Did I do the right thing?

[Eric Jx]

We had a gig booked for this Friday and we just found out the venue double booked and we're out. We had about 100 confirmed guest that were coming down.

 

The lead singer started calling around looking for a last minute replacement venue. He first came back with a place nearby, but it was one of these typical 50'x20' pubs that would never have a chance of holding our crowd. They also wouldn't be specific on pay. I nixed that idea.

 

Then he came back with another venue. From what I hear this is a real nice place with a good crowd.

 

The problem is he told the venue we'd play for free in the hopes of landing a regular gig there. I'll quote my response:

 

"I'm sorry but I won't play for free, strictly on principle.

Who's doing who a favor here? Matt doesn't have a band booked for Friday, and he wants us to come down, entertain his existing crowd, pack the place with our friends, we get NOTHING, and he's doing us a favor?

 

Remember guys, we HAVE a regular gig at xxxx. It's a nice place. They pay us $xxx a night. We're only looking to play out twice a month. We have to be picky with our second venue choice. We don't have to take exploitive offers. Playing a place for free demonstrates to bar owners that we don't value our time, and we don't value our product. What would you do if you went on a job interview and you were given an offer to work for free for a few months, and if you "blow the doors off the place", we'll think about keeping you around and perhaps paying you sometime in the future?

 

Bands get exploited all the time. Mostly because so few bands are run by someone with some business sense. Let's not be one of those bands."

 

The singer was taken aback by my response. The drummer sided with the singer. The drummer usually handles the bar negotiations and up until this point I thought he handles things well. I'm quite surprised that he's willing to play somewhere for free to get "exposure". His point was this venue is a "step up" from where we usually play and he's confident we'd impress the owner.

 

I listened to the opposing arguments and responsed with this:

"The xxxx is either a place that treats their bands with respect or a place that shits on them. Let's find out NOW what type of place it is."

 

 

I wasn't asking for our normal fee. But if they're unwilling to offer ANYTHING to the band, then it's obvious they don't respect what we bring to the table and they probably never will. At that point, it doesn't matter how nice the venue is, it not worth pursuing as a band.

 

For what it's worth, the bass player took my side.

 

I normally wouldn't think twice about my position, but as I stated before, the drummer has good business sense and it's odd for us to land on opposite sides of a disagreement.

[Rockhouse]

Well, if one place double-booked and it ends up that your band is the one who gets the axe, I'd never play that venue again for any less than double what they used to pay you. You double booked, now you can double pay or kiss my ass, is what I'd tell them.

 

Now you need a new venue and sometimes you have to audition to get a booking.

 

So, I'm sorry to say I'd side with your singer.

 

Just my two cents.

[Eric Jx]

Fair enough.

 

Just to clarify, the friday gig that was cancelled was at a new venue for us, it's not the place we play monthly.

[Michael Wright]

Someday I am going to walk into a venue and ask to have dinner and drinks, in order to decide if I would like to return later as a paying customer.

 

I should say I probably got the idea from someone here, or the LA club owner article.

[Joe Muscara]

I agree with you Eric.

 

It's not like your band isn't established or doesn't have a following.

[J. Dan]

What about offering to play for the door the first time? That way, they have no risk because if you don't draw, they don't pay. But on the upside, if you get all your folks out, you get some good pay.

 

But yes, I definitely agree I wouldn't play for free - no way!

 

You know, there's probably a couple hundred bands around St. Louis - if they all fell for that play for free and see how you do thing, a bar could have a different band every friday and saturday night and have live music for a couple years and never pay a cent for it. Maybe longer since new bands are always coming around.

[allan_evett]

What about offering to play for the door the first time? That way, they have no risk because if you don't draw, they don't pay. But on the upside, if you get all your folks out, you get some good pay.

 

But yes, I definitely agree I wouldn't play for free - no way!

.....

 

^^^

THIS

 

[MonksDream]

What about offering to play for the door the first time? That way, they have no risk because if you don't draw, they don't pay. But on the upside, if you get all your folks out, you get some good pay.

 

But yes, I definitely agree I wouldn't play for free - no way!

.....

 

 

^^^

THIS

^^^

Yep, THAT

[Josh Paxton]

I'm with you. No pay = no play, end of story.

[Craig MacDonald]

I'm relatively new to the forum, but I have to think that this playing for free thing has come up before.. Live music sucks these days... and it's due to a couple of things, far too many 3 chord closet musicians who are willing to work for nothing so that they can pretend they're a rock star on a Saturday night, and kareoke and DJ's.. as a result there's not a lot of options for live music, period, let alone good paying options!

 

I think we've all seen that LA Club Owner article and it was pretty spot on.. when I was playing full-time (30 years ago), if you were a club owner you made money by having great bands, by having a reputation for always having great bands, and making sure that your customers had a great time.. Nowadays, club owners make money by taking advantage of bands and hiring the bands that have the most friends to fill the club and it doesn't matter if they're any good at all! Many clubs have even gone to formats where 3-4 different bands each play a 45 minute set in order to drive business, but this "friends of the band" based business is destined to fail.

 

Like any business they need to invest in building their business and developing their "brand".. whatever form of entertainment that includes, should be as important as their location, the quality of the food, their decor and their marketing plan!

 

Play for nothing.. nope don't do it.. instead ask the club owner why he's willing bet the success of his business on bands that are willing to play for nothing, or next to nothing, hoping that they have a lot of friends, rather than building his clubs reputation based on consistently hiring, and paying for, good entertainment!

 

 

 

 

[Brettymike]

Hi Eric,I just signed in as a new user to say good on you ,and back you 100% , I couldn't have written your letter better myself.

 

Brett.

[Mr. Nightime]

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac19/mrnightime/577645_380489415336568_100001265381749_1167448_334194186_n.jpg

[Cygnus64]

"Only birds sing for free". - Van Cliburn

[Synthoid]

Bands get exploited all the time. Mostly because so few bands are run by someone with some business sense. Let's not be one of those bands."

 

Excellent way to close the letter. I agree with you 100%.

 

I've been asked to play for free over the years... normally for charity events, and I really don't mind if it's a good cause. For your situation, however, good business sense is crucial.

[jogger]

The singer of a band I joined booked us into a spot that would after paying for parking/travel essentially be playing for free or taking a loss. I told the leader I'm not interested in potential freebies. Hauling six grand of equipment for that doesn't cut it. So the leader is paying me out of his pocket a set minimum, more if the band makes more.

[Michael Wright]

Friends don't let friends play for free.

[NeedMoreBass]

I totally agree with no pay no play. I recently quit a very good band over a similar situation. I told the guys when I joined I would not play for free unless it was for a good cause, yet 2 months later they booked a gig where we had to PAY to play at one of these useless showcase venues. I told them it would get them nowhere. I quit the band and they went on to do the gig with another bass player. It got them nothing and cost them over $1500 in expenses.

 

 

Stand your ground!! You are on the right side of this issue.

[Tonysounds]

... the drummer has good business sense and it's odd for us to land on opposite sides of a disagreement.

 

Bada Bing, where the first lap dance is on us! Yeah, tell em Tony Soprano sent you.

 

Plumbers first call to your house free? Never happen.

 

Electricians: Nope.

 

Come to Speedy Lube, where your first oil change is on us: then if you like us, join our Rewards program! Ha!!!!

 

McDonalds, 460 billion served, but the first one is always free.

 

In this case, your drummer is wrong, and shows NO business sense. He didn't negotiate, he told them you would play for free.

 

At the very least, work for the door. Otherwise, let your people know due to the incompetence of the original venue circumstances beyond the band's control, your gig is postponed until further notice.

[ITGITC]

Eric -

 

I understand your stance, but I don't agree 100% on how you went about it...

 

First - never put something as controversial as this in an email. This is something you discuss in person. Email is, or can be, forever. And it can be taken out of context. It can be passed around to people who aren't connected to this decision. And, it can be resurrected years later. That's never good when the topic is as controversial as this.

 

Second - You said too much. You should have stopped with I'm sorry but I won't play for free.

 

Then you should have followed that up with, Why don't we all get together and discuss this?

 

Third - Your last sentence: Bands get exploited all the time. Mostly because so few bands are run by someone with some business sense. Let's not be one of those bands.

 

With that last sentence you just insulted the guys who were making the effort to book the band... in front of everyone in the band. That had to be embarrasing for them. Do you pay them to book the band or were they doing this on their own time?

 

In this case it was not only the singer, but the drummer that you offended since he, too, is responsible for booking the band. That's two of your bandmates... in an email - where they couldn't immediately offer a rebuttal and present a case for themselves. After reading your email, all the singer and drummer could do was to sit... and stew.

 

No. If the band was over-booked, then it would have been best to walk away from that deal and start fresh another time, perhaps with another venue that you all can agree on.

 

Unfortunately, your lead singer was scrambling at the last minute and had desperation in his voice. The venue manager heard that and, when the singer offered to play for free, that was music to the manager's ears - pun intended.

 

How hard would it have been to send an email to your guests telling them that the gig wasn't going to happen and that you will let them know the next time you've got a gig lined up?

 

I would do that, then I would spend my Friday night doing something else. Something you enjoy.

 

Perhaps it's not too late to set things straight with your band mates.

 

Tom

 

[Synthoid]

After reading your post Tom, I have to say you'd be a great negotiator in a crisis. I respect what you've said and it certainly gives me a lot to think about if I was in a similar position.

 

I raise a glass to you, brother. We'll have to share some good beer someday.

 

http://www.genx40.com/images/beerblog/dfh90ipa1.JPG

[Joe Muscara]

While I generally agree with what Tom says about written vs. spoken, I don't think anything bad nor controversial was said in Eric's email. JMO.

[Adan]

Clubs that don't charge at the door will generally not want to do it on a one-time basis, because it will put off their regular clientele, who are accustomed to just walking in and spending their money on drinks/food. Aside from that, there's nothing wrong with a play-for-the-door idea, at least on a first time trial basis.

 

I'm not one who subscribes to the "never, ever, play for free" doctrine. Yes, in general, it's a bad idea. Yes, in general, the people who propose it are just trying to use you. But it's worth keeping an open mind, because there are the rare exceptions where it can work out for you. For instance, a new place opens up, the owners don't see the live music potential, but you do, so you play for free, bring in some friends, it's successful, and there you are, the foundational talent for a new music club, and now they're paying you. Does this happen often? No, it does not. But it happens.

 

It's like anything else in life . . . don't be dogmatic, be opportunistic, be smart.

 

That said, I think the OP did the right thing. That particular play-for-free situation sounds like run of the mill jive BS.

[J. Dan]

There are other ways to go about that. I've worked out deals before with clubs that were worried about committing to such a high price, where we got a guaranteed minimum, and if there were over a certanin agreed upon people in the place, we got our price. That reduces risk for the bar but still guarantees you'll get paid something. Of course, you have to rely on the door guy taking an accurate count - usually it's good to have a friend of the band sitting there taking count as well in those cases.

[Adan]

we got a guaranteed minimum, and if there were over a certanin agreed upon people in the place, we got our price.

 

In my experience, that's a very common way of structuring the deal.

[Eric Jx]

Tom,

 

Thank you for your take. I appreciate your point out how my words might be taken as an insult. Truth be told, I already feel bad about it because our singer is a really nice guy and has been busting his butt on our behalf. I didn't mean to demean, I just want to drive home the point that if you approach negotiations with the idea in your head that your time is worthless, you are hurting your cause.

 

I've already talked to the singer on the phone and discussed the issue calmly.

 

[Eric Jx]

There has been some developments that have somewhat vindicated my position.

 

I've asked around about this venue. There is only one band that plays there. It's a Billy Joel Tribute band and they play there every 6 weeks. When that band isn't around, they have a DJ playing jersey shore fist pumping music.

 

It sounds to me like this isn't the the type of venue that would be looking for bands to put in a regular rotation. My hunch is the BL of the Billy Joel band is friends with the owner of this venue, and because of that the venue lets him play there.

 

Last night our drummer called over to speak to the manager of this place. He told him the crowd we were expecting, and told him the singer spoke out of line when he offered our services for free. He said as a courtesy, he and the singer would forgo their cut, but the keyboardist, bassist, and guitar player won't play for free. He told him what we make at other venues and offered him a steeply discounted rate. The manager seems receptive over the phone, and the drummer offered to drive down and finalized things at the bar.

 

The drummer got there at the agreed upon time, and was told that the manager was in the basement working on something and would be up soon. A half hour later he was told the manager is still busy and they couldn't tell him when he'd be up but he was welcome to wait. The drummer left.

 

I think we can safely say that this manager really never had the intention of cultivating a mutually beneficial relationship with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ITGITC]

I think we can safely say that this manager really never had the intention of cultivating a mutually beneficial relationship with us.

 

Eric, Whew!

 

I may be a little overly-sensitive... OK, I'm pretty sure I'm a LOT overly-sensitive.

 

I've been bitten by sending email messages that have turned out to be more harmful than not.

 

My life is email. Because of this, I have learned (the hard way) to try to be very careful with regards to how the listener may interpret my words. What I wrote above wasn't to come down on you, but moreso to remind me of the times that I have screwed up & had to backtrack. I hope you understand.

 

My best to you and the guys in the band for trying as hard as you do to make everything work. It's not easy.

 

Tom

 

[David Loving]

So the gig is off, right?

[Dave Weiser]

If you are a professional musician, and your band typically gets paid for gigs... then you definitely did the right thing.

 

People only treat you as badly as you let them.

 

I do agree with Tom about exercising discretion (more than you might think necessary) with emails in general. But I thought your specific email was fine.

While it is indeed important to be polite and courteous, there are certain areas - ability, timeliness, business decisions - where honesty supersedes all other factors.

 

Anyone ever been in a band with a godawful drummer, but no one would speak up because "we're all friends"? If someone can't play the part, or if someone booked an ill conceived, soul-crushing gig.... you are not the bad guy for pointing out the truth. A little integrity never killed anyone.

(I know it's an obnoxious saying but I love it nevertheless.)

 

Of course there are certain instances where playing for free is ok.... like if you're a pro band, but the gig is a charity event, or you're in a non-pro band comprised of hobbyists who are just grateful for an occasional reprieve from the neurotic dungeon of a suburban basement, or if the show is a real niche thing for which few people would pay - like covering Tales From Topographical Oceans on key-tars and ukeleles.

 

 

[Michelle ggurl]

If you are a professional musician, and your band typically gets paid for gigs... then you definitely did the right thing.

 

People only treat you as badly as you let them.

 

 

+1. Also, while I think what Tom said has merit, but I'm also thinking, you know your bandmates. I happen to cover a LOT of ground in emails with some people without incident. The ultimate outcome proves your read on the situation was spot-on.

 

Perhaps this will give your band bookers renewed energy and purpose; if you can bring 100 people to your gigs regularly, there has GOT to be a place that will honor respectable terms for you. The other thing, what about turning the date into "fan appreciation night" and renting a hall? Are there any places like that, where you charge a door fee and the venue has security, sound, and lighting services and possibly food/drink? We have some venues like that around here ... Just a thought, wondering what the margins would be on doing that sort of thing. If it were a videotaped/photographed event with crowd shots, it could show your draw power.