Osby Article on Jazz

[cnegrad]

Greg Osby article on Jazz

[Dana.]

Yeesh. I feel for Osby. He's a great but frequently overlooked player, and to read this is a bummer. I don't think he's thought this through. There's no reason why he can't continue to play complex music for a small audience and play music that's less complex in an attempt to reach a bigger one. Blank stares extend beyond jazz shows, so that's not a fault of his music. This is an opportunity for him to be creative. It's one thing to trim the fat from one's music if it's in pursuit of honing the artistic statement (or whatever), but he shouldn't dumb it down just because his sister doesn't "get it."

[David Loving]

WWHD (What would Herbie do?)

[GovernorSilver]

Yeesh. I feel for Osby. He's a great but frequently overlooked player, and to read this is a bummer. I don't think he's thought this through. There's no reason why he can't continue to play complex music for a small audience and play music that's less complex in an attempt to reach a bigger one. Blank stares extend beyond jazz shows, so that's not a fault of his music. This is an opportunity for him to be creative. It's one thing to trim the fat from one's music if it's in pursuit of honing the artistic statement (or whatever), but he shouldn't dumb it down just because his sister doesn't "get it."

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Osby needs to work a little more to connect with the audience that actually wants to hear his music. I get the impression from reading his article that if he wanted to book a show in DC, he'd try to play at Blues Alley or Bohemian Caverns, which tend to attract the stereotypical "blue hair" jazz fans. What he should do instead is get in touch with the likes of Transparent Productions, which books adventurous artists like him. Thanks to Transparent, we've been able to see Tim Berne's Snake Oil, Ethnic Heritage Ensemble, and Andrea Parkins this year in DC. We also have another guy in DC that has booked less-known but even edgier acts.

 

I guess my point is Osby needs to look for people like that and connect with them. I'm sure every major metropolitan area has show organizers/bookers who specifically look for adventurous artists and leave the mainstream acts to the mainstream clubs. He needs to talk to them and not the mainstream clubs.

[David Loving]

The hurdle is jazzer pride. I think what he is trying to say is that the audience "that actually wants to hear his music" does not spend any money on it and the bills are not getting paid. Academia? Navel gazing inward jazzers? The audience does not have to be 'blue hair' to tire of three hours of cacophony, and outside adventures with little valuable musical information. Not every aspiring artist is Ornette Coleman or Monk, even if they think they are. People do not support that. In the old days it was called 'going commercial' to pay the bills. Just sayin'

[Dana.]

The hurdle is jazzer pride. I think what he is trying to say is that the audience "that actually wants to hear his music" does not spend any money on it and the bills are not getting paid. Academia? Navel gazing inward jazzers? The audience does not have to be 'blue hair' to tire of three hours of cacophony, and outside adventures with little valuable musical information. Not every aspiring artist is Ornette Coleman or Monk, even if they think they are. People do not support that. In the old days it was called 'going commercial' to pay the bills. Just sayin'

Jazzer pride is definitely a factor. At this point in his career, I don't know who his audience is. He did a week at the Vanguard last year, so at least a few people are still interested. His website hasn't been updated since last October. I don't think he needs to "go commercial" to pay the bills; he might just need some re-positioning in the jazz world, and there are a number of ways that could be done.

[Joe Muscara]

If you're an oncologist, how do you discuss what you do with other oncologists, vs. other physicians, vs. lay people? You don't have the same conversations and use the same terminology with each. If you never want to speak to lay people about it, that's fine, but if you do, you need to do it differently. And, if you want the lay people to understand more, you can't beat them over the head with it. You need to try to bring them along and accept that not all of them will come with you. Even other physicians may not want to know more than what is at their level.

[Michelle ggurl]

I don't know ... It seems to me that every music finds its audience. In this case maybe that audience is a few other musicians and even fewer laypeople. He is right for examining his situation if it's causing him cognitive dissonance. Either he's got the conviction to relay the message of his concept regardless of how small the audience for that message, OR something is wrong with either the message or delivery style because he has an audience in mind, but they arent listening. Sometimes that can lead to selling out ... OR it takes an artist experimenting till he/she finds that sweet spot of gratifying expression and an audience to listen to it. Sometimes there is a disconnect tho ... Most jazz musicians won't be seiing out arenas playing music they want to play ... So if that's the expectation, I suppose a reality check is in order. just my random musings on the subject ...

[Jazzwee]

Why all or nothing? Pyrotechnics can still exist but just not the whole solo.

 

Maybe everyone's going too far away from thinking 'tension' and 'release'. Too much tension gets tiring.

 

And we have to think that our audience has even less tolerance for long periods of tension. Keith Jarrett seems to maintain a good balance. In fact, I would say that KJ's pyrotechnics are precisely measured and seems to always come in the same point of the solo. Perhaps this is too formulaic, but maybe he realizes that what ain't broke doesn't need fixin'.

 

In any case, this article is good for me to think about. I play jazz for a general audience and lately, I've come to a point of playing less and the reception seems to be better.

 

[Jazz+]

Osby is boring, imo.

[ProfD]

"Continuing our dialogue on the audience equation for creative music, which heretofore has focused on the puzzling conundrum of the African American audience..."

 

Very few can read the article through that prism. Osby's revelation isn't new within the African-American community.

 

IMO, African-American musicians are frustrated because it is hard to make a living while playing music their peers do not support.

 

As a result, African-American musos have to figure out a way to make their art appealing to their own people and the broader audience, promoters, booking agents, club and venue owners.

[GovernorSilver]

The audience does not have to be 'blue hair' to tire of three hours of cacophony, and outside adventures with little valuable musical information. Not every aspiring artist is Ornette Coleman or Monk, even if they think they are. People do not support that. In the old days it was called 'going commercial' to pay the bills. Just sayin'

 

By "people" I guess you are referring to the people in your town.

 

Have you even heard Greg Osby's music? If you have, and you find it cacophonous, then that is your opinion.

 

There are enough people here in DC to support a certain side of jazz that you personally might not like, but they do. That is why organizations like Transparent Products and Sonic Circuits DC book artists who play outside of the jazz mainstream and have been booking them for years - people actually come to the shows!

 

http://transparentproductionsdc.org/

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I haven't heard Greg Osby before. Now that I have, geez, if you simplified this further we'll be in Kenny G territory...I was expecting some hardcore jazz.

[GovernorSilver]

I don't know ... It seems to me that every music finds its audience. In this case maybe that audience is a few other musicians and even fewer laypeople. He is right for examining his situation if it's causing him cognitive dissonance. Either he's got the conviction to relay the message of his concept regardless of how small the audience for that message, OR something is wrong with either the message or delivery style because he has an audience in mind, but they arent listening.

 

OR what he thinks should be his audience and his real-life potential audience are not the same at all and its time for him to get to work to find his real audience. Again, bringing up the DC jazz scene example, he should stop trying to play the likes of Kennedy Center (where Herbie played), Blues Alley, and other mainstream jazz venues because the audience for his music doesn't go to those places. He'd be a better fit for Twins Jazz, The Dunes, or Bohemian Caverns (but only on Sunday nights, when Transparent typically books shows there). A more receptive audience tends to go to those places instead.

[Dana.]

Osby is boring, imo.

Why?

[Dana.]

I haven't heard Greg Osby before. Now that I have, geez, if you simplified this further we'll be in Kenny G territory...I was expecting some hardcore jazz.

Huh?

[Jazzwee]

...meaning he's pretty mainstream.

 

If he's having a problem getting an audience, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

[Dana.]

Mainstream in playing style or notoriety? He's worn a few different hats during his career; I don't think any of them have verged on Kenny G territory.

[GovernorSilver]

...meaning he's pretty mainstream.

 

If he's having a problem getting an audience, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

 

Osby is mainstream? How did you conclude that when you just said you never heard his music?

 

When I first heard him play, he was part of the M-BASE movement that Steve Coleman, Geri Allen, and others were associated with. My first exposure to M-BASE music was via Steve Coleman Five Elements' Black Science album and Strata Institute's (co-led by Coleman and Osby) Transmigration album. It would have been awesome if that music graduated to the jazz mainstream.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Base

 

 

[Jazzwee]

My point is that his playing is melodic. Not self-serving pyrotechnics as he seems to suggest in the article. So given what he was saying, I was expecting a lot of outside playing and dissonance which turns off the listener not to used to that.

 

If anything, my personal taste (as a jazzer) tends to be more complex. His style would be very good for a typical jazz audience.

 

So further simplification of what he does is like saying we need to simplify Duke Ellington for example.

 

I've seen audiences here in LA clamor for more complexity (like Coltrane). But his article suggests he's thinking about going simpler. Well, if you're already playing like Duke Ellington, where does simpler take you? You'll be left with a shell like Kenny G.

 

Maybe he's not sure who is audience is. Or we're back to the discussion of not calling jazz by the name 'jazz'.

[Jazzwee]

...meaning he's pretty mainstream.

 

If he's having a problem getting an audience, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

 

Osby is mainstream? How did you conclude that when you just said you never heard his music?

 

When I first heard him play, he was part of the M-BASE movement that Steve Coleman, Geri Allen, and others were associated with. My first exposure to M-BASE music was via Steve Coleman Five Elements' Black Science album and Strata Institute's (co-led by Coleman and Osby) Transmigration album. It would have been awesome if that music graduated to the jazz mainstream.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Base

 

 

Just listened to the first few youtubes I found.

 

Should I listen to something else in particular?

[Dana.]

This review from the Times offers some context.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/arts/music/05osby.html

[ProfD]

Again, Osby is trying to figure out how to appeal to his own people and by extension a broader audience.

[Jazzwee]

Again, Osby is trying to figure out how to appeal to his own people and by extension a broader audience.

 

So given that problem, what should he do? What appeals to the African American audience that is not present in jazz?

 

Kenny G obviously has a broader audience but lacks every element of jazz.

 

He implies the solution is some sort of simplification. But that's what Kenny G. does. What he doesn't talk about is that the African American influence is rhythmic and that kind of change is not some minor tweak.

 

When he had his sister give an opinion on his music, his sister implied his music is complex. But frankly, his music did not sound complex to me. So any further change here and he leaves jazz (which apparently is a word he has a problem with too) and then he does pop.

 

Instrumental pop?

 

I just wonder if this kind of discussion is about the 'music' or about making money.

[Jazzwee]

Is this his answer?

 

[video:youtube]

[ProfD]

Again, Osby is trying to figure out how to appeal to his own people and by extension a broader audience.

 

So given that problem, what should he do?

IMO, Osby has already started the process by asking for his sister's opinion and thinking about it.

 

Next, he needs to listen to "hip" black music past to present and incorporate those elements into his own music.

[GovernorSilver]

...meaning he's pretty mainstream.

 

If he's having a problem getting an audience, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

 

Osby is mainstream? How did you conclude that when you just said you never heard his music?

 

When I first heard him play, he was part of the M-BASE movement that Steve Coleman, Geri Allen, and others were associated with. My first exposure to M-BASE music was via Steve Coleman Five Elements' Black Science album and Strata Institute's (co-led by Coleman and Osby) Transmigration album. It would have been awesome if that music graduated to the jazz mainstream.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Base

 

 

Just listened to the first few youtubes I found.

 

Should I listen to something else in particular?

 

Ah, my apologies. Osby has indeed toned down his more experimental side based on a 2004 Youtube video I just listened to.

 

He was more like this in 1998:

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

Steve Coleman OTOH is still playing within the M-BASE concept, which is why it's come to be associated with him, more than his fellow collaborators in M-BASE projects (eg. Osby).

 

None of what I've read about M-BASE ever indicated an interest in appealing to more African-Americans outside of the M-BASE collective, or the wider jazz community. Perhaps this is one area where Osby's perspective diverged from Coleman's.

[David Loving]

he does not want to play rap and pop for a living, that's all. His very own demographic will not spend money on his product.

[Jazzwee]

I just worry about a musician looking around for what's 'hip' and then copying it, as in the insertion of Rappers in the above video and going hip/hop. Usually this doesn't result in success in the long run.

 

The harder goal is to make something completely new.

 

But I guess jazz, is in essence, a tradition of 'copying' so it's not such a jump. Though typically we copy from the same genre.

 

Like I said, I think this is about money rather than from looking inward into one's musical soul. Sad for me to see, really. It looks to me like selling out.

[Jazzwee]

Steve Coleman OTOH is still playing within the M-BASE concept, which is why it's come to be associated with him, more than his fellow collaborators in M-BASE projects (eg. Osby).

 

None of what I've read about M-BASE ever indicated an interest in appealing to more African-Americans outside of the M-BASE collective, or the wider jazz community. Perhaps this is one area where Osby's perspective diverged from Coleman's.

 

That's actually cool. And he left that style? Hmmm. Wrong direction IMHO. But that's me.