"In the Key of"

[drawback]

SHA is in G. Dreams is in C. Do you people actually need to apply theory to this stuff?

[MuzikTeechur]

SHA is in G. Dreams is in C. Do you people actually need to apply theory to this stuff?

 

Only when trying to make a point using Theory, which is essentially useless with some folks.

 

And, yes, I didn't account for the "boo-hoo-hoo" line. Borrowed Eb, Borrowed F, G. Not found in classical theory but a common device nonetheless. However, even THAT resolves to G!

Honestly, this is just stupid.

 

 

[Al Coda]

However, even THAT resolves to G!

Honestly, this is just stupid.

 

 

This !

 

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

And, yes, I didn't account for the "boo-hoo-hoo" line. Borrowed Eb, Borrowed F, G. Not found in classical theory but a common device nonetheless. However, even THAT resolves to G!

How do the boo-hoo-hoo chords resolve to a G? The chords are F, C, D. (But I guess we agree that it sounds like it's resolving to the tonic!)

[kanker.]

SHA is in G. Dreams is in C. Do you people actually need to apply theory to this stuff?

 

Only when trying to make a point using Theory, which is essentially useless with some folks.

 

And, yes, I didn't account for the "boo-hoo-hoo" line. Borrowed Eb, Borrowed F, G. Not found in classical theory but a common device nonetheless. However, even THAT resolves to G!

Honestly, this is just stupid.

 

Like AnotherScott said, that resolves to a D - F C D....Are you sure you're in the right key to begin with?

[iLaw]

SHA? I agree with those who get a different feel from the verses than from the solos. If I had to pick a single key (which I don't; lots of songs have wandering tonal centers), I'd pick G (making the progression V-IV-I)

 

But those who like D (sorta including me in the verses) have solid theory to back them up. Rock music loves plagal cadences (IV-I), and their extensions, secondary subdominants (IV/IV). Think of how often rock tunes string secondary subdominants, e.g. Bb-F-C-G (I think the first chord progression I learned to strum on a guitar was D-A-E!).

 

So if you're hearing the verse as I - IV/IV - IV in D, you're in good company.

 

Larry.

 

[kanker.]

Think of how often rock tunes string secondary subdominants, e.g. Bb-F-C-G

Yeah, I wonder what key folks would put Hey Joe in?

[Al Coda]

Like AnotherScott said, that resolves to a D - F C D....Are you sure you're in the right key to begin with?

 

I think it´s all a matter of notation too.

If it´s the easiest to notate the song in G (1 sharp only) and using 1 natural somewhere in the middle, then go back to 1 sharp, it´s notated in the key of G and easiest to read.

 

If it were in D, you´d notate 2 sharps at the beginning and would have to use more naturals in between.

 

So, if it works w/ 1 sharp at the beginning, for me it´s in G.

If there are other parts in the song going to a different key (not unusual at all),- it doesn´t mean it´s not in G,- when it goes back to the key of G later.

 

I don´t understand why this needs 4 pages of a thread.

 

A.C.

[iLaw]

I don´t understand why this needs 4 pages of a thread.

 

A.C.

Because the debate is over something more subtle than what key signature to use. If that were the criterion we could just write it in C; no more accidentals than writing it G or D, given the chord progression.

 

But nobody has suggested that the song is in C, and it obviously isn't. What's being debated is aural; it's tonal centers, which are trickier, and debatable. It's the difference in feel between a cadence and a half cadence.

 

What's amazing about this forum is that it is one of the few places I've ever found outside of music school where Sweet Home Alabama is susceptible to Shenkerian analysis.

 

Larry.

 

[allan_evett]

.....

Because the debate is over something more subtle than what key signature to use.....

 

.....What's being debated is aural; it's tonal centers, which are trickier, and debatable.

 

Well said, Larry. That statement could, and hopefully will, end the SHA part of this discussion....

[CEB]

Freebird is in G.

[allan_evett]

Freebird is in G.

 

[Floyd Tatum]

I'm with those that hear SHA in D. I've never played the song, but I've heard it on the radio enough times over the last 30 years or however long it's been around, to hear that the tonal center is D. I could see putting the key sig as either G or D. Personally, I think I'd prefer D, with flatted seventh where appropriate. Think of it as being in the blues idiom. If you have a Blues in Bb, you're most likely to have it resolve to a Bb7. Doesn't mean you transcribe it with a key signature of Eb. You put the key sig as Bb, and flat the 7th's where appropriate.

 

On the other hand...

 

Maybe this is the aural equivalent of one of those trick images like The Spinning Dancer

 

Some people see her spinning left; some spinning right. You can force yourself to see her spinning the other way for a minute, but eventually you come back to your first impression.

 

I've tried to hear SHA as having a tonal centre of G, but for me, it doesn't feel 'right' unless I hear it as being in D.

 

 

[mikecorbett]

I guess some don't recognize what a tonic sounds like. Using ears, Sweet Home Alabama clearly and definitely sounds: V IV I

 

Too much jazz will have that effect on ya. Songs clearly in D. I challenge you to play a few bars of the chord sequence of SHA, then go into another song in D. It sounds the same. Now try it again from the top, but this time going into another song in the key of G, it cleeeeeearly sounds like a modulation in this context. Makings of a good YouTube video for someone right here...

[CEB]

This is sounding cool. I have my submission idea for next year.

 

I am going to weave Sweet Home Alabama within Pachelbel's Canon in D major.

[Floyd Tatum]

I guess some don't recognize what a tonic sounds like. Using ears, Sweet Home Alabama clearly and definitely sounds: V IV I

Too much jazz will have that effect on ya. Songs clearly in D.

I play jazz primarily, I have plenty of music education, and I can hear what a tonic sounds like. However, this particular piece is obviously in the 'grey area'. Mike Corbett, I agree with you that it's in D. To me, it sounds like I bVII IV.

 

Here's a theory to bolster my opinion:

 

The main melody notes are F#, E, and D. Although, admittedly, the singer 'blue notes' the F#, making it sound a bit like an F. However, the backup singers are clearly singing an F# in that D chord.

 

So, main melody notes: F#, E, and D. In key of D, those are scale tones 3, 2, and 1 - strong melody notes in the key of D. In G, those melody notes are scale tones (maj)7, 6, and 5 - not as strong as 3, 2, and 1 in defining the tonal centre, in my opinion.

 

Besides which, if we assume G as the tonal centre, then that F# maj7th scale tone suggests the chord G MAJ 7 as the tonal centre. I don't think so, not in a blues-rock tune like SHA.

 

But, like I said, I think this is like the spinning girl. I can accept that some people hear it differently from me. As mynameisdanno mentioned, even Al Kooper and Ed King couldn't agree (Al Kooper thought it was in D).

 

I think I'd take Al Kooper's side, though: Al Kooper, excellent blues keyboardist, founder of Blood Sweat and Tears, vs. Ed King, guitar player in Lynard Skynard. For me, winner is Al Kooper, even though Ed King co-wrote SHA.

 

[Cygnus64]

 

I don´t understand why this needs 4 pages of a thread.

 

A.C.

 

Because so many people are wrong.

 

SHA= D. Absolutely, positively. Accept no substitutes.

 

The song does not "resolve" to G, because it does not resolve, period. "Sweet Home Alabama" is 4 measures (in 2). Therefore, the resolution would be on measure 5. The G chord comes on "Bam"- measure 3. That's not the resolution, it's the middle of the phrase. G Chord= IV Chord. Also: the guitar lick after SWH (ABDEDBA) is an implied V (or an Asus2sus4, but enough to say "dominant"). It's what gives the song any tonality at all. Without that lil lick, one could argue (to a very, very geeky college theory prof) that the song is atonal, and theoretically they would be correct.

 

If the song was in G, the lyrics would be like this:

 

In Birmingham they love the

governor

Now we all did what we could

do

Now Watergate does not

bother me

Does your conscience bother

you?

 

 

That just doesn't make any sense.

[kanker.]

On the other hand...

 

Maybe this is the aural equivalent of one of those trick images like The Spinning Dancer

Indeed. Pretty good analogy if you ask me

[Floyd Tatum]

On the other hand...

 

Maybe this is the aural equivalent of one of those trick images like The Spinning Dancer

Indeed. Pretty good analogy if you ask me

thanks, Kevin

 

By the way, if you went to that Spinning Dancer site, and could only see her dancing in one direction (like me), then check out this page that proves it's possible to see her spin in either direction (using a cheat, that is!):

 

Spinning Dancer De-Mystified

[psr220]

I thought it was the first/last/coolest chord in the progression. SHA is like D Delorean not G Fallopian and resolves on an Augminished9 with a #4 AND a b5 in the same octane.

[mikecorbett]

I thought it was the first/last/coolest chord in the progression. SHA is like D Delorean not G Fallopian and resolves on an Augminished9 with a #4 AND a b5 in the same octane.

 

You better scram, jazz police are round here all the time

[AnotherScott]

I challenge you to play a few bars of the chord sequence of SHA, then go into another song in D. It sounds the same. Now try it again from the top, but this time going into another song in the key of G, it cleeeeeearly sounds like a modulation in this context.

 

The song does not "resolve" to G, because it does not resolve, period. "Sweet Home Alabama" is 4 measures (in 2). Therefore, the resolution would be on measure 5. The G chord comes on "Bam"- measure 3. That's not the resolution, it's the middle of the phrase.

 

Although I hear it in D, neither of those arguments is persuasive. Mike, segue from SHA into Werewolves. It will sound like a modulation only if you are among those who hear SHA in D, so it's a kind of circular argument. Cyg, if SHA's structure being in 4 measures means that it cannot be in the key that starts measure 3, then Werewolves could not be in G.

[JeffLearman]

I did a quick Google search on the sheet music. First one that came up - well, look at that Key signature! Key of G. Amazing. Also, I notice that they didn't call it "G Ionian".

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/images/productimages/mtd/MN0044823.gif

That's the KEY SIGNATURE. Anyone who can't distinguish the key from the key signature shouldn't be warping young minds! :wink:

[Cygnus64]

Cyg, if SHA's structure being in 4 measures means that it cannot be in the key that starts measure 3, then Werewolves could not be in G.

 

I sez: SHA and Werewolves are exact opposites. SHA and Baba O Riley are the same.

 

SHA has a V chord (of sorts). It's just quick. It's basically a pickup to the second phrase but it's functioning as a V chord. The chords are irrelevant, it's how they function that matters. Let's say that SHA, Werewolves and Baba are all in 2:

 

In Werewolves, the 3rd measure functions as a Tonic. The first two measures function as a V (with a sus4 and other goodies). In the grand scheme of things, Werewolves only has two chords function-wise: V and I. The first two measures could be considered V with passing tones etc, the actual chords don't matter. The landing is on measure 3, that's Tonic.

 

SHA and Baba are opposite of Werewolves: the first chord of each functions as a Tonic. What comes in measure 3 is a subdominant purgatory. SHA eventually turns into an implied V at the end of measure 4. Baba takes a long time to get back to tonic, but it does at "Sally, take my hand".

[Cygnus64]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/sweet.jpg

[Cygnus64]

If the song was in G, it would be something like this:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/sweeting-1.jpg

[CEB]

That's right!

 

Sweet Home Alabama is in D.

 

Freebird is in G!

 

Now that that is settled. Should Freebird be the new national Anthem?

[AnotherScott]

I think that the "passing 5" argument for Sweet Home Alabama is week... first, the A notes that you marked are not consistently there by any means; and second, if they happened to do a version where they never hit those notes on that beat (essentially just hanging on the G or going back to the C every time), it would have no impact on what key the song is in (or what key people would "feel" it was in), so I think it's a red herring.

 

Baba O' Reily's middle chord is V not vii, but I guess that's moot since you consider the middle chord of the sequence unimportant for these purposes. But I don't get what you mean about taking a long time to get back to the tonic, all the way to Sally... how is that different from the beginning of practically every other line of the song? It's coming from a V instead of a IV, but that doesn't make the other occurrences not tonics as well; and if they had come out of the bridge by going V-IV-I instead of V-I, it wouldn't have any impact on your perception of the key of the song or of Sally still being a return to the tonic.

[Cygnus64]

I think that the "passing 5" argument for Sweet Home Alabama is week... first, the A notes that you marked are not consistently there by any means;

 

It doesn't matter. One time is all that's needed. It implies, very clearly, that it functions as a V of sorts. So does the lick. It all implies that it is pre-resolution.

 

Baba O' Reily's middle chord is V

 

It's not. There is a C in the bass but the synth sound has F. The synth would have to have E to make it a real V. It's an inverted I chord (without a 3rd perhaps).

 

But I don't get what you mean about taking a long time to get back to the tonic, all the way to Sally... how is that different from the beginning of practically every other line of the song?

 

(slight rambling ahead). In college I was getting an F in theory because I was a stoner and didn't go to class. The prof had us write an essay on "What is atonality", and this was my essay word for word:

 

"Atonal music doesn't have a V chord, real or implied". He passed me.

 

[/rambling] Baba O Riley doesn't have a functioning dominant V chord until "Wasteland". "Sally" is the whole song, tonality-wise. Until then, that "Don't Cry" section could be thought of as a modulation to the key of C. It's not, it's a setup. We have no idea what key the song is in until "wasteland". Everything before that could be technically called "atonal": if the song ended on "Teenage", it wouldn't be in any key. My theory prof would be proud of me.

[AnotherScott]

I think that the "passing 5" argument for Sweet Home Alabama is week... first, the A notes that you marked are not consistently there by any means;

 

It doesn't matter. One time is all that's needed.

So if they do it once, the whole song is in D, and if they don't do it at all, you would say the song is atonal? What if they do different things in different defined sections of the song? i.e. the chorus "pickup" chord is a C, not an A... would you suggest that that puts the chorus in a different key from the verses (or make the chorus atonal)?

 

Baba O' Reily's middle chord is V

 

It's not. There is a C in the bass but the synth sound has F.

The piano and guitar are playing the C chord.

 

If they did a mix without the synth track, would that change your perception of the chord progression or the key?

 

Baba O Riley doesn't have a functioning dominant V chord until "Wasteland". "Sally" is the whole song, tonality-wise. Until then, that "Don't Cry" section could be thought of as a modulation to the key of C. It's not, it's a setup.

It could just as easily have led to a modulation of one sort or another. What if they transitioned to G on the word "Sally"? (Not an entirely uncommon device.) Would everything up to that point no longer be in the key of F?

 

We have no idea what key the song is in until "wasteland".

As I said, music doesn't have to follow rules, but music theory is supposed to make it easier to communicate about it. Do you think it would be common to listen to the first 2.5 minutes of Baba (right up to Sally), and have no idea what key the song is in, or consider it to be atonal? I'm beginning to think that if music theory can lead you that far astray, it may not be serving its purpose, if it becomes an impediment rather than an aid to the perception of the music!