Is the Classical Community (Teachers) ignorant or prejudice?

[Jazzmammal]

One of the "problems" with today's music/teaching scene is that the level of playing is sky-high. Some schools like Juilliard and CIM won't teach anything "creative". Make no mistake, they put out monster players, but there's a cost. Glad to hear Peabody is teaching "music" in addition to "how to play your axe."

 

And all those monster players creative or not have virtually no chance to actually make a living at it. There's always the few exceptions and I'm very impressed you seem to be one of them but in the current musical world, no way. Making a living in music today is like winning the lotto. Possible, but...

 

I'm a huge proponent of music is good for the soul and all that but still, to have thousands and thousands of kids every year waste their limited study time majoring in music, spend all that money, then graduate and do what?

 

It's always been hard but back in the day, I was in a good solid Vegas show group booked by one of the top three agencies in the country, traveled all over and made a decent living. I don't see that now and as far as getting consistent gigs locally here in LA? Fuggettaboutit. As a hip hop DJ yes, but as a player?

 

Bob

[MushMusic]

I'm a huge proponent of music is good for the soul and all that but still, to have thousands and thousands of kids every year waste their limited study time majoring in music, spend all that money, then graduate and do what?

 

Be software engineers. Fine arts majors are totally more desirable than CIS grads for software dev. Electronic musicians and 2D artist are at the top. While CS and CIS grads do get more starting pay, the fine arts grads pass them up after a few years. The bottle fed knowldge base of CS and CIS majors gets outdated( which can happen even before they graduate ), but the arts majors will always continue to be creative.

[wmp]

Not sure why some teachers insist on black-and-white generalizations, like they proclaim a rule and categorically deny that there could be any exceptions.

Neurosis.

 

I wasn't making a case for which was better, just that maybe historically, the classical side (sight reading) put down the play by ear / contemporary crowd? Yes/No?

No.

 

+1 and some.

 

Mama Pizzelle (not her real name) certainly had no respect for ears, ear players or ear training. She didn't care much for metronomes either. I've been good friends with one of her victims for over forty years. He's got great technique and sight reading skills. No ears, no time, no dynamics, no taste, no groove. Not so much anymore, but it's been forty years of telling him to trust his ears and play with a click. He's improved a lot over the last 20 years, playing with drum machines and DAWs. His ears are actually very good, but that was strictly verboten. Mama Pizzelle was a dots only lady and very set in her ways. I tuned her pianos once. A Steinway console for the kiddies and a little Steinway grand for her. Both French Provincial Louis XV. Clear plastic covering the living room furniture and rugs, a sweater clad dog rat every bit as neurotic as she was. It was a very disturbing experience for both of us. And her little dog too. I took the money and ran.

 

There are enough Mama Pizzelles around to understand why some folks get bad impressions and make bad assumptions. Bad teachers do incredible lasting damage. The Berklee guy who taught my friend some jazz mailed in his weekly lesson. Both teachers failed to recognize my friend's time weakness and address it. One didn't notice and the other didn't care. Lots of kids trust and believe teachers to a fault. My lifetime batting average for teacher is pretty low. In particular, many of my math teachers and both of my physics teacher were terrible.

 

But time doesn't matter that much when you're a big lovable guy who looks good in a tux, you have dazzling chops and you play ASB type solo gigs. We don't play the same game and we can't swap gigs without looking very silly. We know each other well and we know the score. He's has fifteen years of classical and jazz training and he had to call me to bail him out when he got in way over his head. His kid was a munchkin in a big school production of the Wizard of Oz and they sucked him in to be MD. He had a school full of kids learning the MGM Judy Garland version and a rented conductor's score for the older Broadway show that was very different many places. That's when I realized that I actually knew the language a lot better than my sight reading friend. He missed a lot of detail and didn't understand all the markings. That was the most beautifully detailed stuff I've ever seen. Between the two of us we just barely pulled it of. Either one of us alone would have failed miserably.

 

Many folks asked me why I busted my tail for months working on a kids school play and token payment. The challenge, the learning experience, helping a friend, and the sheer terror of having a bunch of fourth to eighth graders making me look like the chump that I am in front of 1200 people. Preparation took up most of their school year and they were totally into it. I knew they would be awesome and they were. As expected, most of them were more talented and better prepared than I was. Especially the principal characters. Kendra the wicked witch was in a class by herself.

 

About that emphasis on "sight-reading", don't forget that a lot of classical musicians do *not* sight-read that often. They prepare their pieces little by little, working on single passages, etc.

I guess I read well for being semi literate and half blind. That's how ear players do it minus the paper.

 

I like this topic when it goes beyond the us vs them crap. Understanding how people work, hear, read, and think about music has been essential putting my little band together.

[Cygnus64]

There are enough Mama Pizzelles around to understand why some folks get bad impressions and make bad assumptions.

 

Yes, but Mama Pizzelle represents "the Classical Community" as well as your little League coach represents pro ball players. Mama Pizzelle's real problem is that she hasn't got laid in 30 years.

[wmp]

That's a good analogy and a good read. She was a Mrs. and I don't recall a Papa Pizzelle or any kids, so she either killed him or he ran like when he sobered up. The poor dog rat seemed to have stockholm syndrome.

 

[joeljjison]

Some of the classical community is prejudiced yes. I've personally encountered it learning. That there are still teachers who when presented with a student are more interested in teaching with one method and extremely specific aim early is crazy. I really don't understand how children can be made interested in music by only allowing them to play it from one perspective. Shouldn't the primary aim be to learn how to play music rather than learn how to learn music?

 

When I was at uni studying jazz, plenty of score was around, and most of us did read, but ultimately for learning new ideas and material we all just used whatever method we could to assimilate it. Recorded music exists now and has done for quite a while, so you'd think it would revolutionise how we do things as musicians. Score is a wonderful tool and still very important tool, but my personal experience of classical tuitition is that it his its own agenda and does not evolve to the student. This is bad teaching.

 

I hope that this is a minority experience, and I'm sure different forms of prejudice exists amongst all types of musician, mostly due to pride. It would be nice if we just be musicians without a preface!

[Outkaster]

Innate musical ability does not enable you to play any style. Look at the backing bands on American Idol. Through the years AI has had some really good LA musicians. Give them pop, funk, RnB, etc. and they sound great. Country night is usually really bad. Some of them also struggle playing swing. It does not mean they are not good musicians. No one is a master of all styles.

 

Very true and the American Idol band has top guys, but they cant play Reggae either so they usually bring in West Indian musicians if needed but not too often that I have seen. Its true inate music ability does not guarantee that you can play all styles but it can give you core skills that directly influence your ability to be able to pick up other styles. Some people just dont have that ability. You have to exist in all those different music worlds if you really want to make a style a part of you.

[Cygnus64]

Some of the classical community is prejudiced yes.

 

1. Some in every community are prejudiced against something.

 

2. So far, I've yet to see one person described in this thread as members of "the classical community".

 

You're describing the "Teaching community", and there are a million stories of the staid English teacher flunking (insert famous author), the music teacher dissing (insert rock star), the math teacher saying (insert inventor) is dumb.

 

In addition to the Mama Pizzelles (and I had a ton of them), there's Mrs Gallardi, the english teacher who let me do a book report on "A Clockwork Orange" when I was 15. Ms. Clark the orchestra lady let me play a Jean-Luc Ponty solo at the big spring concert.

[Theo Verelst]

So they are ignorant until proven guilty ?

[CEB]

Not sure what the point of the thread is. Is it to discredit classical teachers or teaching? I play everything by ear. There about 6 other are keyboardist in this town I know that gig a lot and can get a gig whenever they want it. We all play by ear .... you have to. Also we all learned through Old School Classical studies.

 

I did 14 years of formal lessons. Hell in Illinois you can shoot someone and not have to do that much time. But this is in my opinion the most effective way to learn the piano.

 

I mean if you can play Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu then Kiss On My List, Maybe I'm Amazaed, Bat out of Hell is pretty much the equivilent of Hot Cross Buns.

 

The things that are hardest is to crossover to are rhythm related. But if like a certain style my guess is you like the feel and if you like the feel you should be able to grasp the feel. My guess is the AI band doesn't like Country, the rhythm section may not be white enough. LOL.

 

I LOVE Professor Longhair his stuff was what probably did the most to pull me to Rock 'n' Roll Piano. Notewise it is real simplistic but grasping all the polyrhythms and syncopated undercurents and what not that is the trick.

 

I may be grossly wrong but my gut assumption is that majority of players on this forums are proof that classically taught musicians can adopt ear training or ... just do it.

[Outkaster]

I put this video clip awhile ago. Seems again fitting in this case:

 

[video:youtube]