal is to learn all the nifty tricks various jazzers use on a Hammond, you're out of luck. But if your goal is to learn to play great jazz organ, inspired by the masters, then you have a pretty good tool to start the job.

[keyClicker]

It is possible to learn the details with a non-organ keyboard.

 

But, in my experience... Once you get the full package (two manuals, pedals, waterfall keys, etc) it is hard to go back.

[Michael Wright]

It is possible to learn the details with a non-organ keyboard.

 

But, in my experience... Once you get the full package (two manuals, pedals, waterfall keys, etc) it is hard to go back.

 

I was just in TO, and played some instruments in L&M. Organ patches on keyboards. I found I had no interest whatsoever since getting a C2. However I did use synths etc for years for faking organ parts, but not real organ playing. I should'a gotten into it years ago. But I'm into it now! Have fun!

[nickd]

Thanks guys, that's some useful advice.

 

The PC361 has 9 sliders for drawbars, and dedicated buttons for the other main organ controls, so I think with a two-keyboard setup I can at least get going.

 

I have it on good authority that Santa is bringing me a Tony Monaco DVD as well, so that'll help.

[Delaware Dave]

I'm interested to understand how you are going to do the dual manual, independent drawbar control for each manual? Specifically how do you plan to control the drawbars for the organ on the lower manual, i.e. the privia? I ask this because in your original post you said ".. will the PC361 and Privia be close enough to a two-manual hammond..". I'm trying to understand how you plan on doing this because it is extremely difficult to do on the PC3. In fact, the only person I know who has actually pulled off a dual manual organ with independent drawbar control on each manual using the one set of PC3's sliders is.......... me! And I had to get Kurzweil tech support to help me do it. So I'm interested in understanding how you plan to accomplish this.

[nickd]

I'm interested to understand how you are going to do the dual manual, independent drawbar control for each manual?

 

Good point Dave! Actually, I guess that is going to be one of the roadblocks - I was thinking I'd just leave the lower manual on a standard/common drawbar setting and not change it.

[wmp]

The PC3 KB3 tone wheel engine only supports one instance at a time. The VAST organs are pretty nice too and you can use two or more of them at once. You can use a KB3 organ for one manual and VAST for the other. Two manual drawbar control would require another piece. Kurzweil and others I've seen use one MIDI controller per drawbar, but I don't think anybody uses the same controller mapping. Makes it a bit of a PITA. I don't know if OB drawbars easily support other drawbar mappings than Nord's. It's doable but a little cumbersome.

 

It could be worse. For each setting change, the XK-3 transmits a snapshot of the entire drawbar set stuffed into an NRPN message. It'd take some fancy MIDI filtering to control XK-3 drawbars externally. The filter would have to remember the current setting to correctly map a single incoming controller into an outgoing NRPN. Good thing it's got two sets of drawbars. I have a an XK-3 over PC3x so I can fake the two manual thing very well, but it's still clunky.

 

If you can swing it, I'd recommend an A100 for all the good reasons mentioned above. Having two identical manuals properly positioned is also hard to give up and very tough to do right with two individual boards.

[Al Coda]

In fact, the only person I know who has actually pulled off a dual manual organ with independent drawbar control on each manual using the one set of PC3's sliders is.......... me! And I had to get Kurzweil tech support to help me do it. So I'm interested in understanding how you plan to accomplish this.

 

Dave,- would you please so kind and generous elaborating on this trick in more detail ?

It´s what I try to figure out since some time, assuming it might work using one of the VAST organs for the lower manual, but I was unable to control a KB3 organ for upper manual and a VAST organ for lower manual independently by the same set of sliders nor did I find a way to route both, the KB3 and VAST organs, thru an onboard leslie sim FX chain using the same preamp/amp models for both the VAST and KB3.

Up to now, I was also unable to figure out how to create the standard lower manual drawbar settings 838000000 or 848000000 in VAST when using KB3 for upper manual and/or using some kind of C/V for lower manual VAST organ only.

 

Any help would be very welcome.

 

Also, is there a workaround for the percussion in KB3 not running thru the C/V with C/V activated ?

 

A.C.

[CEB]

.......

Then, eventually, if all goes well I can invest in a proper two-manual organ - but I don't have the cash to do that yet.

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and advice.

 

What endstate are you going for? A stay at home console hammond or a twin manual portable combo rig of some sort. The Hammond tonewheel console prices in the UK are outrageous but if you want to learn how to play organ I would see if I could find a used non-tonewheel console with a full set of pedal to learn organ. Lowery, Conn, Yamaha, Kawai, Hammond LSI or ... E-100 or H-100 Tonewheel. Learning the feet is what is hard. But that is just me.

 

If you are aiming at getting some sort of twin manual gig machine then whatever works is good.

 

[Delaware Dave]

Dave,- would you please so kind and generous elaborating on this trick in more detail ? A.C.

I'm going back a year now so I don't have full memory of how we (kurz tech and I) got this to work. I believe that the KB MUTES didn't function as anticipated as it is only for the buttons. I remember the solution was complex (as described to me by the Kurz tech) but it involved using Zone Mutes rather than KB Mutes; he also created 4 zones, two zone for the KB3 and two zones for the VAST organ. There is a KB3 on the upper zone (top manual) and a VAST organ on the lower zone (lower manual). The sliders control the KB3 by default and then by engaging the SW switch the sliders control the VAST drawbars of the lower manual. I believe he used Zone Muting to switch zones and thus slider assignments on the fly. I don't fully recall why there are two zones representing the KB3 and two zones for representing the VAST; it has something to do with the slider assignments and other controllers, I think. Again, I'd have to look at it to understand because it has been over a year. I would have never figured it out on my own; but I now have a dual manual organ with independent drawbar control over both sets of drawbars using the one set of sliders engaged by the SW switch. The zones work in "pairs", zone 1 and 2 work the KB3 controls and zone 3 and 4 work the VAST Organ controls. I have another version which splits the single manual PC3 (at C4) where the KB3 operates above the split point and the VAST below the split point. I also have a version using the BIG Leslie through an AUX effect; a version using the old single leslie attached to the VAST and KB3 programs in the setup and a dry version going out the aux output to a Ventilator.

 

Some drawbacks; No Chorus/Vibrato on the VAST organ; but I'm OK with that; I kind of prefer no C/V on the lower manual anyway. The percussion through the C/V issue; can't be rerouted as far as I can tell; you can try creating a zone that only emulates the 2 2/3' and 4' drawbars with an envelope structure equivalent to slow and fast percussion. This way it would not route through the KB3 C/V. The C/V on the PC3 needs alot of improvement; C3 is way over the top; I use C1 and occasionally C2, but C3 (and C2) clash with the Big Leslie (but not as much with the Vent or Motion Sound). I hope that the next big thing by Kurzweil will have two KB3 organs to be played simultaneously; this will alleviate the entire mess of trying to create a dual organ/dual drawbar control that I painfully went through above. The reality is that I only use this as a backup; I still use my Voce V5+ because it is much simpler to create the dual manual organ and with the PC3's 9 sliders and the Voce's 9 drawbars everything to make it work took no time to create. Also, the Voce sounds better. If you are just interested in controlling the KB3 only and defaulting the VAST organ to a preset (say 838000000 or 848000000) then setups 90-93 are available to do that. I just couldn't live with a preset lower manual so it didn't fit my need.

[Al Coda]

If you are just interested in controlling the KB3 only and defaulting the VAST organ to a preset (say 838000000 or 848000000) then setups 90-93 are available to do that. I just couldn't live with a preset lower manual so it didn't fit my need.

 

Wow, that was informative, thx !

It sounds indeed complex but might be a guide to come closer to the target.

Reading 2 ZONEs for each manual in a setup makes me believe the 2nd ZONE for upper and lower manual might be used just only for additional MIDI/controllers routing and/or re-routing on dedicated MIDI channels for upper/lower, these enabling swapping sliders between KB3 and VAST by using MIDI 29 switch.

But this eventually requires ZONE MUTE buttons being functional too (?) and at the moment, I cannot imagine how this is been done.

 

I´d like to reverse engineer one of these dual manual patches.

Did you upload one of these @Sonic ?

 

According to the lower manual VAST registrations, I´ll try the setups you mentioned.

In fact, I ignored all the factory setups since I have the PC3.

Normally, I edit programs, then do my own setups.

 

I´m using ext. Leslie sim too, fed by the 2nd pair of outputs.

Saves DSP and avoids the hassle routing KB3 and VAST organ thru internal (double-) leslie sim.

 

thx again

 

A.C.