Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 So I have a rather complex rig: Keyboards Lower manual - Kurzweil PC3X Upper manual - Nord Stage 88 Modules Korg TR-Rack Yamaha Motif ES-Rack Roland D-550 Alesis QS-R Korg Triton - Rack MIDI connections PC3 Out #1 -> NS88 In PC3 Out #2 -> MIDI Solutions Merger box In #1 NS88 Out -> MIDI Solutions Merger box In #2 MIDI Solutions Merger box Out -> Korg TR-Rack In Korg TR-Rack Thru -> Yamaha Motif ES-Rack In Yamaha Motif ES-Rack Thru -> Roland D-550 In Roland D-550 Thru -> Alesis QS-R In Alesis QS-R Thru -> Korg Triton - Rack In I use the PC3 in Setup mode for the majority of my MIDI controller functions and live performance needs. So last night at rehearsal, while I was able to play Nord Stage programs from the PC3 keybed, I was not able to play any of the modules from the PC3. I don't recall if I was able to play any of the modules from the NS88 (I was a wreck!), don't think so. No sound, and no program changes working as I scrolled through my Setups. I tried re-booting all keyboards/modules multiple times and changed all my MIDI cables to no avail. I ended up limping through rehearsal largely using just the NS88. So this evening, I set everything up, and bravo, everything works just fine! I was able to re-create the problem by disconnecting the PC3 Out #2 -> MIDI Solutions Merger box In #1 cable. But I have no idea what is causing the problem. Loose MIDI jack on the PC3 or MidiMerge box? Unstable PC3 operating system? Would any of you risk down-loading the new OS for the PC3 at this point? Seems like it has a lot of bug fixes. But that won't help a loose MIDI jack, and I am not at all electronically inclined. Big Saint Patricks gig on Saturday night. Very nervous! Thanks to all in advance! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would wait on the OS. One problem at a time! Moe --- "I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker http://www.hotrodmotm.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Is this what you are using?: http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clpete Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If the PC3 is transmitting out to NS it seems unlikely that it is not transmitting out of both out jacks unless its the jack itself. You may want to check/clean the midi jacks in question to insure they are free of anything that could be creating a bad connection. Bits of fiber, lint or what ever could cause a problem. The problem could also be in the Korg TR as its the first module in the midi chain. We play for free. We get paid to set up and tear down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Benhamou Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 My PC3 only has 1 midi out jack. The other 2 are In and Thru. Ian Benhamou Keyboards/Guitar/Vocals [url:https://www.facebook.com/OfficialTheMusicalBox/]The Musical Box[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Moonglow, For a setup of this complexity, it seems prudent to have some kind of a midi monitor handy, just for diagnostics/troubleshooting. An iOS device + iRigMidi+ the Midi Monitor App is the ideal solution. A laptop/small netbook with a $11 Midi->USB cable would also work great. Think of it as a multimeter for Midi. You'd be able to isolate the problem in no time. This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 My PC3 only has 1 midi out jack. The other 2 are In and Thru. The MIDI thru is switchable to be a parallel MIDI Out. Both MIDI Outs carry the same MIDI info then. The connected outboard MIDI devices pick their desired MIDI info by filtering MIDI channels inside the modules/keyboards then. It´s useful if you don´t use any MIDI matrix switcher/processor.- see it like the "poor man´s" MIDI patchbay for small rigs. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 MIDI connections PC3 Out #1 -> NS88 In PC3 Out #2 -> MidiSolutions MidiMerge In #1 Double check if the MIDI thru port of PC3 is switched to MIDI Out ! NS88 Out -> MidiSolutions MidiMerge In #2 MidiSolutions MidiMerge Out -> Korg TR-Rack In Korg TR-Rack Out -> Yamaha Motif ES-Rack In Yamaha Motif ES-Rack Out -> Roland D-550 In Roland D-550 Out -> Alesis QS-R In Alesis QS-R Out -> Korg Triton - Rack In Wrong description ? You really use the MIDI Outs of the modules ? Do they all MIDI ECHO ??? Or do you mean MIDI Thru of the modules ? I was able to re-create the problem by disconnecting the PC3 Out #2 -> MidiSolutions MideMerge In #1 cable. But I have no idea what is causing the problem. Loose MIDI jack on the PC3 or MidiMerge box? Unstable PC3 operating system? Given the fact, Midisolutions Merger is MIDI line powered, double check it the MIDI cable you´re using is always the same and all the 5 DIN plug pins wired. Also double check if PC3 is able to send MIDI power to the Midisolutions Merger from MIDI Thru (switched to MIDI Out functionality) !!! It can be it does,- but the MIDI cable might be faulty or is a one w/ only 3 wired pins. Would any of you risk down-loading the new OS for the PC3 at this point? Seems like it has a lot of bug fixes. But that won't help a loose MIDI jack, and I am not at all electronically inclined. I don´t have any issue w/ OS 2.10 up to now, but there´s no guarantee it fixes your issue. Because I´m using a MIDI matrix switcher/processor, PC3 just only connected w/ MIDI I/O,- I never ran in such problems. In fact,- for a setup like your´s,- you´d be fine using the merger and a good multi-port MIDI Thru box for the MIDI modules. There are these, offering 2 MIDI Ins and 2 pairs of 4 MIDI-Thru, the MIDI inputs cross-switchable to the 4 MIDI Thru A and B and/or the In>Thru connections can be muted completely or only 1 Input being used w/ all 8 MIDI Thru ports. Look for Monacor MME80 or Casio TB-1 @ebay. Cheapo solutions,- and because PC3 has it´s MIDI zoning features, a MIDI processor/matrix switcher might be overkill. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would also suggest switching the MIDI Through/Out switch back and forth a few times - it might not be making good contact. Switches that sit in one position for a long time are subject to develop slight corrosion because the contacts don't get wiped by movement. I have my PC3X set that way with two MIDI Outs, one to the new DAW, one to the old DAW. I presume you are presently on OS 2.03 - the change to OS 2.10 should not give you any trouble from my experience. There were ten different beta releases between 2.03 and 2.10 - I installed them all as they came out - no problems at least in my operation (the nature of bugs is such that not every user will encounter a specific bug). Three of those releases were betas, and then seven that were close-to-final. OTOH - you might as well just do the St. Patrick's Day gig first, THEN update the OS. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Is this what you are using?: http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm Yes! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 The problem could also be in the Korg TR as its the first module in the midi chain. Thanks, good catch. I did overlook this at rehearsal. I've previously had other modules not respond due to a MIDI cable becomine slightly unplugged, most likely during transport. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Moonglow, For a setup of this complexity, it seems prudent to have some kind of a midi monitor handy, just for diagnostics/troubleshooting. An iOS device + iRigMidi+ the Midi Monitor App is the ideal solution. A laptop/small netbook with a $11 Midi->USB cable would also work great. Think of it as a multimeter for Midi. You'd be able to isolate the problem in no time. I know, I know.... However, my next purchase (e.g., Kronos 88) will result in a rig involving minimal MIDI connections. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 NS88 Out -> MidiSolutions MidiMerge In #2 MidiSolutions MidiMerge Out -> Korg TR-Rack In Korg TR-Rack Out -> Yamaha Motif ES-Rack In Yamaha Motif ES-Rack Out -> Roland D-550 In Roland D-550 Out -> Alesis QS-R In Alesis QS-R Out -> Korg Triton - Rack In Wrong description ? You really use the MIDI Outs of the modules ? Do they all MIDI ECHO ??? Or do you mean MIDI Thru of the modules ? Do they all MIDI ECHO ??? Or do you mean MIDI Thru of the modules ? Yes, wrong description, fixed. I do use the MIDI Thru jacks. And I read my OP about a half-dozen times before I posted it too.... Thanks A.C. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was able to re-create the problem by disconnecting the PC3 Out #2 -> MidiSolutions MideMerge In #1 cable. But I have no idea what is causing the problem. Loose MIDI jack on the PC3 or MidiMerge box? Unstable PC3 operating system? Given the fact, Midisolutions Merger is MIDI line powered, double check it the MIDI cable you´re using is always the same and all the 5 DIN plug pins wired. Also double check if PC3 is able to send MIDI power to the Midisolutions Merger from MIDI Thru (switched to MIDI Out functionality) !!! It can be it does,- but the MIDI cable might be faulty or is a one w/ only 3 wired pins. The small red power light on the merger box illuminates when I connect the MIDI cables, so it appears to be getting power. To be safe, I'm going to get three brand-new MIDI cables this afternoon. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would also suggest switching the MIDI Through/Out switch back and forth a few times - it might not be making good contact. Switches that sit in one position for a long time are subject to develop slight corrosion because the contacts don't get wiped by movement. Thanks, MBK. Never knew that. Will do! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would wait on the OS. One problem at a time! OTOH - you might as well just do the St. Patrick's Day gig first, THEN update the OS. Im going to run with this....dont need any more headaches! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 You may want to check/clean the midi jacks in question to insure they are free of anything that could be creating a bad connection. Bits of fiber, lint or what ever could cause a problem. Thanks, will do. Would it be safe to spray a little of this stuff in the MIDI jacks? Radio Shack Precision Electronics Cleaner "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 It seems like a cable problem to me. I've had very sporadic instances with the Stage controlling my rack and my FantomXr hanging on notes. Once in a while it might be another module. And while I can't trace it or make it happen at will, it seems a midi cable comes loose, which is prone to happen in a rack that gets bumped around. And while the Midi Solutions box is showing it's getting power, that doesn't necessarily mean all pins are making solid connections. The biggest hurdle is not to panic in these situations. (You saw me struggle with bad midi at that outdoor gig that was raining on my gear...talk about flustered!) Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I wouldn't spray anything into your jacks, especially in the rack where everything stays wired. Just wipe down the exposed and plug/unplug points which are the areas of concern, and go t hrough your rack before practice/gig, and without pressing too hard or jamming anything, just secure all midi in/thru connections to make sure everythings okay. I HAVE had a midi jack fail on me a few times over the years. My Roland A90 had all of its midi ports on one strip, and its an angled back, so if cable strain relief isnt sufficient, it can diminish the integrity of those jacks, especially if the jacks are mounted on a board like the A90 was. But cold solder joints once they go bad pretty much go bad, they dont get better. So while I would check all of those things were talking about, Im betting its a cable problem, or just cable came loose, and its probably between the PC3 and the Korg. Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Another suggestion is I would use a MIDI Thru box rather than chaining all those modules together for a few reasons: 1) the MIDI specification itself recommends only chaining a few modules - I don't remember the exact number, but after more than a couple in/thru's, you're asking for trouble. 2) even if it works, there is a delay with each in/thru as it passes thru the buffers. Each subsequent module will add more and more delay. 3) if anything is bad along the way, you lose all of the modules after that. A thru box is a much more reliable solution. As for the merge box, they are prone to input buffer overfill since they have to handle potentially double the traffic of the midi spec. They can only do that by putting info in a buffer and passing one at a time. Make sure Active Sensing is turned off and turn off transmission of any unused CC's. Also, disable transmission of SysEx data. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Åslund Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would suggest getting a midi thru box, a powered one. I think with that many modules in series the last one in the chain might get a really weak or corrupted midi signal. I know it's a bit late to get one before tomorrow, but for the future I suggest getting one. I have a very nice problem solver for setups like this: http://www.jlcooper.com/_manuals/legacy/nexus/NexusPlus.pdf Merges two ins and for each of the eight outputs you can select if it will listen to input A, input B or both (merge). If I'd find another box like this I'd buy it too! I'd like to have one installed in my live rig and one at home. There's also the Roland A-880 or Edirol UM-880 midi interface, that I think will accomplish the same thing: http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=512 Too much stuff, too little time, too few gigs, should spend more time practicing...! 🙄 main instruments: Nord Stage 3 compact, Yamaha CP88, Kurzweil PC4, Viscount KeyB Legend Live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I use this to cut down the bullshit Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 MIDI connections PC3 Out #1 -> NS88 In PC3 Out #2 -> MIDI Solutions Merger box In #1 NS88 Out -> MIDI Solutions Merger box In #2 MIDI Solutions Merger box Out -> Korg TR-Rack In Korg TR-Rack Thru -> Yamaha Motif ES-Rack In Yamaha Motif ES-Rack Thru -> Roland D-550 In Roland D-550 Thru -> Alesis QS-R In Alesis QS-R Thru -> Korg Triton - Rack In I use the PC3 in Setup mode for the majority of my MIDI controller functions and live performance needs. With your combo of gear,- I´d re-configurate the whole rig,- MIDI wise ... NS88 MIDI Out > Kurz PC3 MIDI In Kurz PC3 MIDI-Out > MIDI Thru Box (4 MIDI Thru ports) MIDI In !!! special and only if you need it !!! Kurz MIDI Thru/Out 2 (set to Out !) > NS88 MIDI In Send MIDI Prg Changes from PC3 to NS88 from a separate Zone/MIDI Ch. set to dest. MIDI only and maybe on MIDI Ch. #16 and no local Kurz PC3 sound assigned. MIDI THru Box MIDI Thru port #1 > Alesis QS-R MIDI In MIDI Thru port #2 > Korg TR-Rack MIDI In MIDI Thru port #3 > Roland D-550 MIDI In MIDI Thru port #4 > Yamaha Motif ES-Rack MIDI In Advantages: Only 1 (or 2) short MIDI cable(s) to set up between NS88 and Kurz. Only 1 longer MIDI cable to set up between KURZ and the rack. Midisolutions MIDI Merger obsolete ! MIDI Thru box in the rack = short cables always attached to the units ! Use PC3 in Setup Mode for MIDI programming, benefit from PC3 rechannelize, split/layer features, do all necessary MIDI PRG-Changes for all units in the rig by simply programming 1 setup per tune on PC3 and during performance, change these setups by using the KURZ Q(uick)-Access Mode ! Put your setups in Q-Access banks for that purpose. (Have in mind QAccess is only shortcuts,- your playing in Setup-Mode). With PC3 OS 2.10,- you´re now able to to use the 16 Category Bank buttons to assign 16 Q-Access banks to these. These banks will be your favourite banks then and w/ access by one push of a button (Category Button 1-16),- each bank containing 10 setups. That way, you´re able to play all your keyboard´s and module´s MIDI zones from both of your keyboards and w/ no limitations AND the Kurz PC3 is your "central" MIDI processor. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Just purchase your KRONOS already Chris!!! Whatdya waiting for!!!? Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 With your combo of gear,- I´d re-configurate the whole rig,- MIDI wise ... NS88 MIDI Out > Kurz PC3 MIDI In Kurz PC3 MIDI-Out > MIDI Thru Box (4 MIDI Thru ports) MIDI In !!! special and only if you need it !!! Kurz MIDI Thru/Out 2 (set to Out !) > NS88 MIDI In Send MIDI Prg Changes from PC3 to NS88 from a separate Zone/MIDI Ch. set to dest. MIDI only and maybe on MIDI Ch. #16 and no local Kurz PC3 sound assigned. MIDI THru Box MIDI Thru port #1 > Alesis QS-R MIDI In MIDI Thru port #2 > Korg TR-Rack MIDI In MIDI Thru port #3 > Roland D-550 MIDI In MIDI Thru port #4 > Yamaha Motif ES-Rack MIDI In Advantages: Only 1 (or 2) short MIDI cable(s) to set up between NS88 and Kurz. Only 1 longer MIDI cable to set up between KURZ and the rack. Midisolutions MIDI Merger obsolete ! MIDI Thru box in the rack = short cables always attached to the units ! ... A.C. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Just purchase your KRONOS already Chris!!! Whatdya waiting for!!!? Or This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Wow, you guys are amazing....and if we were in a bar I would place a nice adjective in front of "amazing." Thanks for all of the great input! A.C., you have my head spinning....but I like your thinking, that is, what I can grasp of it as of the moment. I will definitely explore that after this weekend's gig. Thanks a bunch for that suggestion. I've never experienced trouble daisy-chaining multiple keyboards/modules together, of course until now. My previous rig involving my K2600 even had one more module than my current set-up. Never noticed any latency, either. But I get what Dan (80s-LZ) is saying, makes sense. Question: When a MIDI jack fails, is it typically an "all or nothing" thing, or an intermittent work/not work type of situation? No matter what happens, my "B" rig will be safely in tow for the gig! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 There's not much to go wrong with the jack itself: either a pin breaks, or a wire comes off; both result in fail with no "miracle" resurrection until repair. In the case of the A90 and the midi ports on the pc board, it could be intermittent because a cold solder joint can still make connection if pressure (strain of cable) pulls it in the right direction. So while it may "work", it's not fixed. I'm thinking you have a cable situation, either cable is bad, or more likely, some jack/cable connection had bad integrity. Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Just purchase your KRONOS already Chris!!! Whatdya waiting for!!!? The present situation just may push me over the edge. I LOVE my rig, but this is making me nuts.....not to mention that it will be a source of ongoing distration at the gig. I'm waiting for the keybed issues to be sorted out with the Kronos 88, although I recall reading a fairly recent post by Busch indicating that the new ones have slowly started to ship. How can one ensure that they get one with the correct keybed? "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Play it! Worst case scenario, get it fixed when they show up. Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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