"In the Key of"

[torhu]

In this video, Lynyrd Skynyrd ends Sweet Home Alabama with a G chord that is played for over a minute:

 

Which suggests to me that they see G as being the tonic. And that sounds right to my ears. Some of the clues the we normally use to decide on the key is missing, though. The melody is based on G major, but it mostly uses the upper half of the scale (C-F#), never emphasising the G. It's kind of hanging in the air all the way through.

[CEB]

We end it on the G with me playing the opening riff of Dixie.

[Outkaster]

Why don't you take a deep breath? Count to X or something. It's not always about gear here, and actually, I find these other discussions a bit refreshing. Talking about music vs. gear, y'know?

 

P.S. For me, this thread is only two pages. Doesn't seem as bad that way.

 

I'm fine man, I know it's not all about gear, I just think people over think a lot of things. I guess our experiences are different. Personally I can read music myself but my instincts and ear take care of the rest.

[Joe Muscara]

 

Oh sure, we over analyze a lot of stuff here, music, gear, what's the tonic, can anyone make a clone outkaster likes, etc.

 

I aspire to let my ears guide me. It comes sometimes, not as much as I'd like, though. It'll come.

[BluMunk]

Nashville cats would chart it in C, because that's how they chart stuff. It works well for country music, where even when playing in a minor key, the enharmonic major is right there waiting (and often resolved to).

 

Interesting . . . so that style would involve a key signature with no sharps or flats (for a song in D dorian)? I imagine, though, that if I sat in to play for that tune, that they would still say the song was in "D" and not in "C" though, right?

[AnotherScott]

Don't confuse key and mode. The former is absolute

 

As has been mentioned, not necessarily, as is the case with Sweet Home Alabama (discussed at length in old threads), where some people are convinced it's in D and some are convinced it's in G, and like a Rubin Vase, both answers can be right, as determined by your own perception of the elements. Supposedly, even the people making the record did not agree on what key it was in. (I hear the verses in D, and the guitar lead sections in G, even though the underlying chords never change... and I remember seeing a live version where the piano solo at the start seems to start in D but changes to G by the end...)

 

And the "correct" answer does not depend on which last chord the band plays at the end of the song... there's no reason they couldn't alter that last chord each night, it wouldn't change the key of what you'd be listening to for the previous x minutes... nor is there a law that you must end a song on the tonic... although it's unusual, some songs with unambiguous keys do end on a chord that is not the key of the song. And what do you do if the song fades? ;-)

 

But music is music, and doesn't have to conform to any rules. Assignment of key signatures is only for our academic convenience.

[MuzikTeechur]

I just read through most of the Sweet Home Alabama stuff in this thread.

Any first-year Theory student would hit this one out of the park. If there is anyone with any formal musical training that would make an argument for it being in the key of "D", I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to know your credentials because mail-order music school clearly did not work out for you.

 

The song is clearly in G. Here's why:

 

The chord structure:

D - C - G is V-VI-I all the way through. If it were in D, someone needs to explain the constant use of C major which does not appear in the D scale except as a borrowed chord or a temporary change of key ("key area"), and then rarely.

Virtually no C#'s in the song, and certainly none as part of the melody.

 

No A7 (V chord in D major)

 

It is a BIG, FAT D, C, G all the freaking way through, which are the Primary Chords in the key of G. Just because it starts on D, does not mean it is in D!

 

I did a quick Google search on the sheet music. First one that came up - well, look at that Key signature! Key of G. Amazing. Also, I notice that they didn't call it "G Ionian".

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/images/productimages/mtd/MN0044823.gif

 

[Joe Muscara]

The chord structure:

D - C - G is V-VI-I all the way through.

I don't normally read posts about SHA, but I noticed this. I believe you have a typo there, Lonnie. Unless the song briefly goes to Eb.

[CEB]

Same chords as Can't You See, It is also in D. :D

[allan_evett]

Thinking from a 'theory POV, I've always thought of it in D Mixolydian. Many bands with which I've played SHA end it on the D chord. With those that have chosen the G chord ending, it sounds to me like a song ending on the IV - which is a viable, even refreshing alternative to the I (Bruce Hornsby uses it on a couple of tunes very effectively).

But that's how I hear it. The G major argument is also valid; seems to be one of those grey areas of music theory interpretation, of which there are several.

[Griffinator]

Just throwing this out there...

 

I jammed once with a blues guitarist who didn't know scales and modes the way I do. One particular piece I fired up for him to vamp over was in D harmonic minor (chord progression was vi-IV-V-III in proper "key of F" expression) and he struggled to make sense of the sharpened 7th on the III. So I reworded it - told him to play in G blues pentatonic(G-Bb-C-C#-D-F) - and it all fell together for him.

 

Nothing wrong with miss-called keys if it helps the player makes sense of it in the end.

[CEB]

The chord structure:

D - C - G is V-VI-I all the way through.

I don't normally read posts about SHA, but I noticed this. I believe you have a typo there, Lonnie. Unless the song briefly goes to Eb.

 

No it don't go to Eb. But it does go to F then C then resolves on the D. :D

[Jazz+]

I guess some don't recognize what a tonic sounds like. Using ears, Sweet Home Alabama clearly and definitely sounds: V IV I

[AnotherScott]

The song is clearly in G. Here's why:

 

The chord structure:

D - C - G is V-[iV]-I all the way through. If it were in D, someone needs to explain the constant use of C major

There are plenty of popular songs that make lots of use of the chord that is one whole step down from the tonic. Norwegian Wood being a famous example (though they had done it earlier in You've Got to Hide Your Love Away).

 

(Also, the Sweet Home Alabama chord progression is the same as the primary chord progression of Won't Get Fooled Again. I assume you agree that that is in A, not D!)

[AnotherScott]

I guess some don't recognize what a tonic sounds like. Using ears, Sweet Home Alabama clearly and definitely sounds: V IV I

DIfferent ears can hear it differently, even if they indeed recognize a tonic. Hearing the D as the tonic makes the G a "comma" in the phrase instead of a "period."

 

I think it may be a matter of whether your sense of key is being derived more from the melody or from the chords. If you hear it in D, the melody starts on the major third and is centered around the tonic. If you hear it in G, the melody more unusually starts on the major 7th and centers around the fifth.

[Lone Stranger]

When I hear "Werewolves of London" I hear it in G. Even before the song from Kid Rock came out I would connect "Werewolves of London" with "Sweet Home Alabama" in my mind.

[allan_evett]

I guess some don't recognize what a tonic sounds like. Using ears, Sweet Home Alabama clearly and definitely sounds: V IV I

DIfferent ears can hear it differently.....

 

Thanks, Scott. Wondered, for a second there, if perhaps I didn't recognize the sound of a tonic . If the guy with whom I studied theory, jazz composition, and orchestration felt that there are grey areas of theory interpretation (i.e., modal considerations, and having 'different ears'), then that reinforces my point just fine. Bill Russo was a heavyweight mentor; being Stan Kenton's trombonist and co-arranger at 18 just might have contributed to that

[allan_evett]

When I hear "Werewolves of London" I hear it in G. Even before the song from Kid Rock came out I would connect "Werewolves of London" with "Sweet Home Alabama" in my mind.

 

Ok, now this is interesting. I hear "Werewolves of London" in G; the lyric, and arrangement seem to 'drive down' to a G resolution. Whereas, "Sweet Home Alabama" 'centers' on D, for me. Apparently the same ears can hear a common chord progression as having two different tonal centers, depending on the piece. Meanwhile different ears might hear the same tonal center between two different pieces, or the opposite tonal centers from what another person hears. In other words: po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

 

This discussion reminds me of another 'lightbulb' joke. Q: How many producers does it take to change a lightbulb ? A: I don't know. What do you think ?.

[AnotherScott]

I hear "Werewolves of London" in G; the lyric, and arrangement seem to 'drive down' to a G resolution. Whereas, "Sweet Home Alabama" 'centers' on D, for me. Apparently the same ears can hear a common chord progression as having two different tonal centers, depending on the piece.

I hear them the same way you do. Even though the chords are basically the same in those two songs, the melody takes you somewhere else. Or at least it can.

 

(The reason I say "basically" is that Werewolves actually has the extra "pickup" chords... but you could play it without them and it would still be recognizable as Werewolves.)

[kanker.]

I hear "Werewolves of London" in G; the lyric, and arrangement seem to 'drive down' to a G resolution. Whereas, "Sweet Home Alabama" 'centers' on D, for me. Apparently the same ears can hear a common chord progression as having two different tonal centers, depending on the piece.

I hear them the same way you do. Even though the chords are basically the same in those two songs, the melody takes you somewhere else. Or at least it can.

 

(The reason I say "basically" is that Werewolves actually has the extra "pickup" chords... but you could play it without them and it would still be recognizable as Werewolves.)

Not only is it the vocal melody, but the instrumental melodic turnaround to the D (A B D E D B A B D D) screams D. At the same time there is a lot of melodic pull to G in other guitar and piano parts

 

I'd just call it one big deceptive cadence and be done with it. SHA is a great example to me of the non-existence of chords. You can argue all day about the chords and the key centers, but the various melodic pulls that go on in that song are way above the ability of theory to encapsulate in a single key center or to contain in static chords. SHA is a simple bit of genius in that regard, IMO.

[Joe Muscara]

You mean you actually like it, or you just appreciate it technically?

[CEB]

Damn straight! Al Kooper and The Honkettes were genius incarnate.

 

 

[Michelle ggurl]

Re: SHA, I wonder if someone came up with the chords (V IV I, at least if definitely sounds like that movement to me) and someone else came up with the melody/phrasing. A lot of people try to analyze Nirvana chord progressions and conclude, in polarized camps, that it's either genius or Cobain didn't know what the hell he was doing. It's rock 'n' roll, woot! I would think of this as G but I don't play this song for fun or profit, so I'd say, if you do, you know, do whatever works. (well, ok, I went to the piano and played some if it just now, and it definitely feels like a "G" thing to me ...)

 

 

[jeff7b9]

but the quick F - C is pretty clearly a bVII- IV you can hear the F chord as a bVII chord relative to the tonic

 

I hate that song passionately, but it is a 5-4-1 progression in G

 

- people just get confused because they have (probably) played music that starts on the 1 chord in every song.

[mynameisdanno]

I've been staying out of this discussion since I was the one who instigated it last time around, but I'm with kanker, AnotherScott, and allan_evett (I guess we all got our mail-order music diplomas from the same place). For me, Werewolves is in G, and SHA is in D mixolydian (even if half the players in the session couldn't pronounce mixolydian).

 

Why? It's all about the melodies, vocal and instrumental. There are plenty of other I-bVII-IV progressions in rock - it's not like it's unheard of.

 

The real lesson here is that there's more than one perfectly valid way to hear it, a fine point on the nature of music vs music theory. As AnotherScott pointed out, Al Kooper and Ed King couldn't even agree what key it was in at the session.

 

"Sweet Home Alabama" might have to join Politics and Religion if we're not careful!

[kanker.]

You mean you actually like it, or you just appreciate it technically?

Yes

[kanker.]

You mean you actually like it, or you just appreciate it technically?

Or not

[kanker.]

You mean you actually like it, or you just appreciate it technically?

...but Skynryd freaking rocked

[AnotherScott]

people just get confused because they have (probably) played music that starts on the 1 chord in every song.

Nah. Starting on something other than 1 is not at all inherently deceptive. I can give plenty of examples of songs that don't start on the 1 that I'm quite sure would yield no dispute here.

 

But here's another tricky one... What key do people say Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" is in? (If I remember correctly, the song consists of nothing except Fmaj7 and G6, with another nebulous tonic...)

[kanker.]

But here's another tricky one... What key do people say Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" is in? (If I remember correctly, the song consists of nothing except Fmaj7 and G6, with another nebulous tonic...)

The changes in the guitar solo release so much of the tension built by the nebulousness of the verge/chorus changes. Another really cool use of harmony.