Look what Dave Ferris brought

[16251]

They're just gouging the local musician who aren't famous and have to spend +$4000 to be hip. They're a great gigging keyboard! Also, my point about updating hardware also valid. You'd think if you spend all that money, you should be confident that in 4 years all you have to do is update latest sounds to keep current. Unfortunately, they do a redesign and the newest samples will only work the latest hardware.

 

Hey, but all you people spending all that cash, good for you...they're great keyboards. Just eat less food or live in cheaper pad so you can afford the red beast.

"Gouging" assumes they're running up the price to make a huge profit. I don't have the data to conclude that this is true. Do you?

 

Your argument that the hardware should be software/sounds upgradable in four years is laughable. People around here bitch when Yamaha or Roland don't come out with a completely new board every two years. What hardware boards have been upgradable via software after four years? I can think of one. The Nord Electro 1 & 2. It seems to me that Nord's keyboards have a longer support life than many others. While bugs persist in others, Nord issues software updates all the time. They are still shipping updates for boards they first shipped in 2009 and 2010, at least.

I understand that some samples are backward compatible but it's still true that some of their newer models can handle larger samples which you can't load in older models.

 

I pulled 4 years out of hat. My point is that it's quite expensive if they change hardware every 2 years and players feel like they must have it, which is also tied to my comment about samples.

 

Players do get mad when new models don't come out but at $2000-2500 it's not as expensive.

 

The electros are cheaper but from what I know they don't handle the longer stage/NPPiano samples and only do one sound at a time and action is not as good.

 

I'll confess that I'm not as versed as you Norder's but I have researched cause I really thought I wanted one. But in the end I decided using my laptop with my FP4. It's cheaper, better sounding, and better playing.

 

I not playing where I need to be switching sounds. I'm mostly using piano or EP.

 

I know it's fun to dump on me but part of my can't understand why you'all don't think that Nord is overpriced. Hey, I also think $35,000 for a new car is also quite expensive.

 

But I'm glad that some people are making some serious cash out there. Good for you.

[Outkaster]

Nice Playing Dave.

[Joe Muscara]

And yet somehow Nord has become the industry standard for gigging boards. Even Benmont and Medeski are using them.

Interesting... I've never seen Benmont use anything but his piano, Hammond, Wurli... Not arguing, just curious...

 

What does he use Nord for (Hammond, Wurli, both?)

I've seen pics of him using a Nord when he's sitting in with other bands with his own gear. I've also seen Chuck Leavell use a Nord for rehearsals and backstage jams with the Stones.

 

I understand that some samples are backward compatible but it's still true that some of their newer models can handle larger samples which you can't load in older models.

 

I pulled 4 years out of hat. My point is that it's quite expensive if they change hardware every 2 years and players feel like they must have it, which is also tied to my comment about samples.

 

Players do get mad when new models don't come out but at $2000-2500 it's not as expensive.

 

The electros are cheaper but from what I know they don't handle the longer stage/NPPiano samples and only do one sound at a time and action is not as good.

 

I'll confess that I'm not as versed as you Norder's but I have researched cause I really thought I wanted one. But in the end I decided using my laptop with my FP4. It's cheaper, better sounding, and better playing.

 

I not playing where I need to be switching sounds. I'm mostly using piano or EP.

 

I know it's fun to dump on me but part of my can't understand why you'all don't think that Nord is overpriced. Hey, I also think $35,000 for a new car is also quite expensive.

 

But I'm glad that some people are making some serious cash out there. Good for you.

You don't seem to realize that memory costs are expensive for smaller manufacturers like this. I don't think Nord limits the amount of memory just to jack with us. So yeah, the Stage 2 has more memory than the Stage EX, which had more than the Stage, which had more than the Electro 1 & 2. Yet, all of these products have a long playable life. A person's choice to buy the latest gear before their old gear is actually obsolete is their choice.

 

Look, I'm not saying Nord is or isn't overpriced. I haven't bought a new Nord since I bought my Electro 2 (I also have the NE2r, but I bought that used). I think I'd like some of their new boards, but I can't justify spending the money when I already own gear that works for me. I think "overpriced" is a funny word, because it implies they are charging too much. But I think it's reasonable for a company to charge what it needs to in order to stay in business. I don't know if Nord is making a killer profit, but I doubt it. They're a boutique manufacturer, and everything is custom made, they custom adjust the keybeds themselves, and assemble them by hand. That's probably not cheap.

 

The Mojo was out before they came out with the C2D, yet the C2D is quite a bit more. I would think that the C2D would have been priced more competitively if they could have. Or, maybe you're right, and they priced it based on where the rest of their market was including the C2.

[J. Dan]

I've always been amused when somebody says something is overpriced. If it were really overpriced, the company would go out of business because nobody would be willing to pay the price. Profit has nothing to do with it - it's economics, charge what people will pay. Just because it's not worth the price for one person doesn't mean it's not worth the price for somebody else. Different people place different value on different things, and if a product suits their needs and they think the price is fair, they'll pay it. If not enough people are willing to pay the price and the product has to be discontinued or the company goes out of business, THEN it was overpriced.

 

In a market with competition, there can be no such thing as gouging. Gouging is when a person has no choice but to buy that product, it's a product they must have, and they jack up the price. For instance, if a gas station is in the middle of the desert, there are no other gas stations for 100 miles, and they triple the price...that's gouging. If there's another gas station in a mile, it's not gouging because you can just go to the next one - you have a choice.

[Ken Beaumont]

I learned that sometime ago over a thread I started about some pedal controllers being too expensive, they went for $2k. For me that was ridiculous for a midi controller. But I soon learned there were several people who who wanted a full set of pedals and thought it was worth it. So the message for me was if there are enough people who will pay it to make it profitable, then its worth it. Not to me, but many don't share my views.

[Bill H.]

Coming from another keyboard player, it's absolutely jaw-dropping to witness someone just casually sit down and rip something off like that. Amazing stuff Dave and congratulations Menno on your new keyboard

[Joe Muscara]

Coming from another keyboard player, it's absolutely jaw-dropping to witness someone just casually sit down and rip something off like that.

While wearing sunglasses!

[16251]

I've always been amused when somebody says something is overpriced. If it were really overpriced, the company would go out of business because nobody would be willing to pay the price. Profit has nothing to do with it - it's economics, charge what people will pay. Just because it's not worth the price for one person doesn't mean it's not worth the price for somebody else. Different people place different value on different things, and if a product suits their needs and they think the price is fair, they'll pay it. If not enough people are willing to pay the price and the product has to be discontinued or the company goes out of business, THEN it was overpriced.

 

In a market with competition, there can be no such thing as gouging. Gouging is when a person has no choice but to buy that product, it's a product they must have, and they jack up the price. For instance, if a gas station is in the middle of the desert, there are no other gas stations for 100 miles, and they triple the price...that's gouging. If there's another gas station in a mile, it's not gouging because you can just go to the next one - you have a choice.

fair enough - not overpriced - just expensive.

[Jim Alfredson]

I've always been amused when somebody says something is overpriced.

 

I think what he's saying is that it's overpriced for his needs. And I agree with him in this instance. I'm not interested in buying one myself, but that doesn't mean they are worthless or someone else shouldn't or that you or anyone else shouldn't enjoy them.

 

We all weigh cost vs performance when we buy these instruments, which are nothing more than compromises of having the real thing (piano, organ, etc.) So it comes down to how it's going to be used vs what it can actually do.

[Bobadohshe]

Nords are nice, but what you have to offer needs to be heard on a real piano Dave.

 

He has a Steinway D.

[mate stubb]

I understand that some samples are backward compatible but it's still true that some of their newer models can handle larger samples which you can't load in older models.

 

I can understand that Nords are too expensive in your opinion for your own needs. Fair enough.

 

But I have NEVER seen a company go to the lengths Nord does to please existing customers on old instruments with limited memory.

 

Quote from their website, talking about their piano library:

 

============================

All sounds available in several sizes - Extra Large, Large, Medium and Small

 

The Lrg, Med and Sml sizes share the same amount of velocity layers, and the same number of zones that are mapped across the keyboard. This means that you can rely on a consistent quality in regards to the playability and expressiveness in the basic sound of every piano, no matter which of these sizes you choose to install in your Nord Piano Library compatible unit.

[Bill H.]

Just a quick thought on Nord's pricing...

 

There was a time when we used to think that Moog, ARP, Oberheim, and SCI were price gouging us when they were in business. Only after they all went broke trying to please us musicians did we learn that they were always cash starved, and barely survived even the best of years.

 

It's tough going when you're catering to a much smaller market than the big boys.

[CEB]

The Piano is my favorite piece in the Nord lineup. I would play one if I didn't need such a broad array of rompler sounds and wasn't using the Yamaha vocoder.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

What hardware boards have been upgradable via software after four years? I can think of one.

 

I bought my Kurzweil PC3X in March, 2008. Still getting updates, at least a few more to come (if for nothing more than compatibility with added ROM). I've also had an Electro 3. But Kurzweil and Nord are the only ones that I'm familiar with that get a prolonged update time.

 

[zephonic]

I kind of agree with 16251 (great handle, btw). Nords are very expensive, and I can't see myself buying a new one. If you just look at the specs and price, they really can't compete with the Japanese competition.

 

But it's like a Steinway not competing with a Samick, who in his right mind would buy the former when you can have the same spec for a fifth of the price?

 

I was actually in the market for a MOX8 as it ticked all boxes for me, but I just wasn't feeling it. Went back to the store 3 days in a row, and disliked it more with every return. I looked at the S90XS as an alternative, liked it better, found one cheap on CL, only to learn that it wouldn't fit in my car with a flightcase. Not to mention it's friggin' heavy.

 

Dave's NP was in the same price range and although I really needed something more versatile I'm glad I waited for it. Sometimes the specs don't tell the whole story. I'm gonna miss that versatility on the bottom tier, but the NP is a real player's axe, something I haven't had for a long time.

 

 

 

[Aidan]

I'm gonna miss that versatility on the bottom tier, but the NP is a real player's axe, something I haven't had for a long time.

 

You might actually come to enjoy simplicity on your bottom board. Last night, I did my first rehearsal with both the NS2 and the Kronos and I basically used the five live slots on the Stage to give foundations of AP, Rhodes (two kinds), Wurli and Clav - it felt good, in the middle of some fairly complex material, to just head back to that bottom board and not worry much about on the fly adjustments.

 

Part of me does wonder whether I should have subsequently skipped the NS2 upgrade and gone straight to adding the Kronos to my NP but it's nice to have one board that can pretty do it all if need be, I guess.

[ProfD]

Menno, congrats on the acquisition of the Nord Piano. Enjoy.

 

Dave F., that is how you close a sell mayne.

 

Nowadays, decent KB technology exists at every price point.

 

Musos do not have to shred their wallet in order to get a quality instrument that allows them to make music.

[Dave Ferris]

Coming from another keyboard player, it's absolutely jaw-dropping to witness someone just casually sit down and rip something off like that.

While wearing sunglasses!

 

They're prescription. They're basically an extension of me so much here because of the intensity of the S. Ca. sun. My eyes are super sensitive to the sun so consequently when I go inside I often forget I still have them on.

 

Hey thanks everyone for the nice words-Michelle, Bill, Greg, Outkaster, Linwood and anyone else I left out. For Rick W, thanks man and yes I hear you. Like any pianist, I do do better on the real deal but the NP is good enough to get over on for the majority of the gigs I'm doing these days.

 

Like Aidan mentioned, the piano sounds have done a complete 180 since the Bosendorfer and Yamaha Bright Grand samples were released. Couple that with the XL samples and long release feature, through my fairly high end gigging system, the stuff sounds pretty happening now. I still feel like I'm a *Yamaha guy* at heart for keyboards, but all the aforementioned positive gigging qualities of the Nord really do make it, like Menno said, a player's ax.

 

Speaking of Menno, next time I'll be the one holding the iPhone camera/recorder because this guy can REALLY play, don't let him fool you. Throw in his extensive knowledge of synths and production, well he's a mofo.. It also feels good to know that my recent sales of DPs have gone to real players that I got to know as opposed the anonymous CL buyer you'll never see again.

 

Interesting to see the sub-thread develop about the Nords. I thought I was going too OT about Pacific Grove, Redondo and life at the beach in general...

[Dana.]

If you just look at the specs and price, they really can't compete with the Japanese competition.

How? You need to be more specific here.

 

Focusing solely on acoustic pianos, it's a fact that Nords are more versatile than any other keyboard emulating pianos because they offer samples of at least six different brands of pianos. Yamaha offers one brand. Roland offers... well, who the hell knows. Korg offers two brands. And what does it say about Yamaha when a competitor has a more realistic sample of their piano than they do?

[keyguy]

Dave, great playing! I read the manual and it wasn't clear to me whether or not you could transmit on 2 different midi channels when splitting the keyboard.I presently split my CP and send the lower end to a Motif rack, and then to a separate bass amp for LH bass. Would that work on the Nord piano? Thanks!

[Legatoboy]

Congrats Dave, I'm feel a bit less guilty about keeping the CP50. . .

[Markyboard]

What hardware boards have been upgradable via software after four years? I can think of one.

 

I bought my Kurzweil PC3X in March, 2008. Still getting updates, at least a few more to come (if for nothing more than compatibility with added ROM). I've also had an Electro 3. But Kurzweil and Nord are the only ones that I'm familiar with that get a prolonged update time.

 

 

One more that I can think of is the Moog Voyager - probably 8+ years.

[Al Coda]

 

You might actually come to enjoy simplicity on your bottom board.

 

That´s right.

I´d wish NORD designed the physical control area of the NORD Piano (3) more compact and move it completely to the left (like on a Access Virus TI) offering flat top space across the rest of the keyboard to put a 61 synth action board on top, just to have the keyboards/keybeds together as close as possible.

 

A.C.

[zephonic]

I do enjoy the simplicity. And I love switching effects on and off while playing, something I haven't done since I left the XP80.

 

I just have to change my approach, the NordPiano relieves the Fantom X from piano/rhodes/clav duties, so I did a factory reset on the latter and am reprogramming it to better match the NP.

 

Most of the performances in the FanX were piano/rhodes/pad splits with auxiliary sounds on the upper register. I don't need that anymore, so I can now better explore its true synth side.

 

It's a bit of work, but fun!

 

edit:

So far, the only thing I don't like about the NP is the color...

[16251]

For all that I've been complaining about price of N's, having control of effects instead of using presets (even though they have them,) is one of their more attractive feature. If you're feeling a ring module solo coming on you just flip the switch. cool.

[Al Coda]

I do enjoy the simplicity. And I love switching effects on and off while playing, something I haven't done since I left the XP80.

 

It sounds like a joke, but I play my Rhodes MK80 since I buyed it in the 90th because it features realtime switching of modulation FX, realtime EQ adjustment by sliders and a realtime MIDI On/Off button without introducing hanging notes,- regardless how it sounds compared to the actual keyboard instruments.

And it has a flat top to put any other keyboard on top delivering better sounds (local and over MIDI) which is my Kurzweil PC361 actually.

 

I like the bottom keyboard being a pure DP, the basic axe,- and the other gear the bells and whistles.

My ideal rig would be DP w/ synth on top and organ in L configuration,- but I hate the large space between bottom and upper tier keyboards if the bottom keyboard has it´s (few) controls (centered) on top of it´s surface.

 

I don't need that anymore, so I can now better explore its true synth side.

 

It's a bit of work, but fun!

 

Well, I could do a lot of stuff w/ piano/e-piano sounds, a basic synth pad and 1 killer lead synth sound if I´d had not to replicate already existing MIDI song/keyboard arrangements all the time.

 

When I was free like a bird, it was already cool w/ my Fender Rhodes, Minimoog D and later Prophet V or Obie 8 as live synths !

 

A.C.

 

[zephonic]

I have been doing some gigs with the NP88 and I gotta say that it holds up surprisingly well on crap sound systems.

 

Where the FantomX sounds good on studio speakers and high-end PA's but collapses on anything less, the NP88 doesn't blink and sounds roughly the same even on an ancient Peavy all-in-one; it's pretty amazing to me.

 

For piano and rhodes I feel I finally have something that satisfies, the Grand Lady D and Studio Grand 2 are all I need. I hardly ever use the Grand Imperial. The Rhodes and Wurly sounds are all great. Clavinets are nice, too, but I'm not as blown away by those.

 

However, I do worry that its limited scope can become a problem on more involved gigs. I use piano+pads a lot and the NP's minimal MIDI functionality makes it not very suitable for controlling external sounds.

 

It's not an issue right now, but it could become one.

 

All in all, though, very happy. The action is a bit light and shallow, there is room for more pronounced pp and ppp samples, but on the gig it's just all good.

 

 

[Al Coda]

 

However, I do worry that its limited scope can become a problem on more involved gigs. I use piano+pads a lot and the NP's minimal MIDI functionality makes it not very suitable for controlling external sounds.

 

It's not an issue right now, but it could become one.

 

Well, I´m using Miditemp PMM88E since decades and will use it ´til it fails.

With this box I can use any keyboard offering a MIDI Out and transmitting on 1 MIDI channel only because the PMM88E is the masterkeyboard controller.

 

Since I own a KURZ PC361, I have an alternative because it covers lots of functionality the PMM88E offers.

I think, the KORG Kronos offers lots of MIDI functionality too.

 

KURZ PC361 and a 88-keys DP w/ limited MIDI functionality is the bang for the buck,- wire your DP MIDI-Out to KURZ PC361 MIDI-In and use it as a/the "small rig" or control your larger rig incl. rack(s) that way.

 

A.C.

[Aidan]

Look at it this way, Menno. By the time you're in the position you envisage, DF's NP2 will be available for you to snap up!

[zahush76]

Dave has it right when he refers to such instruments as "gigging tools".

+1

The more i think about it - the more i agree.

I have a Nord Stage 2 HA76 which i bought almost automatically as an upgrade from my former stage classic. But i'm not gigging anymore.

From a gigging keyboard player point of view - if i had to choose just one keyboard, the NS2 would be it.

But now, only playing at home, connected to my DAW, i can hardly justify such an expensive keyboard when my "go to" rhodes is scatbee, and my "go to" b3 is vb3, and my "go to" mellotron and string machines are mtron-pro and virtual string machine. It is, right now, a very expensive controller which at best could function as a backup keyboard if my pc fails.