Gear advice, please!

[MarKeys]

Hello all -- when I saw the great Ventilator discussions here, I had to register and kindly request some much needed advice.

I'm fairly new to gigging with a band. My main role is adding B-3/Leslie parts, but occasionally piano, Rhodes, even funky clav stuff (think Withers' "Use Me Up"). Right now I have an old crappy keyboard I'm using with midi through a Voce V-5, then old Motion Sound Pro3 and MS KT-80 amp. And separate HEAVY 88-key board for piano, etc. The organ sound has never seemed right to me, and now I want a better sound.

So: Nord Electro? (takes care of all different instrument sounds in one neat, easy -- and red! -- package). Keep the V5 and buy a Neo Vent? (means still lugging lots o' stuff around). A midi controller and Neo Vent? Or a keyboard with OK piano and Rhodes that I can midi to the V5? Or get some used thing like Korg CX3 or something similar?

I don't have a ton to spend on this; would love to get some new great Hammond stuff, but no can do. And I'll add that I checked and it turns out I'm not getting any younger: Lugging all the stuff I have now is bringin' me down.

Thanks for any and all thoughts and advice!

- Mark

 

[mate stubb]

The first test that the Electro has to pass is this: do you need to play more than one sound at a time?

 

[MarKeys]

Generally no -- I HAVE, but it's not essential. Getting a great Hammond-Leslie sound (and acceptable key action) I'd say is 80% of what I need most.

[David Loving]

Run the V5 through a ventilator.

[Aidan]

I was about to put a +1 on Daviel's call when I noticed your cri de coeur about lugging too much stuff. So I think that probably brings you to the Electro.

 

But then, the next question you need to answer is, will you be happy playing piano sounds on that keybed? If not, then you might need to think about a second purchase. If we're keeping things light, the obvious recommendation there would be a Casio Privia PX3 or similar for your piano sounds.

 

If you only want to schlep one board, and you can live with playing organ from a weighted action, my vote would be Nord Electro HP.

 

However, not knowing exactly how much your budget is makes it difficult to be too specific here.

[Dave Pierce]

Well, if you start with an Electro, you'll get great Hammond sounds with excellent Hammond action, plus great piano, EP and clav sounds with not so good action.

 

This gives you two options:

 

1. Gig with just the Electro, compromising piano action for weight and complexity

2. Gig with the Electro and your heavy 88 board, compromising weight for better action

 

Then of course, when so more cash comes your way you can swap out the 88 board later.

 

I gigged with an Electro as my "top board" for many years, and I loved it. I eventually replaced it with a Hammond XK-3c, but I have no regrets about the Electro.

 

--Dave

[AnotherScott]

Yes, total budget will make a difference in the recommendations here. Related to that, when you mention the Electro possibility, are you talking about a current model (Electro 3), or a used older version?

[JeffLearman]

You don't want an NE2 for piano. It has a piano which is good enough for practice but not good enough for gigging, IMHO. (Well, not good enough for me. I was a fan of a band where the kb player used an NE2 only, and it worked for them, but he mostly used the piano for high chinks and only the occasional intro or full-bodied piano part, where the weakness was obvious. I bet he uses an NE3 now; it didn't exist then.)

 

I suggest a Ventilator, and a Privia or Yamaha P95 piano. It's still a bit of kit, but for just over $1K you get remarkably good sounds. Replacing your heavy DP with a light one will help a lot!

 

But if reducing your kit is more important, consider the NE3. There are two 73-key versions: the original which has semi-weighted action, and the HP version which is hammer-action. Take your pick; either way it's a compromise when playing the instruments with the opposite action.

 

I have an NE2 that I use over a DP and I love it, but my DP is on its last legs. I'm seriously considering getting an NE3HP to put underneath it, despite the fact that I'd have a lot of overlap in capability between the two boards. But I'd rather have the NE3HP with a decent piano for rehearsal, while keeping the NE2 as a good top board.

 

You can get a decent deal on an NE2 these days, though, so I wouldn't rule that out entirely, especially if you keep your DP.

 

The NE3 has a much better sounding Leslie sim, and reverb (which I don't miss). It has a worse control layout. But it has MUCH better acoustic pianos and also the ability to add samples for things like strings and brass. It's a considerably better instrument, and the street prices for used ones reflect that.

 

The worst feature of the NE 73-key semi-weighted boards is the F-to-F layout. For the NE2, there's a way to fix that, and it might work for NE3 as well (but does not work for Stage 2, according to Nord). You have to be a little bit handy to do the mod, but not a master.

 

Before I modified mine, I almost wished I'd got a 61-key, even though I hate playing piano on less than 73.

[CEB]

Screw that. If you are going to spend the kind of money that will buy an Electro and you want a one stop keyboard go with a multi-timbre board and get something like a Roland VR-760. The only way I would consider an Electro for gigging is as a 2nd adjunct board.

 

But if you really want to use 2 boards then get whatever you want but my impression was you wanted a single board.

 

PS VR-700 is the current model. 76 keys street price $1999 US.

[B3bluesman59]

If we're keeping things light, the obvious recommendation there would be a Casio Privia PX3 or similar for your piano sounds.

________________________________________________________________

The PX3 has decent piano and EP sounds, weighted keys, and weighs just 23 lbs.....and it also has some pretty good Hammond stuff. The PX3 with a Vent would be good fit for what you are looking for. And the PX3 is in the $650 price range. I have been using one for over a year gigging a couple times a week....no problems.

 

[JeffLearman]

Right, or you can often find a CDP-100 for $250 on Craigslist (or other models, but beware that many Privia models have only USB MIDI and not regular MIDI connectors, if that matters to you. Also beware that non PX models sometimes are built into cabinets; you want a PX or CDP model that's portable.)

[Bob L]

If you can deal with organ sounds but no drawbars the Privia PX3 is not bad. Piano and EP sounds are good. If you want more dedicated organ functionality then Nord (or other clonewheel ) plus a PX3 would be a great rig (low cost and the PX3 is pretty portable).

[Fusker]

I use my Electro as a single board at rehearsal and on occasion for a gig in a tiny space or a quick in and out situation. As others noted, the action sucks for piano, but given it weighs 17 pounds and can cover nearly all my practice sonic needs, I've found it fits the bill. Then it goes on top for larger gigs where it pretty much fills the organ role, and I lug my XS8.

[Outkaster]

Who are you playing with?

[MarKeys]

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

As compromises go, I realize I'd rather have the Hammond-like key action and get by for piano parts (only because the majority of the time, it's organ I'm playing). That's why lugging and setting up my heavy DP has started to feel silly: All that for such little playing? And I'll admit I started salivating at the tone and options with the Neo Vent.

   As for price range, I was aiming for under $1,000, thinking I might be selling some of what I have now to help supplement.

   If I got a semi-weighted-key board with passable organ and decent piano, would the Vent do enough to make it sound as good as a Nord Electro? (Is the Vent that good?) I had been looking for a used NE2 (for budget reasons), but you guys are persuading me away from that. Saw a used xb2 on eBay, but probably I wouldn't like the Leslie sim on that.

   Now I'm wondering: If I splurged for an NE3, would I be as satisfied as some other combo that includes a Vent?

   Would love to be able to get away with just one board, but I don't want a solution that compromises too much. That cri de coeur that Aidan mentioned is really a "crie de back" -- the heart is willing, but the back is complaining...

[Delaware Dave]

From a B3 perspective the NE2 won't provide any better organ tone than the V5 (IMO). So a V5 with a Vent (I use a V5+ with a Vent) will get you there. Depending on what you run the Vent through for amplication will also impact the sound. A V5 through a Vent through a good amplified speaker should suffice nicely. The V5 through a MS Pro 3 (w/o a tube) through a MS KT-80 won't sound nearly as good as a V5 through a Vent through an good amplified speaker. As you mentioned this is your main role then I'd focus on getting a Vent and a good amplified speaker to play it through (or directly through the PA). Then worry about the other stuff which is minor (according to your role you say you play in the band).

[CEB]

Make this guy an offer.

 

http://rochester.craigslist.org/msg/2897652634.html

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPVHTADmK_A

[MarKeys]

Hi Outkaster, I'm playing with Mud Creek. How about you?

 

[MarKeys]

As fate would have it, I just saw both an NE2 and NE3 listed on Craigslist (though 73 keys not 61). Wondering if either of the nord's Leslie sims would be as good as the V5 with the Vent. Maybe it's nitpicking to compare... But they're kind of pricey (1700 firm for the NE3)

 

[AnotherScott]

As for price range, I was aiming for under $1,000, thinking I might be selling some of what I have now to help supplement.

   If I got a semi-weighted-key board with passable organ and decent piano

A semi-weighted board with drawbar organ and decent piano under $1,000 is arguably non-existant. You might make a case for the Casio XW-P1, though I think your Voce is a better organ, and the Casio isn't so great for piano, IMO, and 61 keys is limiting for piano too. The closeout pricing on the Kurzweil PC361 would be the next step up, but it has an unweighted action that I find pretty bad for piano, still just 61 keys, and it tops 30 lbs. Up from there (at least in some respects), you're looking at $2,000 boards from Nord, Hammond, or Roland, though you might get a deal on a used something.

 

I had been looking for a used NE2 (for budget reasons), but you guys are persuading me away from that.

I agree, the Electro 2 doesn't make sense for you. The piano is weak, and I think the organ with its built in Leslie wouldn't be as good as your Voce with a Ventilator.

 

Summing up your needs, I think you want...

* better action for organ than your "old crappy keyboard"

* a decent piano sound

* an improved organ sound

* light weight

* ideally under $1,000

 

I think the answer is to buy

* a Ventilator (for $500 when combined with your Voce, you won't find a better organ sound for less than $2k new)

* a Yamaha NP30/NP31 (under $300, light weight, okay action for organ, passable action for piano, 76 keys, decent piano sound)

 

If you later decide to upgrade from your Voce to some better clone, you'll still probably like having the Ventilator.

 

 

[JeffLearman]

On the other hand, the NE2 would sound considerably better than your Voce (without Ventilator), and it's really quite workable. It only suffers in comparison with the better ones, but definitely does the job. Since you don't play much piano, maybe a used NE2 might be just the ticket. I wouldn't rule it out; maybe you can try it (bring headphones). Plus it's great for practice: I leave a stand and a Behringer B212A powered speaker there, so I only carry a small gear bag, the NE2 on my back, and guitar in hand. One trip!

 

I don't know much about the Roland, though; it might be a better match.

 

Either NE2 or NE3 with a Ventilator would sound at least as good or better than the Voce with a Ventilator, IMHO. The Voce was good for its day but its day has passed.

 

But I also stand by my suggestion, which matches Scott's, if you want a 2-keyboard rig.

[AnotherScott]

On the other hand, the NE2 would sound considerably better than your Voce (without Ventilator)

I'm not sure about that. It's been a while since I played an NE2, but I think it's bottom end was weaker than the Voce, and the key click (and percussion maybe?) was less authentic sounding, plus you could put in a little leakage on the Voce, which I don't think you could do on the NE2. The Voce also has the advantage of real physical drawbars. Of course, the Voce had no leslie sim built in, so you'd have to put it through something, which may or may not be better than the NE2's sim. (The Ventilator, as you allude to as well, would certainly be better.) One thing I think was better about the NE2 is I think it had more high end scream than the Voce, though.

 

I don't know much about the Roland, though; it might be a better match.

The biggest problem with the VR-700 is that it tops 35 lbs. But I think it has one of the best actions around.

 

IBut I also stand by my suggestion, which matches Scott's, if you want a 2-keyboard rig.

Actually, my NP30/NP31 suggestion was still for maintaining a one-keyboard rig (well, one keyboard plus accessories... Voce and Ventilator). I always prefer 2 boards (even if one is just a Microstation), but I know there are situations where someone is determined to go with one!

[jazzdoc52]

That one board will do everything u want . And u won't break ur back

[Delaware Dave]

Either NE2 or NE3 with a Ventilator would sound at least as good or better than the Voce with a Ventilator, IMHO. The Voce was good for its day but its day has passed.

Agree with NE3 comment; NE2? disagree, it's day has also passed and it sounds no better than the Voce (IMHO)....

[MarKeys]

Interesting that mention of the "high-end scream" missing in the Voce. That's one thing I've noticed, but I didn't know if the Voce or the Motion Sound was to blame. And if I got the Vent, I was hoping that would give me the scream. But sounds like maybe not...

The idea of a lightweight board and a Vent is intriguing. Lots of stuff to hook up (the simplicity of Nord and done is appealing), but it might take care of everything.

I'm going to try to at least test out the Nords for sale here and see how they seem. The one guy said he bought the NE2 new last year, even though I thought they stopped making them years ago...

I Googled the NP30 and read the keys are just slightly less than full-size. Then saw an NP11 that said full-sized, but it's even cheaper which makes me wonder... But if it's organ-ish action and passable piano and EP sounds, it might work...

[hoggernick]

Rambling thoughts off the top of my head...

 

Your needs sound almost exactly like mine, except I play a little more EP than organ. I usually wind up playing clav on 4-5 songs per night. I can't stand not having a decent clav. I play AC piano on probably 10 songs. A super realistic piano doesn't work. so I don't have much use for a yamaha NP or Privia. It would never cut through without a bunch of EQ. I like the bright Korg and Roland AC pianos. Rolands have decent clavs, as do Motif. The SV1 had a decent clav, but the action really got to me. I run my clav through a wah pedal and it makes all the difference in the world. I suspect your Voce plus a vent would make for a killer B3. Get a vent and stick a fork in that sound.

 

How much do you value your EP sound? That's my main sound, and nothing satisfied me short of a real rhodes. The SRX12 EP module from Roland is very good though.

 

With all that said, I'd recommend a Roland something or other that supports SRX cards, keep the Voce, get a Ventilator, and a wah pedal that has adjustable frequency (I use a 535Q). That'll get you a nice bright piano, great clav, good EP, a great organ, and if you want better EPs you can buy the SRX12 card for around $150 and stick in the board.

 

One thing you might consider is an additional lightweight 49 or 61-key controller that has nine sliders. I just bought a Roland A-550PRO to use primarily as an organ controller. It's super lightweight, offers tons of MIDI control options regardless of what organ module you wind up using, and it doesn't take up much room as a second-tier keyboard. The A-550 is only 49 keys, but that's all I really need for my organ work. I always wind up stepping on the bass player if I get my left hand in on the action.

[AnotherScott]

Interesting that mention of the "high-end scream" missing in the Voce. That's one thing I've noticed, but I didn't know if the Voce or the Motion Sound was to blame. And if I got the Vent, I was hoping that would give me the scream. But sounds like maybe not...

Yeah... if that's what you're looking for, you may be happier with the Nord... and the E3 is noticeably better than the E2 overall. But I wouldn't call an E3 with its own rotary effect a slam dunk over a Voce with a Ventilator, either. Each is going to have strengths and weaknesses... but if the high scream is what you want, I don't think the Voce will ever give it to you.

 

I Googled the NP30 and read the keys are just slightly less than full-size. Then saw an NP11 that said full-sized, but it's even cheaper which makes me wonder... But if it's organ-ish action and passable piano and EP sounds, it might work...

I think the NP31 (a slightly updated NP30) and NP11 are the same except the NP11 has 61 keys of all one resistance, and the NP30/31 have 76 keys split into 3(?) zones of different resistance. (They're not different *weight* per se, there are no weights, but the force needed to compress the rubber pads below varies.)

[MarKeys]

Which means the E2 is out -- on its own, it sounds like it might disappoint. I'd need either an E3 alone, or the Vent with my Voce...

[MarKeys]

So do guys think the piano and EP sounds on boards like the Yamaha NP30 and other lightweight boards are that much better than those on the NE2?

[AnotherScott]

So do guys think the piano and EP sounds on boards like the Yamaha NP30 and other lightweight boards are that much better than those on the NE2?

Probably better piano, that's all. If you can spend more money but still want to keep the weight down, if you can get by with 61 keys, you'll get better sounds from the Yamaha MOX6 than the NP30. But either way, you're stuck with the Voce for drawbar organ, which you're not happy with. (Though the MOX6 can get some nice organ patches, especially with the B's Knees add-on.)

 

Instead of adding a Ventilator to your Voce, you could also consider a small laptop running VB3, and just using your Voce as a drawbar controller for that. It would probably cost you about the same, and I think may get you more of the sound you want.