Should I be slightly annoyed?

[Cygnus64]

Heres the thing: everyone, posters in this thread, yourself, and your bandleader, are confusing the issue. There are two bands here,

I'm seeing one package deal, only b3boy can tell us differently. The paid gig is the dangling carrot for the non-paying one. I see One gig that technically involves 2 bands.

[Michelle ggurl]

I'm not seeing as a package deal, which I thought I made clear ... I hope I did, because my advice (in case it wasn't clear) was to bail on the originals band if it's a burden, and say he's still available for the jazz project. I suspect the leader also knows they are two separate projects but is intentionally blurring those boundaries. Maybe it's all a matter of semantics, ie, whether or not Gary calls the leader on it by choosing to accept only the jazz gigs. Sounds like the bassist did that already. Lots of solid advice here all around. Good luck with your decision, Gary!

[mcgoo]

I do know our bassist in particular is turning down gigs with him purely because of no money.

 

Did everyone else miss this or did I misunderstand it? If the bass player can play the jazz gigs but pass on the original band gigs, why can't you?

[Michelle ggurl]

Right (see my post above). Of course one thing we don't know is if the bassist has been offered the paying gig?

 

Also, something else occurs to me ... The leader is not a vocalist, but rather, a "multi-instrumentalist," right? So, what's the genre of the original music? Did I miss that somewhere? If jazz along the lines of the paying gigs, then suddenly this changes .. Then it's "unpaid showcase gigs where we play only my originals" versus "paid casuals gigs where we (potentially) sneak in a few originals and possibly do a lot of them, while at the same time playing some standards." in which case, I see no reason to do so many unpaid showcase gigs; you do those to get the paid ones, lol! Not to complicate anything or overthink it (might be too late for that), but thinking this added info might be useful in assessing this situation.

[Gary75]

The originals band has been going a year, I have enjoyed it, but I have also hated it at times. I initially put a lot of effort in getting us gigs, only I made a point of getting ones that were paid, and not expecting like he does, to drop everything and gig for 25 minutes for zilch. I know I know, that's how the originals circuit works, exposure but no money. I have no problems doing it, but I do have a problem when it all revolves around one person. I really am not whining, I'm actually very laid back to the point of falling over - I just wanted to throw the dilemma into the lions den here and see what scraps you guys throw out!

 

So to make it clear, the originals band has been going a year, the paid residency starts in a month. The crunch has come when not only is the originals all him, I can now see the standards gig going the same way. Why? why would anybody with a sensible amount of ego want to try and bust in on a run of the mill standards gig? It's all about a job and fee, but he's obviously wanting to bring his image into it.

 

You know what, the telling part will be the next few weeks. IF the standards band has his name as the bandname, I'll know then what I need to know.

 

 

 

 

[Aidan]

You know what, the telling part will be the next few weeks. IF the standards band has his name as the bandname

 

I'd lay good money on that being the case.

[Tonysounds]

Heres the thing: everyone, posters in this thread, yourself, and your bandleader, are confusing the issue. There are two bands here,

I'm seeing one package deal, only b3boy can tell us differently. The paid gig is the dangling carrot for the non-paying one. I see One gig that technically involves 2 bands.

 

See, thats the issue: He, the bandleader, has co=opted the jazz covers gig, and combined them to keep everyone more or less in line. But in fact, they are two different gigs, entirely. And the O.P. would be well advised to take the advice given with this as the overview.

Michelle and McGoo have understood this from the get-go.

 

[Cygnus64]

Heres the thing: everyone, posters in this thread, yourself, and your bandleader, are confusing the issue. There are two bands here,

I'm seeing one package deal, only b3boy can tell us differently. The paid gig is the dangling carrot for the non-paying one. I see One gig that technically involves 2 bands.

 

See, thats the issue: He, the bandleader, has co=opted the jazz covers gig, and combined them to keep everyone more or less in line. But in fact, they are two different gigs, entirely. And the O.P. would be well advised to take the advice given with this as the overview.

Michelle and McGoo have understood this from the get-go.

 

What we have got here is...failure to communicate.

 

I assure you I understand this too. I am fully aware of them being two separate gigs. I'm saying that if one band is quit, the offer for the other band will be miraculously withdrawn as well. AKA, I'm agreeing with you. It's all semantics: it's two gigs, but we all know damn well that the guy is playing "dangle the carrot", therefore creating one package deal.

 

 

[CEB]

There is one way to find out.

[moj]

"Bait and Hook". b3boy is getting a bit of what the "entertainment/music" business is like.

b3boy, you should talk to your bandleader about your concerns. Your indignation with the bandleader may turn into a lot of resentment/bitterness if you let this fester. Of course, I would confront him with a velvet glove, at first.

[CEB]

Personally I wouldn't mess no velvet gloves ..... boxing gloves maybe.

 

I'm an old fart that don't play for free and doesn't really care if I play if my gut insticts tell me the man I am working for is a D-bag. I'm pretty much a out in the open kind of guy but I also have a really good day job too. Ah the joys of dealing with musicians.

[moj]

Personally I wouldn't mess no velvet gloves ..... boxing gloves maybe.

"Velvet glove, at first. Iron Fist next." is what I wrote then changed...

[Cygnus64]

I do know our bassist in particular is turning down gigs with him purely because of no money.

 

Did everyone else miss this or did I misunderstand it? If the bass player can play the jazz gigs but pass on the original band gigs, why can't you?

 

Elementary, my dear Watson: the paid gig is hypothetical at this point in time. Possibilities:

 

The gig doesn't exist

The gig is a "maybe"

The personnel will be different

The $/situation will be different

It will have more conditions attached than previously thought.

 

It's happened to me a good 20 times. I don't do free gigs, but many times I've taken a crap gig to sub for someone with a promise of some killer future gig thrown in there. It should be easy to predict the outcome of the aforementioned killer gig. Money or no money, it's all the same sh*t: someone strings you along until the good gig, when all of a sudden there is some unfortunate change of plans.

 

There's an easy way to settle this soon: Call the hotel, say you are looking to book a stay but you'd like some info on entertainment first. Ask who is playing there in one month. Better yet, say you are a writer for some imaginary Hotel magazine and are doing a story on Hotels that have jazz and want to research the players and hotel before your trip.

[Gary75]

Well, you were right Aidan, just took the advice of Cygnus64, checked the website, and sure enough it's in his name, I'm so pissed off right now.

[Tonysounds]

Well, you were right Aidan, just took the advice of Cygnus64, checked the website, and sure enough it's in his name, I'm so pissed off right now.

 

Was that EVER in question?

[Gary75]

It was wishful thinking Tony. He has changed the name, it's now 'quartet' instead of band at the en of his name.

 

Spoke to the drummer, he's more or less been treated the same way in terms of unresponsiveness, and pretty much feels the same way. But you know what, I think I'm going to keep quiet for the time being, take the money, do nothing to help apart from turn up and play. The originals band I'll start refusing unpaid gigs, he'll get the message sooner rather than later.

 

Meanwhile my true efforts will be spent on people who don't want to take over the world.

[Legatoboy]

Jeff,

 

The band I was in, just before I entered toured and opened for Great Southern (Dicky Betts Band?) on the main stage not the parking lot for 2 or 3 2-3 month tours in CA and the east coast in the late 90's - 2000. Some of the stories were upsetting to hear about DB. Don't know him (DB), not that interested actually but after 40's in the corp. world and gigging I find most abuse stories interesting and to hear it in my friends voice and the way it was described . .

 

but, yes you have to make a decision at some point. Looks like my time had come in regard to my band. could feel it. This has happened before with this band. This time I don't feel like a victim or feel like anything actually, just feel connected, not overly upset. That was the clue to myself, it's time. This was not a for free band.

 

Right now I would like to stay home, play and just session . Back to the piano/instruments and apply what I have learned in my Jazz studies. The idea of gigging doesn't appeal to me after 12+ years.

 

"just isn't a good leader"..You have no idea how loaded this is. This was a major point of our drummer when she left. She was riffing off a remark I made to her on a long gig drive to make us both feel better. I said half halfheartedly "He's a Good Leader" after he was nasty to the band during a far away gig we doubled up driving on in a hurricane in NJ. She unleashed it on him when she left. I had no idea it festered in her for more than 2 years.

"Your not a Good Leader XXXXX" she said and that's part of why I'm going...inflicted pain back. Had so much in it. His head almost screwed itself off after that one!

 

No this was a totalitarian regime. Not that you couldn't say anything, it was just more trouble than it was worth. On the other side though were steady and good gigs and decent steady pay and there Was friendship within terms though it seems. I can't be stick man forever.

 

"A person who ignores input from his team just isn't a good leader" . . .

 

It wasn't just ignored, it was categorically dismantled and put down and stomped on almost immediately by the storm troopers. Just thick headed arm/mind bending and manipulation too. Disgusting to watch and be around, I'm getting too old to be around this greazy kid stuff. I managed to get myself fired on a trumped up charge and some fans are upset. I was upset too a bit. Other mechanisms were in place anyway! too much drama and show & not enough music

 

The DB story that sticks to mind was how he apparently made the stage mix person walk on his knees down the whole isle of the tour bus and ask 'sire' for forgiveness in front of the rest of the crew for screwing up a stage mix or something like that. This was told to me by our harp player who witnessed it first had. That's just plain abusive. I worked in the film business briefly while in my mid 20's as a tech and though things like that don't happen outright, the fear vibe in terms of a perception of or actual screwing up is similar. Big $$ in film business, Otto is ever present.

 

I found this movie very inspiring in terms of some of this, especially my my recent gig:

 

A Face In The Crowd . . .

 

Enough of the soap opera, I've exercised enough (to much)

[Legatoboy]

Profd:

 

"Once your term is complete, hopefully, you will take heed to these "lessons" and be in a better position to do your own thing whether it is an organ trio and/or running a band.

 

In the meantime, grin and bear it. Learn as much as possible under this tutelage."

 

I'm out of there, it wasn't all bad but there is palpable feeling of "the term is over". I want to be in charge of my own expression. This whole perception thing out there is getting weird. Economics played in to it.

[Gary75]

I thought I'd reignite this thread after today's events!

 

To quickly reiterate. Played in originals band, band name was frontmans name, and all his compositions. Mostly played free gigs for him, but felt fairly used. He got a jazz covers residency with me and rhythm section. Same name for the standards gig...you get the picture.

 

Originals band all but folded now, but he intends to get another band going. I told him I wouldn't be doing any more free gigs today.

 

He's basically said if I won't do his free gigs, then he's kicking me out of the monthly paid gig as its not right I should do that, despite it being a standards gig and not related to his originals. (Of course it's not).

 

Despite doing every single gig offered by the originals, and every other band member turning down multiple gigs in the past - because I have laid my cards on the table now rather than when gigs come in that are free, I'm the one who gets the axe. He had a dep for me for the first time last night, and as he's going to be working 'with him a lot doing a couple of gigs over the next few months' (heavy days eh), then he should do everything with him, meaning the paid gig.

 

I'm not fussed, I can cover that gig by doing other stuff more popular to get gigs with.

 

There's a nice relief about it all, as it was cringeworthy to see the blatant self promotion.

 

I think the annoying thing is the fact that he's using the one gig a month as the bait for freebies, but hey ho, it's no big loss.

 

I had expected it, but it chalks another one up in the pretentious prick category.

 

Hopefully he'll see this

[kanker.]

[wmp]

I read your first post and your last, but not the discussion.

 

If he's the band leader, writes the material, gets the gigs, and pays the help, he's the boss. Nothing I hate more than hiring somebody and having them think they're in management. I take input from my people. Better suggestions have replaced most my original tune list, but nobody questions the boss's decisions. If you want to go in another direction, go.

 

I do not do free gigs. Period. In the incredibly unlikely event that I ever decide to do one because I think it's good business I'll still pay the band. This guy sounds like a dick and a lame businessman.

[Pa Gherkin]

b3boy,I really think you did the right thing by telling this jerk adios. Congratulations. Constant exposure to people like your ex bandleader can eat you alive. Been there. Give yourself a pat on the back and move onward and upward. Best of luck to you.

[wmp]

Constant exposure to people like your ex bandleader can eat you alive. Been there. Give yourself a pat on the back and move onward and upward.

+∞ <-- That was plus infinity before the internet fixed it for me.

 

Spending time and energy with the wrong people doing the wrong stuff deprives you of the time necessary to look for and do something right.

[opdigits]

...pretentious prick...

Will that be the name of his new band?

[Bill H.]

Hopefully you made a few contacts while working for this guy that you can now use for yourself. It's something I've done in the past in your situation, and it did help.

[Bobadohshe]

Good job. On to better things.

[Gary75]

Thank you for your support guys, I can rely on you all here to call it as it is. As for my response, I actually thought about never ever responding. I figure it would be better to leave him always wondering what I thought. It may not matter to him, but he'll always be expecting a response. I figure I can spend that time doing something constructive instead of going down a non-repairable road.

 

[David Loving]

You handled this well. I'd not spend another second on this matter. He can call you if he wants to hire you again. Well done

[allan_evett]

I thought I'd reignite this thread after today's events!

 

To quickly reiterate. Played in originals band, band name was frontmans name, and all his compositions. Mostly played free gigs for him, but felt fairly used. He got a jazz covers residency with me and rhythm section. Same name for the standards gig...you get the picture.

 

Originals band all but folded now, but he intends to get another band going. I told him I wouldn't be doing any more free gigs today.

 

He's basically said if I won't do his free gigs, then he's kicking me out of the monthly paid gig as its not right I should do that, despite it being a standards gig and not related to his originals. (Of course it's not).

 

Despite doing every single gig offered by the originals, and every other band member turning down multiple gigs in the past - because I have laid my cards on the table now rather than when gigs come in that are free, I'm the one who gets the axe. He had a dep for me for the first time last night, and as he's going to be working 'with him a lot doing a couple of gigs over the next few months' (heavy days eh), then he should do everything with him, meaning the paid gig.

 

I'm not fussed, I can cover that gig by doing other stuff more popular to get gigs with.

 

There's a nice relief about it all, as it was cringeworthy to see the blatant self promotion.

 

I think the annoying thing is the fact that he's using the one gig a month as the bait for freebies, but hey ho, it's no big loss.

 

I had expected it, but it chalks another one up in the pretentious prick category.

 

Hopefully he'll see this

 

Good call ! I'd have done the same. When I arrived in CO, mid 2008, I had a monthly, one night blues/rock gig. Thankfully there were gigs with a classic rock band, and some subbing dates for a big band as well; the blues/rock gig paid $65, for a Saturday. The bandleader for that gig acted as if it should be my priority. He constantly bugged me to drive up to his place in the mountains - at least 1&1/2 hours away - to rehearse the handful of originals of his we played; dude was puzzled as to why I wouldn't give up a teaching night for that.... Refusing to do a freebie for 'exposure' was the final straw; I was promptly fired, heaven's to Murgatroyd. What a heartbreaker....

[MonksDream]

There is nothing wrong with someone asking you to play for free. There is something very wrong with someone expecting it. You did the right thing, b3boy! Good luck to you in your future endeavours!