Should I be slightly annoyed?

[Gary75]

Ok, so I'm in an originals band, the bandleader writes the songs, and the bandname is his name with 'The' and 'Band' before and after. It's started to niggle lately that it all appears to be about promoting himself, in which ever way possible.

 

Anyway, he's now got four of us out of the 7 in the band a residency that is a jazz gig. It's paid, which is good, but today with no warning, he sends us a list of songs we are doing for the jazz gig. No discussion or opportunity as a group to pick, ( I even suggested a couple of songs a couple of weeks ago that have not been included). Also in the set is two originals he's wrote. And I now get the feeling the jazz gigs are going to be in his name, despite it being a completely seperate entity.

 

Should I bite my lip and take the dough, or express my concern at the over controlling nature of it all?

[mcgoo]

Kinda depends. I'm a sideman for my gig. Show up, play, go home, get a check in the mail. No dealing with booking, marketing, business, etc. I like it that way. Her name, her glory. She charges what she wants, takes what she wants, pays me whatever she can get away with. Her challenge is to keep me happy. So far, so good.

 

If that's the case, take the $$$ & run. If it's more of a band & everyone is carrying an extra load, well, there's need for discussion. You'll have to determine which camp you fall into.

[Cygnus64]

No discussion or opportunity as a group to pick, (

That's because you aren't in a group. As Mcgoo said, he's a sideman. You are too. When there's one guy's name on the Marquee, he's the guy. He's Prince, you're the Revolution.

 

Show up, play, go home, get a check in the mail. No dealing with booking, marketing, business, etc. I like it that way. Her name, her glory. She charges what she wants, takes what she wants, pays me whatever she can get away with. Her challenge is to keep me happy. So far, so good.

 

In my world it goes a step further: gig fall through? No problem, just send me my check. There are a lot of advantages to being an "employee".

[JeffLearman]

When there's one guy's name on the Marquee, he's the guy. He's Prince, you're the Revolution.

LOL, yeah, and guess what you revolve around (along with the world)!

 

It's your choice. It would annoy me, but I'm an amateur.

 

BTW, in "real world" jobs, at least ones where they value the employees because they're not trivial to replace, good bosses engage their employees, encourage feedback, and build teamwork, simply because they get better results that way. If this guy pays zero heed to what you think, then either he's an idiot, or he thinks you're easily replaced (in which case he's merely a dick).

 

But also in the real world, there are a lot of jobs where we work for idiots and/or dicks. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to work for one. Or not. If you do, keep the bright sides in mind as mentioned above.

[Cygnus64]

BTW, in "real world" jobs, at least ones where they value the employees because they're not trivial to replace, good bosses engage their employees, encourage feedback, and build teamwork, simply because they get better results that way. If this guy pays zero heed to what you think, then either he's an idiot, or he thinks you're easily replaced (in which case he's merely a dick).

 

 

So far, B3boy hasn't given any indication that "the guy" is being a dick, only that he's calling the shots. If I were "Prince" in this situation, I would too. It's his show. I guess it depends on how it was originally discussed, but it seems pretty obvious that naming the "band" after one guy means that it's all about the guy.

 

I love being "The Revolution". No problems, no meetings, just tell me where the gig is and have my check ready.

[ITGITC]

I would let it go.

 

But, I do tend to over-think things like this.

 

If the money is good...

 

I would let it go, or at least try really hard.

 

Good luck!

 

Tom

 

[Gary75]

No, I don't think he's being a dick, look we get paid zero in his originals band, apart from odd gigs, we gig about once or twice a month with the originals. Because of the name, and zero money, I decided at least that I wouldn't DI crappy gigs just to promote him. If I'm getting paid nothing, then I'm doing it in nice places, not dives.

 

No, he just text and said he'd sorted a residency once a month, £140 a man, free accommodation, food and drink. It sounds like a great monthly get out doing covers. He's certainly come good in that respect. I just sometimes cringe at the blatant self promotion he's undertaking.

 

I think I'll keep quiet, take the money and focus on another project where the agenda is slightly less one sided. Thanks for your opinions guys.

[Tonysounds]

No, I don't think he's being a dick, look we get paid zero in his originals band. If I'm getting paid nothing, then I'm doing it in nice places, not dives.

 

This is really a different scenario. Originals or covers, if youre getting paid nothing, that seems a little awry to me.

 

So if theres no immediate financial remuneration then there should be a payout later, and with a Me and The Fill in The Blank kind of situation, I wouldnt hold my breath.

 

 

...he just text and said he'd sorted a residency once a month, £140 a man, free accommodation, food and drink. It sounds like a great monthly get out doing covers. He's certainly come good in that respect. I just sometimes cringe at the blatant self promotion he's undertaking.

 

See my above response.

[Bobadohshe]

I think I'll keep quiet, take the money and focus on another project where the agenda is slightly less one sided. Thanks for your opinions guys.

 

I think so. If he books a gig that gets you room board and £140, then he can promote himself all he wants. If you want to promote yourself, book your own gig and pay people what you want.

[Joe Muscara]

It does suck when you want some creative input (not even control), but if the gigs are otherwise good or you're getting something out of them, just find yourself another outlet.

[JeffLearman]

Well, I think he's being foolish to completely ignore suggestions from the crew. Self promotion -- no problem; it's his gig. (For the no pay gigs, though, unless you enjoy them there's little point is there?)

 

Suggestions deserve feedback, even if it's "Well, I don't think those would quite fit in," or "That tune doesn't work for me."

 

But I can see playing with people who are annoying in some way. The guitarist in the soul band I'm in has nixed every song suggestion I've made, except one (and that one, the trombone player won't play because he sequenced a way-over-the-top-too-many-notes horn part for it.) Regardless, it's a fun band to play in, with pretty minimal drama despite 8 people.

 

Joe covered the bottom line, but I think you knew that already.

[Delaware Dave]

If you consider yourself part of the band then you better speak up or this will set the stage for being the norm and you can expect more of the same going forward. If you consider yourself a hired gun then you need to get over it.

[Michael Wright]

If you consider yourself part of the band then you better speak up or this will set the stage for being the norm and you can expect more of the same going forward. If you consider yourself a hired gun then you need to get over it.

 

Delaware Dave seems to have nailed it. I have encountered situations in which the structure of the band is not very well defined. Sorting that out may help decide what are acceptable terms for you. Cheers Mike

[BluesKeys]

Look at it this way, the covers gig IS paying. If this self promotion creates a following for HIM and you play in the originals project. It could pay off for the originals project when he can show up at an originals venue with a decent following. Club owners here pay more for those bands because they see the house packed on those nights. Maybe non paying gigs will become profitable.

 

Win Win is how I see it.

[hoggernick]

I played in "The xxxxxx Band" with a guy for a couple of years, he chose all the tunes, booked the gigs, and paid everybody as little as he could get away with. It was OK, but he's been through practically every musician in town. As his rates went up, his cut went up, and the band's cut stayed low. There's was no future in it. If he had made it big (or does), I have no doubt he would drop his band in a heartbeat if it benefitted him. Perhaps your guy isn't like that.

 

I wouldn't do the free gigs. If I'm going to do something for free, it needs to be something that allows for creative freedom. Maybe get another project going on the side where you can enjoy creative freedom, and do the paying cover gigs for the money, and the fun. Hopefully it's fun. If it ain't fun, then find something that is fun.

[Michelle ggurl]

Ask yourself this: if the guy called you out of the blue and said, "I am Joe Bloe and I have a jazz band called The Joe Bloe Explosion. I got your name from a mutual friend who said you'd be a great match for this gig I have. It's 140 quid a (what, gig, weekend?) and I have a set list. Are you interested?"

 

Would you do it? Because if he's paying you and he did all the promotion and hustle to get the gig, it's his gig. It doesn't sound like a band gig. Perhaps the misgivings you have are because it's treated as an extension of the originals project; but it sounds like a different scenario together. It's possible what you don't care for is being taken for granted, that he assumed you'd want to do it. And it could also be that he thinks that he is finally able to get you guys a paying gig, doing what he's always done -- that is, call the shots -- and he is just glad to have this opportunity for you all to do together.

 

That doesn't mean you have to do this gig. If you can pinpoint your dissatisfaction (no pay? No input? You don't really want to play the jazz gigs? Concerned about direction? Etc) then it seems it's worth talking to him about them, otherwise the resentment is just gonna grow.

 

Another thought: seems you are being treated as a sideman in both endeavors this singer has. The fact that you are not paid but get little (or no?) creative input in the originals band is probably contributing to how you feel about this new jazz gig opportunity in a big way. Even if it's paid, you have unsettled feelings about it. I personally have never habitually earned or paid nothing as a side player or leader of an originals band. I think it contributes to "bandmates" feeling like they are owed more creative input than the leader is willing to relinquish. Just another thought ...

[Aidan]

Another thought: seems you are being treated as a sideman in both endeavors this singer has. The fact that you are not paid but get little (or no?) creative input in the originals band is probably contributing to how you feel about this new jazz gig opportunity in a big way.

 

Michelle, I was thinking the same thing.

 

Gary, if you're not being paid for the originals gigs, from a commercial point of view I'd say you need to total up all the gigs you're being asked to fulfil and average out the turnover.

 

If it turns out you're mostly doing these commercial gigs, with the odd unpaid here and there, it shouldn't hit the average too much. If these paid gigs are in a minority, the average you're actually "earning" per gig may be down on the floor. You then need to ask yourself: "Would I play a gig for that kind of money?"

 

The point at which you do this may not be now, of course. If this commercial work is really just beginning to take off, it may be worth your while to hang in there for a while and see how things develop.

 

But I'd forget about "input" because that's never going to happen. This is quite clearly his band and you're the hired gun. As someone on the other side of that relationship, I can tell you there are distinct advantages in being where you are, hence my own current quest.

[Gary75]

Interesting opinions everyone. As Michelle states, when it's laid out like that, somebody rings, offers you £140 a gig with overnight stay at venue, free food and drink, I'd snap it up and consider myself a hired gun. There's definitely an issue of baggage from playing in the originals band. It's because he expects us to work for nothing in the originals, yet all the creative control, and name remains to him. I'm not the only one in the band who has these feelings, but unfortunately there's also an aspect of friendships of many years involved, particularly with the others. They just don't have it in them to say anything, although I do know our bassist in particular is turning down gigs with him purely because of no money.

 

It's one thing to nip out for half an hour drive to do a local gig and not incur much travel costs, it's another to be out of pocket from it. He's not a vocalist by the way, he's multi instrumentalist and tries to make sure everyone knows that.

 

Am I jealous? I don't think so, I think it's more a case of being taken advantage for. I'll be honest if I could drop the originals band and retain the jazz cover (although he seems determined to stamp his songwriting in that too) I'd be happy, but I doubt he'd accept that situation.

 

It's almost a case of if I don't tow the line with the originals ill lose out on a good paid gig with the chance of more (local venue checking us out on first night for wedding gigs).

 

As for my own outlet, yes, as soon as I'm finished my degree in a few days, I'm going to progress on that score for sure. In fact the bassist and drummer from the originals/jazz gigs have asked to form an organ trio, and I'm quite keen on this Ableton Live stuff now seeing as I have been using it all term.

 

As an addition to what I have already wrote, one thing that is pissing me off lately, is his unresponsiveness to texts. He said we had a gig at a show this weekend, (loads of models, well up for it!) however when I checked this week about it, he didn't bother replying, so I presume it's not happening. Same as texts on creative input, nothing. It's those things which are starting to grate on me big time

[Cygnus64]

one thing that is pissing me off lately, is his unresponsiveness to texts. He said we had a gig at a show this weekend, (loads of models, well up for it!) however when I checked this week about it, he didn't bother replying, so I presume it's not happening.

 

Aaaah. In other words, he's a dick. Walk away.

 

 

[Legatoboy]

I have been in a band like this for years, The XXX YYYYY Band. The leader has become (more) abusive lately, he was always abusive to his players intermittently on top of us not being able to put our input in. The gigs were plentiful for many years many pretty good and above the norm for a regional/local band here but with the economy now and things getting tight all over it has gotten difficult and his tail has started to show again. I have exited, the last of the heard, all the original players gone now, sad in a way (for him and us). You know a number of people (fans) have noticed that and mentioned to me that bands now seem to be made up this way. One person with a name to carry and their band. The feeling I get is they do not necessarily like that. The Otto Preminger with a riding crop/ Dicky Betts/Buffy Rich syndrome. People like group efforts or at least the appearance on that I think.

[ProfD]

Creative folks will always be at the mercy of others especially if they cannot and/or are unwilling to engage in the business side of music. There are pros and cons to being a follower or leader.

 

The reality is that there will always be a crop of "hungry" musos capable of "getting the job done" i.e. insuring the bandleader gets paid. Musos have to decide how badly they want the gig.

 

To the OP, from reading some of your posts, I believe this indentured servitude with a few perks is tied to your education.

 

Once your term is complete, hopefully, you will take heed to these "lessons" and be in a better position to do your own thing whether it is an organ trio and/or running a band.

 

In the meantime, grin and bear it. Learn as much as possible under this tutelage.

[Michelle ggurl]

I agree w Prof. Sounds like perhaps the leader's dickishness has gotten worse now that he has this paying gig? Like, maybe he's using it as leverage to make sure everyone stays onboard with the originals project? I'm sorry, man. It sounds like an unpleasant situation.

 

What I've learned, the hard way, is that there is no such things as "the point of no return." sometimes you really ARE just throwing good effort after bad, and it ain't ever gonna turn around. So with that perspective in mind, I'd recommend coming to terms with what it'd be like for you to not be in either of his bands. Look to the future. Have that as your Plan B (or A, if you wish). Then go to him and say, "look man, I can't do the originals band anymore. I will be available for the jazz gig, just let me know the details." and prepare to have him not call you for either. I know that sucks, but I'm getting the impression that this guy is a dick and has been stringing you all on and making like it's a "band" when he knew all along that he was never going to make it about anyone but him. He maybe did this consciously, to avoid paying for services (but that's what you do, out of pocket, sometimes as a startup), or subconsciously, because he's bad at planning and/or communicating. At any rate, you can stop making that your problem.

 

Maybe he will still call you for just the jazz gig, you never know. But I'd say be prepared to walk away from it all if you bring up your refusal to continue the indentured servitude in his other project. Good luck. Sigh.

[JeffLearman]

Well, you can't be taken advantage of, you can only give it. If you're willing, there's no reason he shouldn't do what he does. It's up to you. If the mixture of enjoyment, education, and money add up to enough for you, that's fine. Whenever they don't, you know where the door is: use it.

 

But, I have to say I don't understand being in a "for free" band where one person calls the shots, unless that person is truly extroardinary and inspiring. Yup, I've known some musos where I'd take that gig in a flash and never make a pip. However, the ones I know wouldn't ignore my suggestions either (they happen to be decent people and good leaders, in addition to being amazing musicians).

 

A person who ignores input from his team just isn't a good leader. (That's more mature than calling him a dick, as I did earlier.) But it's up to you whether that matters or not. I've played with people who weren't good leaders before, too, and enjoyed it. But it's way better with good leaders!

 

Legatoboy: I'm a Dicky Betts fan but don't know anything about him personally. Is he really an ogre bandleader? I certainly have heard the stories about Buddy Rich and Miles Davis.

[Michelle ggurl]

Upon readig your last post, Gary, it appears this guy has some business acumen. I don't see your misgivings as jealousy at all. I see it as correctly placed resentment. It really feels like he's been holding out on you guys. Not that he's been getting paid, but to not cover your gas, to not add originals into a program that would allow everyone to be paid (hell, that's what I do! I have an "originals" band but we play plenty of standards; we almost never play for free, and my guys certainly don't -- unless they volunteer to on the two gigs we had like that -- and we have a blast, I drive the creative content and direction, and everyone's happy!), to be uncommunicative ... This all seems like it's on purpose. If the light bulb went off in his head that he could get paying gigs by adding some recognizable material into his sets, he should have told you all that and thanked you for sticking with him, and he should be telling you how he's planning on moving forward.

[Tonysounds]

There's definitely an issue of baggage from playing in the originals band. It's because he expects us to work for nothing in the originals, yet all the creative control, and name remains to him. I'm not the only one in the band who has these feelings.....It's almost a case of if I don't tow the line with the originals ill lose out on a good paid gig with the chance of more (local venue checking us out on first night for wedding gigs)...an addition to what I have already wrote, one thing that is pissing me off lately, is his unresponsiveness to texts. He said we had a gig at a show this weekend, (loads of models, well up for it!) however when I checked this week about it, he didn't bother replying, so I presume it's not happening.

 

Heres the thing: everyone, posters in this thread, yourself, and your bandleader, are confusing the issue. There are two bands here, regardless of the leadership, and the membership.

Band #1-original non-earning project playing the songs written by, lead by, and controlled by The Dude, with no creative input allowed, and likely no input of any other kind either.

Band #2-jazz covers gig (with impending original compositions by The Dude), earning a decent (?) wage, with no creative input allowed, and likely no input of any other kind either.

Comingling Band #1 and Band #2 is your problem. Band #1 offers no creative outlet for you, and no financial reward. So why do it? It is eating your time and your soul apparently. Adios! Band #2 offers you financial reward, yet no creative reward. So, if the money is worth the heartache, take it. If not, walk away, problem solved.

Leader holding paying jazz gigs over your head to keep you playing his originals (control you) is your dysfunction. If no other logic rings true for you, look at it this way: take the amount you earn in a month with The Dude, and average it out with the time you spend doing ALL gigs with him (paying and non-paying). Is it still lucrative? Then keep them. If it is not, Adios! But quit whining about it, as eventually, regardless of how big a douchebag he is, you will be the one who gets a reputation. Personally, I wouldnt confuse/comingle the two projects, and I wouldnt let him confuse them either. If creative input is important to you, let him know pointblank that since that is a labor of love with no financial reward, you will be stepping down from the original project if you arent allowed to contribute, and hes not offering something in lieu of that, but that you are happy to remain in his jazz covers gig for pay. If he doesnt like that, walk.

Its not that hard.

But take this advice: if you are not already writing songs, or composing instrumental music, dont your bandmates frustration feed a jones that you currently dont even have. (It wont change my advice, but its something to watch out for.) Im always amazed at the originals snobbery by musicians who dont write. If youre a sideman, be treated as one (with $$$), dont let yourself be treated like a slave.

 

[Joe Muscara]

But take this advice: if you are not already writing songs, or composing instrumental music, dont your bandmates frustration feed a jones that you currently dont even have. (It wont change my advice, but its something to watch out for.) Im always amazed at the originals snobbery by musicians who dont write. If youre a sideman, be treated as one (with $$$), dont let yourself be treated like a slave.

Are you saying that if you don't or aren't writing, you should not be a "snob" about playing originals? If you are a sideman, take the gig, whether the songs are originals or covers?

[Tonysounds]

But take this advice: if you are not already writing songs, or composing instrumental music, dont let your bandmates frustration feed a jones that you currently dont even have. (It wont change my advice, but its something to watch out for.) Im always amazed at the originals snobbery by musicians who dont write. If youre a sideman, be treated as one (with $$$), dont let yourself be treated like a slave.

Are you saying that if you don't or aren't writing, you should not be a "snob" about playing originals? If you are a sideman, take the gig, whether the songs are originals or covers?

 

No, Joe, I didnt say that at all, and didnt even hint at that. But to make things clearer, Ill put it in terms I know you can relate to (based on my assumed knowledge of things you like, based on what Ive seen here):

 

Benmont Tench is one of the premier sidemen on the planet. Ive never heard him once say in an interview Tom Petty runs the show, their his songs, he calls the shots, I get no creative input whatsoever, I am frustrated. Rami Jaffe, same thing. Yet if you were a songwriter, or your band was in the studio and needed some keys for your songs, those would be the guys youd want if you could get them. Benmont especially has built an impressive career on being the guy who knows the right thing to play (or more often, NOT play) to make someone elses material better. If he had a jones to have more creative input, he would have put out an album by now, Im guessing. (Or, rather than risk critical/financial insult, has been doing it all along, for his own enjoyment and not releasing it.)

But then there are those musicians who seem to always go oh, its a cover band? No thanks, and yet will gripe that theyre either not in a band at all, or balk and doing someone elses originals because they dont have enough creative input. My experience on this rock has shown me that songwriters are songwriters (the act of doing makes them so) whether they are in a band or not, and that there are many musicians who think theyre songwriters, or blame their non-songwriting on circumstances beyond their control (i.e., he wont let me).

I just warn to not let his fellow partners-in-crime put him into a mental trickbag (which Ive seen happen, and to actually financially attractive bands).

I dont subscribe to the thinking that playing covers is beneath me (even though there was a time in my life where I wouldnt be caught dead doing it, just because of politics) or any other musician. I think if you can earn money playing music, you have the cat by the tail. And while most of what I do anymore consists of playing covers (for money!), I dont hesitate at an opportunity that allows me to put my Benmont hat on and try to help out music I think is good and that I could make even just a hair bettereven if it doesnt pay. (But thats because I like the people or the musicand generally both.)

 

[Tonysounds]

But I did say, and I am saying, that if you need creative input, and the originals situation is stifling that and impeding your enjoyment, don't let the jazz covers gig rule your move on the originals project, unless it's so lucrative, you can't pass it up. (Again, average out the $$ with the time spent on both projects to determine that answer.) And if it turns out that it is that lucrative, then don't whine about the situation as inevitably it will find its way back to the leader, and you'll find yourself without both gigs, but with a reputation.

[Aidan]

If no other logic rings true for you, look at it this way: take the amount you earn in a month with The Dude, and average it out with the time you spend doing ALL gigs with him (paying and non-paying). Is it still lucrative? Then keep them. If it is not, Adios!

 

This was the point I made a few posts back. But I understand Gary's dilemma here. Because the paying side is so new, at the moment it's difficult to know how this will pan out. That's why I suggested the time for doing this particular bit of maths may not be now.

 

Btw Tony, I've met Gary and someone with less of an "attitude problem" would be hard to find, IMO. Although Gary hasn't spelled out the exact relationship between him and the bandleader, I am aware of it myself, and it doesn't make the situation any easier to handle. I don't think Gary is whining, just trying to figure out which way to jump.

 

My advice as the situation stands, FWIW, is in the absence of a more lucrative firm offer from elsewhere, hold in there for a bit, then revisit the math session.

[Tonysounds]

If no other logic rings true for you, look at it this way: take the amount you earn in a month with The Dude, and average it out with the time you spend doing ALL gigs with him (paying and non-paying). Is it still lucrative? Then keep them. If it is not, Adios!

 

This was the point I made a few posts back. .... I don't think Gary is whining, just trying to figure out which way to jump.

 

Good advice is good advice! Great minds think alike!

 

I dont mean to suggest that Gary is whining; I only advise that once he makes the determination whether the $$$ is enough, that he then either put up or shut up. At that point, if you take the money while abhorring the situation and complain about it, it is officially and literally whining.