Rotation in Piano Technique

[Jazz+]

"Dr. John Mortensen, Professor of Piano at Cedarville University, explains the principle of rotation. It solves lots of problems and sets pianists free, but the majority of students do not understand it. Here's how and why."

 

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[Jazz+]

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[CEB]

Honky Tonk 101!

[SHaka40]

This is of particular interest to me. For some reason, my 4th and 5th finger independence in my right hand just sucks. I don't know whether it is weak muscles, an old injury that I'm not aware of, or just an anatomical difference that I was born with. But it's like my right pinky is glued to my ring finger. To give you an idea of how bad it is, I can barely do the Texas Longhorns symbol (ie "devil's horns" if you will) with my right hand. My left pinky, on the other hand, has almost complete freedom from my left ring finger. It's strange! But this technique, at least in theory, would minimize the effects of this problem on my playing.

 

For you guys that give/take lessons and/or study classical technique: is this something that is regarded as "correct" or is this guy sort of a nonconformist? Seems to me that a lot of people teach that finger independence and lack of arm and wrist movement should be end-goals in terms of technique. I've even seen one famous--if polarizing-- keyboardist (he'll remain nameless as to not derail this thread) say that the individual fingers should be like "little hammers" or something to that effect, while demonstrating the same motion that the above video describes as angular and unnatural. What gives?

[CEB]

....

 

For you guys that give/take lessons and/or study classical technique: is this something that is regarded as "correct" or is this guy sort of a nonconformist? Seems to me that a lot of people teach that finger independence and lack of arm and wrist movement should be end-goals in terms of technique. I've even seen one famous--if polarizing-- keyboardist (he'll remain nameless as to not derail this thread) say that the individual fingers should be like "little hammers" or something to that effect, while demonstrating the same motion that the above video describes as angular and unnatural. What gives?

 

Yes I think it is correct but it isn't a replacement for finger independance either. Also Keyboardist is a sort of a loaded term depending on what keyboard the Keyboardist plays.

 

Mechanically I play organs differently than I play piano which I play differently than synths. I use very little rotation on a synth. But I can't play piano without it.

 

FWIW - I think the folks that do not believe in forearm rotation is a carry over tradition from the days that pian actions were not as firm as they are today. Trills, tremolo, long interval playing is really hard without it. IMO.

[Bridog6996]

These days, I think this is generally regarded as "correct" technique. The idea of "finger independence" is a bit of a myth, and persists from back in the days of Hanon and Czerny, when very little was understood about human physiology compared to today. You wouldn't take medical advice today from an 1800s doctor, right? Sure, you use your fingers when playing, but I think the large muscle groups play the more important role, which I think was explained well in the video.

 

One thing I slightly disagree with is the idea of double rotation playing scale-type passages. I was taught to sort of roll the notes out in one continuous motion using more of the wrist, rather than using a "preparatory" backwards rotation for each note.

 

I agree that my technique changes slightly when playing other keyboard instruments such as organ, but on the most basic of levels, the same ideas are all there.

[mvanmanen]

Hey SHaka40 -- Are you left or right handed? Perhaps the differential 4th and 5th finger independence makes sense if you are left handed?

[SHaka40]

Hey SHaka40 -- Are you left or right handed? Perhaps the differential 4th and 5th finger independence makes sense if you are left handed?

I'm right handed.

[CEB]

Depending on your reading abilty and current level I would practice Hanon.

 

I think there is great value in them as a beginner or as an ear players with weaker reading skills.

 

I still play them some. Once my reading skills started coming back and I was working on Bach's 2 part inventions I ended up using Hanon a lot less. If you can do the 2 part inventions now I you do those. But that is just me.

[klezman]

Highly recommend the video in the OP along with the accompanying posts by this teacher. This guy "gets it" including the historical origins of the damaging "finger hammer" approach. I had to quit for 20 years to unlearn this bad approach. I experienced some of what you describe where my left hand was far better at scales and overall dynamic range than my right. One thing that is really important for me these days is feeling a release after depressing the keys. On different keyboards, I have to find my "spot", then I'm good to go. Watch the video on hand structure for some tips on this. You have to learn what proper coordination feels like (its pretty much impossible to describe) and learn how to find it when you need it(this is the what practice is for more than conditioning IMO). When I get it just right, the keys just melt under my fingers and I can play what I hear (if only that happened more regularly). My problem is falling back into my bad habits of playing but that happens less and less these days. I also pay attention to this when typing on the computer.

 

Also recommend watching YouTube of great technicians like Horowitz, Joey D, Chick Corea, Russell Ferrante (check out Tortise and Hare for an example of really economical technique by Russell).

[16251]

I love this stuff.

[kanker.]

Great vids Jazz+

[torhu]

I don't understand the part about double rotation the woman in the Taubman video talks about. I can't see that she is doing what she claims she is doing. When she's playing the scale fast, there is no rotation per note that I can see. Wouldn't that look like her hand is shaking? I don't see any of that going on.

 

(The guy in the first video does not play anything fast.)

 

And how do you play a scale smoothly and quickly with a technique like that? Someone enlighten me.

[Jazz+]

When playing scales, they claim the rotations become so slight that they are not visible and border on being imperceptible even by the player.

[Joe Muscara]

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for this.

[CEB]

I never thought about in terms of double rotation. In a way that seems confusing.

 

All you are trying to get to is a relaxed natural power transfer from the forearms. It is what I was trying to get to in the past when I posted about heavy forearms. Organ and synths you play with your fingers because actions are so light.

 

That was probably confusing also. Once you do it you know it. You have to be relaxed to move quickly. You use the weight of the forearm to generate power and for dynamic control. Same principles used in popping someone upside the head with a good backfist.

[Joe Muscara]

I tend to think the term "double rotation" is confusing. I'm not sure what else to call it, though.

[16251]

There is a thread in this forum just put up about a great organ solo from TOP. You can see him using this rotation method when he's soloing.

[Ken Beaumont]

It's a variation of the royal wave

 

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[klezman]

The term "relaxed" is a tough one as well. I'd describe it more as "absence of isometrics". This is what all of the methodology in the video is striving toward I think. I had one piano teacher (who I should have listened to more closely) also use the "throwing a punch" analogy but in context of aiming for the key bed but definitely not past it. When I am struggling to be heard (or sight reading something new in front a crowd), I notice myself pushing against the keybed which does nothing but tighten me up. In my case the difference I feel between playing correctly and incorrectly is dramatic. You'd think it would be easier to play "correctly" all of the time but its such a subtle coordination, I can't always consciously find it. And the old muscle memory is still lurking to trip me up. In my case, I'm consistently able to get there during practice now which wasn't the case when I took my 20 year hiatus.

[Jazz+]

I have no doubts about how beneficial rotation can be (in cases where rotating from side to side can help to lead directly towards the next notes eg. in Alberti bass). What I question is the reason for wanting to believe the forearm rotates back and forth within a fast scale- when the notes go in a single direction. Do we believe the idea that the arm can not only rotate into the note, but rotate back to prepare for the next note.

[Michelle ggurl]

This is great, Jazz+, thanks for posting. My teacher when I was a teenager showed me this. I think it's the reason why playing piano helps my tendonitis if I start getting a flare up from too much yard work or typing on the computer. The former is just demanding on a macro level, the former seems to trigger that "finger isolation" he speaks of. So playing piano seems to alleviate that.

 

Klezman, I relate to what you're saying about needing to feel the release of the keys. I think the fact that I just can't feel that comfortably on a lot of digital piano actions is why I can't tolerate some of them. Never, ever a problem on acoustic.

 

Also, Jazz+, regarding the double rotation, that really isn't how my teacher presented it to me. In terms of scales, he encouraged the use of a larger, rolling motion from thumb to outer fingers and back.

[Michelle ggurl]

OK, you know, I had to go try this and see what it is I am doing ... and the way the lady in the second video explains and shows the "double rotation," yeah, it is like that for me.

 

BTW I don't think Hanon needs to be discounted straight away. I still use it and also have some of my students use it. I tell them, though, that if their version of Hanon has the original advice in the front of the book about lifting fingers high and yadda yadda yadda, completely disregard it. One of my recent students got a version of the Hanon book and it doesn't even have that preramble in it (thankfully, good call, editor). One can still warm up with Hanon and use this better scale technique in doing so. That's how I was taught ... I'm not a technical wizard by any means, but I feel, given other injury issues I've had with computers, etc, thankfully this is one thing I got right as a result of some decent training ...

[Bobadohshe]

This vid is a real eye opener. Thanks for sharing.

[Michelle ggurl]

I'm sorry for keeping posting, but I keep thinking about this ... about the questions as to how "double rotation" is possible or actually happening when playing faster passages.

 

Warning ... highly personal and subjective attempt at analysis:

 

You know how the guy in the first video touches on the "structure" of the hand and speaks of the bones bearing the weight (perhaps not his words, though he speaks of the bones in the fingers) of the contact of fingers with the keys? Well, it seems to me, the rotation is an extension of that. If you can rest the finger on the key and have your arm, shoulder, even back, essentially transferring the energy to your playing, rather than pushing into the key with just your finger -- then you tend to pivot on the key. The movement from key to key feels like a lot of little "pivots" to me, but it seems to me that it feels exactly like what the woman in the second video is talking about.

 

I've recently been doing Alexander Technique training for chronic-injury relief for some time. It's worked wonders for me (EDIT: this is not a piano technique, it is a general body mechanics treatment). One thing my teacher says is, "the body naturally does what feels good" in terms of movement. So I'm guessing that many, if not most, of you who have had some form of formal piano training, had a teacher address how to transfer weight to the keys and not hold tension. If so, I'm guessing you're probably already doing this rotating already, then, even if no one ever even called it that for you. What do you think?

 

 

[Jazz+]

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[Emeritus]

I thank Jazz+ for introducing me to the short video clip of Golandsky illustrating rotation techniques. I viewed other short clips of Golandsky teaching the Taubman approach, and then found the site:

 

http://www.taubman-tapes.com/Home.html

 

The offer is for a two DVD set of lectures/demonstrations of the Taubman technique at a price of $575. I gather that these techniques have been used by many who suffer physical discomfort in playing piano or who are recovering from injury. My question is to what extent they would be beneficial in improving technique/facility/velocity generally. And further to what extent could these techniques be implemented without a teacher overseeing every move. My interest is in playing jazz with better facility (and some Bach). I note that the Taubman site shows endorsements by Bill Charlap and Danilo Perez. Have any found these DVDs to be particularly useful?

 

 

[Jazz+]

I would not buy those dvds, I think they are over priced.

[Michelle ggurl]

Great post, Jazz+. "Orange" you glad you found that?

[Jazz+]

The professor in the video in the original post writes:

 

"Yes, that is the great question. As you probably know, Taubman/Golandsky et al refer to this as the preparatory swing. I would say that such a motion exists at slower tempos (I was just practicing Scarlatti a minute ago and definitely used prep swings in LH 8th notes) but vanishes progressively as it speeds up. However, I do believe that using the swing at slower speeds gives the pianist an advantage at faster speeds because (and this is just my theory) the balance and natural motion of the slower rotation will cause the pianist to discover the most balanced and natural way of playing faster. the habit transfers even if the exact motion doesn't. I also notice that slow practicing of fast passages with at least a little prep swing rotation does help them when they get back to speed. The main thing, in my opinion, is to avoid the extremes of finger isolation and independence, which is the root of all kinds of evil.

 

At the end of the day, talking about complex physical motion is difficult, ain't it?

 

Happy practicing,

 

JJM "