Another X-Stand Nightmare

[Floyd Tatum]

Can´t understand why some keyboardists dont use a security string. Make your own. Costs nothing, saves money and anxiety

That sounds like an interesting idea. Where would you put the nylon strap? Around the X-point?

 

[Bridog6996]

Quiklok double-braced X stands have a load rating of 260 lbs, I believe. More than enough juice. That's more weight than the Z stand posted above can handle, in fact.

Actually, the base of that Z is rated at 400lbs....

 

I must have looked up the wrong one. Most of Quikok's Zs are rated for 200-250 lbs.

 

Either way, 260 lbs is more than enough to handle anything short of a Rhodes. All these "X stand disaster!" threads are the same couple of videos posted over and over again.

[resigned]

Who "rates" these things anyway? The "International X-Stand Rating Association"?

 

X stands suck. They're cheap, they look as bad as they work, and then they fall down.

 

So many better choices, so little common sense...

[Sven Golly]

All these "X stand disaster!" threads are the same couple of videos posted over and over again.

 

We have to repost so they don't get lost in all the "Z-stand collapse" and "WS-550 self-destructs" threads.

 

Oh, wait.......

 

[Skinny]

I think part of the problem, where I live anyway, is that music stores carry only x-stands in-store. I can walk into any music store and find an X-stand or twenty, but NEVER a z-stand. Sometimes I wonder if people even realize that there are better options.

[Joe Muscara]

Backline companies seem to use them nearly exclusively as well.

[SK]

And of course, the stand collapsing had nothing to do with the player bearing down with all his might , on a heavy board, during his groovalicious solo.

 

Most of my gigs these days are on acoustic, but I've used double braced X-stands forever without incident. It's a fast setup (I actually don't enjoy setting up) and I always check to make sure the pin is all the way in. Not endorsing them either - X-stands are definitely uncool, but then the stand you use doesn't make you cool.

 

Of course, if one ever does collapse on me, I'll be on the other side of the fence in a NY min.

[zephonic]

And of course, the stand collapsing had nothing to do with the player bearing down with all his might , on a heavy board, during his groovalicious solo.

 

Most of my gigs these days are on acoustic, but I've used double braced X-stands forever without incident. It's a fast setup (I actually don't enjoy setting up) and I always check to make sure the pin is all the way in. Not endorsing them either - X-stands are definitely uncool, but then the stand you use doesn't make you cool.

 

Of course, if one ever does collapse on me, I'll be on the other side of the fence in a NY min.

 

+1

[Sven Golly]

And of course, the stand collapsing had nothing to do with the player bearing down with all his might , on a heavy board, during his groovalicious solo.

 

No, it was a huge factor in the collapse; the point is, a stand like a Z stand or the WS550 would NOT collapse in this fashion, no matter how hard you played.

[StevenS]

Can´t understand why some keyboardists dont use a security string. Make your own. Costs nothing, saves money and anxiety

That sounds like an interesting idea. Where would you put the nylon strap? Around the X-point?

 

 

Yes. I use a speakerwire tied in the middle, between the upper part of the X. The wire is elongated (is this the right word?) when the keyboard is in the proper hight.

[SK]

Yeah Sven, I know that was the original point. Just being thorough since no one had mentioned extreme heavy playing as a contributing factor.

 

Until I buy my next stand, I'll keep using my customized, ugly x-stand (w/pin made of kryptonite.)

[Sven Golly]

Yeah Sven, I know that was the original point. Just being thorough since no one had mentioned extreme heavy playing as a contributing factor.

 

[zoooombiex]

Quiklok double-braced X stands have a load rating of 260 lbs, I believe. More than enough juice. That's more weight than the Z stand posted above can handle, in fact.

 

True, but I would think that the weight limits describe the point at which the stands physically break down. I.e., assuming the stands are properly set up and all components perform as expected, they will physically fail at the weight limit.

 

I would guess a lot of X-stand failures are not caused by exceeding weight limits but by a defective component (e.g., the locking pin slipping as opposed to breaking).

 

So the weight limits are one aspect to consider, but the physical design of something like a Z-stand or table stand is also important, and which point in the design is most likely to fail first.

[keyoctave]

I think of weight ratings on stands like tow ratings on vehicles. The higher the rating, the more heavy duty it is, but would I want to even come close to that limit...........NO!

[Joe Muscara]

A manufacturer would be foolish to say X is the weight limit of a stand when they know it will fail at or close to that limit. This is because people will always push that number. Also, they have to leave room for variances in materials and manufacturing as well as possibly wear and tear. A manufacturer who knows what they are doing will be able to account for those factors and stay clear of them.

 

In fact, I'd guess that a stand might be able to handle as much as 2x the load rating. That doesn't mean they won't fail at a smaller load, but that could be due to a number of factors.

 

 

How many pins do double-braced x-stands have?

[zoooombiex]

In fact, I'd guess that a stand might be able to handle as much as 2x the load rating. That doesn't mean they won't fail at a smaller load, but that could be due to a number of factors.

 

True - that goes back to my point: regardless of whether manufacturers inflate or deflate the weight limit number, that limit assumes that the stand is performing properly. So comparing the weight ratings is only the part of the picture as to the stand's ultimate durability and reliability.

 

It would be equally important (if not moreso) to consider the nature of the design - what component is actually holding the weight? and how likely is it that that critical compenent may malfunction?

 

For example, in the video in the OP, it's a double braced stand (appears to be @ 0:09 in the video). Those usually have a weight limit of around 200 lbs. The board was only about 60 lbs, so it had 140 lbs to spare. As hard as he was playing, I doubt that keyboardist was putting 140 lbs of pressure on it - that'd be most of his body weight. So I doubt the stand failed due to exceeding the weight limit.

[Sharp-Nines]

Z stand works great for my XS-8....

[Steve LeBlanc]

Thats surprising, you guys remember this one?

 

 

And it was a single X...

 

a bit risky but I don't think that single x stand was in danger of collapsing at any point

 

 

As far as the OP, well, I can't tell from the video why the stand collapsed...I don't think it was because the pianist put too much weight on it. Backline companies often have old X stands that have been beat to hell for years. Without more info, I'd assume that stand broke down due to a bent/tweaked pin that should have been retired and/or the player accidently triggered the release with his legs/knees/feet

 

I've never seen an X stand fail unless it was in bad shape from lots of abuse or someone did something stupid.

 

FWIW, I've put a Rhodes on a single braced X stand several times, never worried about it collapsing but always checked to make sure the stand was in ok shape.

 

 

 

 

 

yous guys are really passionate in the x-stand hate

[ITGITC]

So I doubt the stand failed due to exceeding the weight limit.

 

The stand failed because it was butt-ugly.

 

Friends don't let friends use X-stands.

 

End of discussion.

 

 

 

Errr... anybody wanna buy a good used X-stand?

 

 

[ITGITC]

I've never seen an X stand fail unless it was in bad shape from lots of abuse or someone did something stupid.

 

Well - it's obvious you are new to all this.

 

(I'm kidding, Mr. LeBlanc. Don't kick me again in yer bare feets!)

 

I have a Crocodile Stand. That's the manufacturer's name.

 

It has crocodile teeth in the mechanism that holds it together - fastened in the middle by a bolt with a knob made of plastic.

 

Well, I was playing my K2000 on the 2nd floor deck of the beach house around July 4th at Wrightsville Beach, NC. It was a beautiful evening and I, like many others who walk the beach, had tossed off all my clothes.

 

Well, not all my clothes. I still had my shirt. And my shorts. And my wedding ring - because... well, U-know how all the good-looking beach babes just can't get enough of short, balding, older-than-forever guys who could be their father.

 

Anyway, that plastic knob distentegrated, the bolt loosened, and the K2000 came down directly on my toes.

 

It hurt.

 

But worse, in my panicked state, I spilled my beer.

 

It was a full beer.

 

We have a rule at the beach - no good beer left behind. We call that "Bitch-Beer".

 

I don't know why.

 

I don't have a moral to the story other than Ace hardware has bolts with fancy nuts to go with them. They look like small butterflies with tiny steel wings.

 

It's true.

 

I know. I couldn't believe it either.

 

Long story short - Ace is the place. I fixed the stand - better than new.

 

Of course, it's still ugly.

 

I stopped using it.

 

I figure that one day I'll put a piece of plywood on it and fashion a high-tech ironing board from it.

 

Or not.

 

 

 

 

[Sharp-Nines]

You are right on about the weight limit....I recently purchased an Apex Ultimate stand because it looked sexier than my Z stand and had a 250# weight rating per tier....yet it wobbled, and when I put my Motif XS-8 on it...it was a disaster...250#? ..so what...the board wobbled and I was afraid the stand was going to topple towards me....so I took the clip out at the bottom of the stand to adjust the center of gravity...BUT THE TIERS NOW POINTED UP TO SKY AND I FELT I WAS PLAYING KEYBOARDS LIKE THE HIP HOP GUYS DO...and if you remember...Steve Walsh of Kansas back in the day..........WTF....what is wrong with the designs of these stands? YOu would think they would actually have couple of average to above average keyboard players try them out....I could solve the design problems in about 15 minutes!!!

[Sharp-Nines]

You will love your Z stand...totally durable and sturdy.

[Tobias Åslund]

It can wobble like hell, but still be nowhere near collapsing. I'm pretty sure that if they state 250 they are pretty sure it will hold for that.

 

Many single X-stands are rated 100+ lbs, but they are wobbly. Column stands like the Apex are wobbly as well, as you've discovered, just simply because the short arms doesn't extend enough to support the ends of a long 88 key board - and more importantly the base where those arms extend from is what - three inches wide..? If you should attach a 5 feet bench to a wall, you wouldn't secure it with only two bolts in the middle of the bench with no legs to support the ends, would you?

 

No, if you need stability, get a table type stand, Z-stand or a bulky A-frame instead.

 

I'm using two different Koenig & Meyer table type stands (18950 and 18880), and a 3-tier Standtastic. I also have a Baby Spider - really well built, but wobbly as hell, since it's constructed very similar to the Apex.

Finally - I have an old double braced X-stand, ProEl EL-250, with EL-450 2nd tier and an identical cheap Chinese copy of this stand. The ProEl has been with me since 1995 and it still shows no fatigue. I am not expecting the Chinese stand to last nearly that long...

[Michelle ggurl]

Mr. Tobbe and I have been discussing on another thread (active right now, actually) how awesome both the Standtastic and K&M 18880 stands are. Worth checking out, especially the 18880 for lightweight and reasonably easy to set up. Plus no rocking back and forth (sometimes had that w my X ... Stand, i mean). To get a really stable X stand is possible, but it is heavy. So instead of getting that, I opted for lighter weight but very stable (and room for my pedals and feet, too). It's all a trade-off, as with any gear; the 18880 ain't cheap.

 

And Sharp Nines, regarding the Apex arms tilting, when you knock the stand back to accommodate bigger boards, you are supposed to buy extended arms, and I believe also a different mounting bracket, which together are heavier-duty and mount in at a different angle so that the boards are parallel to the floor once again (at least that's how it worked when I owned my Apex years ago). Still, I never could trust my weighted 88 controller on the stand like that. It just felt creepy to me; I ended up buying a heavier X stand for that and actually felt safer, but I didn't gig that out. I stopped using the my gigging stand, the Apex (and started using Standtastic), when I unwittingly found a "squishy" part of a stage and my 40-lb Kurzweil came smashing down, breaking two keys. I still have (and repaired) the Kurz. The Apex is gone.

 

I know that's only tangentially related to X stands, but I thought I'd add my experience with stands in general to the discussion.

[ITGITC]

 

For the gig tonight, I'm using a Baby Kanker Stand®.

 

http://www.quiklok.com/catalog/files/WS540.jpg

 

I put my keyboard on it and measured the height of the keytops compared with my Chickering. Same height. No adjustment necessary. And it's so small, it's almost invisible.

 

I could call it the Invisible Baby Kanker Stand®!

 

So minimalist... I think ProfD will approve.

 

Yup... Less is better. Or as Paula Deen says, "Bless this butter!"

 

Tom

 

[Tonysounds]

Double X stands aren't quite as insane as single X stands: I used one to hold my chopped Hammond for years; I even used it to hold my "chopped" C3. I say "chopped" because the Hammond "tech" who shall remain nameless (unless you live in the Chicago area, then its Mike from M&S Organ, don't ever get work done there as he's a liar and a thief and will rip parts out of your organ to fix another if your parts aren't in) only cut the bottom half off of the supports. It was possibly the ugliest thing ever seen, and a fkn bear.

[zukskywalker]

Forgive me as I'm having problems with attachments right now but I posted elsewhere on this subject so here it is.

First of all I love my double x-stand. There, I said it. Yes I drool over the better stands but I simply cannot afford any of them...too many grandchildren. Yes, I have nightmares about it but I've also replaced the center bolts with grade 8 bolts, I have a nylon strap that straddles under the 88 and onto the horizontal rests, and my boards lock in a manner that also helps prevent collapse. Once disconnected from the "underverse" (pedals,cables,etc.) the whole thing can be moved as a single unit. One stand only...triple tier from hell.

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340255&d=1321801106

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340253&d=1321801078

(note: at this point the stand is "locked" to the 88. Grab the piano and the stand goes with it)

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340252&d=1321801063

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340254&d=1321801092

[zoooombiex]

It can wobble like hell, but still be nowhere near collapsing. I'm pretty sure that if they state 250 they are pretty sure it will hold for that.

 

I think that's true to a degree, except that the more it wobbles the more likely it is that the pin might slip loose or the nuts holding the X's together might work loose.

 

IMO the limitation of X-stands is inherent in the design. You have all the weight being supported by one (maybe two pins, although my double-braced x-stand only has one), and the pins are at the end of a 2+ foot lever open to a significant angle. That design amplifies the stress on the pin.

 

I have two x-stands that I use at home for light boards where things don't move around much (and I still occasionally tighten and check all the nuts/pins), but for gigging I feel much more comfortable with a Z or table design.

[Joe P]

Forgive me as I'm having problems with attachments right now but I posted elsewhere on this subject so here it is.

First of all I love my double x-stand. There, I said it. Yes I drool over the better stands but I simply cannot afford any of them...too many grandchildren. Yes, I have nightmares about it but I've also replaced the center bolts with grade 8 bolts, I have a nylon strap that straddles under the 88 and onto the horizontal rests, and my boards lock in a manner that also helps prevent collapse. Once disconnected from the "underverse" (pedals,cables,etc.) the whole thing can be moved as a single unit. One stand only...triple tier from hell.

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340255&d=1321801106

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340253&d=1321801078

(note: at this point the stand is "locked" to the 88. Grab the piano and the stand goes with it)

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340252&d=1321801063

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340254&d=1321801092

 

Zuk,

That's fascinating. Are those custom tiers? Also, how are they arranged front-to-back (i.e. can you see the controls of the all the boards)?

Regards,

Joe

 

[Mogut]

For the X stands it all comes down to the "shear strength" of the pin. Generally a 1/4" pin or bolt yields a very high shear strength with a capacity to hold hundreds of pounds in this application. However, the pin must stay into position, and the rest of the design must be able to yield the same load.

 

Thats where you'll find differences in quality between the manufacturers. Usually a spring loaded pin, must have enough compression to stay in position. If the design can accomplish that, an X stand will not fail.

 

Some stands have a lever design to release the pin, the lever is usually up high (a knee knocker) for ease of use. Stay away from those

 

http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/tension_shear.gif