How to practice tuplet (11 against 6)

[Octopus]

Which is the best way to practice these tuplets in measure 2 (11:6) and 3 (22:6*2) ?

 

What is the english name for these tuplets? Elevenlets? Twentytwolets?

 

Should I practice each hand separately and then assemble or calculate mathematically and try to estimate the offsets?

 

...or super practice left hand and just let the right hand go and create my own interpretation?

 

The song is: Nocturne op 9, no 1. Chopin.

 

Scores

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/41266903/op9.pdf

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

[CEB]

Calculation never worked for me. The seperate parts of the piece are not that hard. That is typically for this period of his work.

 

How good are you at the most basic polyrythms like 2 against 3? If you haven't mastered that I would start there. Practice 2 against 3 with a metrodone then 3 against 4 and get those down cold. If you have no problem with basic polyrythms then go to the Chopin piece and make a copy of it. The figure what right and left hand part coinside and mark those section with big parenthesis or lines or whatever way you want. Then practice them separately with a metrodone. When you put them together use the left hand to hold the timing together. Trigger off the left.

 

Also keep in mind this is a romantic song and right hand parts are heavily vocalized. They weren't meant to be played mechanically exact.

 

Good luck. Chopin gave me fits. I always did prefer Liszt. The subtle stuff is hard.

 

[Tusker]

The subtle stuff is hard.

 

I agree. In this piece, I've found that good, intentional, phrasing is more important than perfect timing.

[Dave Ferris]

How good are you at the most basic polyrythms like 2 against 3? If you haven't mastered that I would start there. Practice 2 against 3 with a metrodone then 3 against 4 and get those down cold. If you have no problem with basic polyrythms then go to the Chopin piece and make a copy of it. The figure what right and left hand part coinside and mark those section with big parenthesis or lines or what ever way you want. The practice them separately with a metrodone. When you put them together use the left hand to hold the timing together. Trigger off the left.

 

Also keep in mind this is a romantic song and right hand parts are heavily vocalized. They weren't meant to be played mechanically exact.

 

Good luck. Chopin gave me fits. I always did prefer Liszt. The subtle stuff is hard.

 

+1

 

Yes you must have a basic grasp of how 3 against 2, 4 against 3, 5 against 3, etc., works, sounds or flows.

 

The first 11 against 6 occurs in bar 3 on the Bbm chord. I would break the 11 into 2 phrases-one a 5 note phrase and the second the triplet based 6 note phrase. Like CEB said, the LH is the stabilizer and key off that. When I learned this piece many years ago I would try and play it metronmically as close as possible in strict time. Once I felt I had the polyrhythms smooth and properly aligned with the LH , then I would add the more rubato feeling consistent with Romantic music.

 

Personally my problematic area was always bar 73... Here I did take the alternate version in the Henle edition. Triplets on the the first 8th note 6 grouping and then I sub-divided the remainder of the 6 grouping phrase into 5 against 2. A lot of push and pull is required. I haven't practiced this in a long time so it would take some work to get it back to sounding worth anything.

 

I was always a Chopin guy, Liszt while he wrote some great later pieces, was more about the virtuosity on the instrument while Chopin was more about the sound of the instrument and the music--I found a close correlation between Chopin and Jazz too. Much more so then Liszt.

 

I've been meaning to get back into learning some of the Mazurkas.

 

Depending on the level you're at this piece might best be tackled with a teacher fwiw....

[iLaw]

Well, you certainly want to practice hands separately; eventually muscle memory alone is going to help smooth the blend. Getting started, however, I recommend that you map out exactly where you want the left hand eighth notes to hit with the right hand "melisma." This is easier than you first think since in both measures its an almost exact 1:2 ratio. In the end you won't want the right to sound like strict sixteenth notes, but get started that way and continue until you can flow through the measures with ease, with whatever fudge you want to do somewhere in the measure (probably the end) to get the next measure started on track. Listen to the notes in the right hand and ask yourself which of the notes you think fit best with the Bbm to F7 going on in the left hand, then match them up.

 

Then step out a notch and map where you want larger right hand melodic figures to coincide with the three-note left hand groupings that naturally make up the accompaniment. Get those groupings to flow with ease.

 

Once you've gotten that far, it should become fairly automatic to just let the right hand flow over the left measure to measure.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Larry.

 

[Bobadohshe]

I'll echo what others have said: these phrases should be intentionally loose.

 

That said, do what others have stated: break it into pieces against the left hand. How many RH notes to each LH note? And let the phrase push and pull. If you are playing like a computer, you're doing it wrong.

[Bobadohshe]

I was always a Chopin guy, Liszt while he wrote some great later pieces, was more about the virtuosity on the instrument while Chopin was more about the sound of the instrument and the music--I found a close correlation between Chopin and Jazz too. Much more so then Liszt.

 

Me too! the textures and voice leading in some of these pieces is almost indistguishable from Keith Jarrett's. Obviously Keith uses jazz colors in a way that didn't exists in the early 19th century, but there are actually times where Chopin does it regardless. The first page of the less famous of the two B major nocturnes. (Op 62 no 1). There are some unabashed sus chords in that thing.

[Bobadohshe]

Look at this beauty. Full on BMAJ7/C#. Gorgeous.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7056/6957460711_448d1538ef.jpg

[dazzjazz]

Can you suggest any rhythm/word games for polyrhythms?

I know so teachers use "coca-cola" for a set of 4 16ths for example.

 

Darren

[Bobadohshe]

2 Against 3: Not very hard, not very hard, not very hard.

 

3 Against 4: Some like it nice and hot, some like it nice and hot.

 

 

[Musicale]

I always wondered if there was a way to talk about 3 against 2 or 3 over 4. So there seems to be a method to the madness. Appreciate the roadmap on how to approach this...

 

Regards,

Musicale

[kanker.]

Look at this beauty. Full on BMAJ7/C#. Gorgeous.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7056/6957460711_448d1538ef.jpg

It's hard to recognize it as such without seeing the key signature

[kanker.]

In other words, looks like a B-7/C to me....

[Bridog6996]

Should I practice each hand separately and then assemble or calculate mathematically and try to estimate the offsets?

 

...or super practice left hand and just let the right hand go and create my own interpretation?

 

Probably the opposite, really. Phrasing of the melody (right hand) is priority #1, so that's what I would practice most. Everything else will fall in around that. Like CEB said, don't worry about being metronomically correct, because Chopin certainly wasn't when he wrote it. It's a "feel" thing, and that type of thing is very tough to convey in words. Just practice it very slowly and see how the LH/RH notes line up relative to each other and I think you'll have a good start.

[Bobadohshe]

It's hard to recognize it as such without seeing the key signature

 

Sorry, I mentioned right above that I was talking about the B Major nocturne, but didn't connect that the except below was necessarily from the same piece. It is.

[Bobadohshe]

In other words, looks like a B-7/C to me....

 

That's a gross Kanker chord.

[kanker.]

In other words, looks like a B-7/C to me....

 

That's a gross Kanker chord.

[Dave Ferris]

I actually use that voicing all the time. A D triad over a LH root Maj 7 shell. Lydian heaven... Don't think it was part of the "vocabulary" in 1835 though...

[Dave Ferris]

I actually use that voicing all the time. A D triad over a LH root Maj 7 shell.

 

Put an F in the bass of that structure (diminished) and check out that sound.

 

E & Ab in the bass sound cool too... That's definitely not from 1835.....

[Bobadohshe]

I actually use that voicing all the time. A D triad over a LH root Maj 7 shell. Lydian heaven... Don't think it was part of the "vocabulary" in 1835 though...

 

Me too. As for your Ab in the bass recommendation,

[Octopus]

Thank you all for the wonderful help!!

 

No I am very close to play this tuplet part with satisfaction.

 

The metronom really helped me this time. First i practised with the left hand, set the metronome to 6/4 (bing, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang). Then I learned the RH:s 11 and 22 running notes more like a song. I have the melody in my head and learned it blindfolded. Then my goal was to hit every (bing) on the metronome with a note (11+11+11). It worked well.

 

Now Im looking forward to learn the rest :-)

 

THANKS!!!!

[Octopus]

I recommend that you map out exactly where you want the left hand eighth notes to hit with the right hand "melisma."

 

I choosed every beggining of the arpeggio in the left hand to overlap a note in the right, (11+11+11). Then the other 10 notes didnt hit a quarter note, I played it more like a flowing waterfall feeling in the spaces.

 

What does Melisma mean? Im from sweden ;-)

 

 

[iLaw]

What does Melisma mean? Im from sweden ;-)

Technically, melisma is when singers run an extended string of notes on a single syllable (think of Handel running two measures of sixteenth notes on a single "ah"). I put the term in quotatation marks in my post because what Chopin is doing with the melody is not technically "melisma."

 

The musical term that I actually think is closer to what Chopin does in your Nocturne is the operatic term "fioritura," which is when a singer adds an extended/expanded string of filigree to the vocal melody (I think "fioritura" is a flower-related term in Italian). Either way, my thought is that when Chopin does this (and he does it all the time) he is not merely decorating a melody (such as with a trill or other ornamentation), but expanding the melody itself.

 

I think of Chopin melodies in singers' terms.

 

Larry.

 

Edited to add:

 

OK, I looked it up in Swedish:

 

Melism är en term inom vokalmusik som innebär en följd av toner som sjungs på samma stavelse. Den musikaliska begrepp som jag tycker är närmare vad Chopin gör i ditt Nocturne är opera termen "fioritura"

 

(Gotta love the Google Translate!)

 

 

Larry.

[Tusker]

I choosed every beggining of the arpeggio in the left hand to overlap a note in the right, (11+11+11). Then the other 10 notes didnt hit a quarter note, I played it more like a flowing waterfall feeling in the spaces.

 

I think everyone in this thread would agree, that is the right process. Work out the rhythm, then let the phrasing guide you.

 

I'm loving the jazz subtext in this thread. Chopin loved and "got" the piano, that much is certain.

[CEB]

When I studied Econometrics in grad school I passed with very high marks it but didn't understand it. A professor told me it was normal not to understand the subject and about a year later I realized he was right. Another year of statiscal analysis experience using the subject matter hands on per se was the best teacher. In the classroom I was overwhelmed by new information I hadn't really absorbed it all.

 

I found many things in music to be the same way. Back when I was still studying the piano I really didn't get it. I was trying to learn the written music and to do it like the paper. I locked myself into what I thought the norm had to be. This made things hard but in the end the discipline was good.

 

When I just play, my natural style is full of polyrythms and I am always breaking time. I just do it. If I run my natural performances through Coda and printed it out on paper I probably couldn't learn my own stuff.

 

When I was between the ages of 8 and 22 and still studied the piano I couldn't keep it in my mind that Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, etc..... were players and the written score was in some cases best available approximation. When I was young just everthing in general was more black and white. I've come back to classical music about a year ago. My sight reading skills suck now but mentally I think I have a better feel for the music. Either that or since I am not going to be graded or critiqued on it I mentally don't give a ****.

[cellogeek]

Although I don't play keyboard I had some similar problems with a cello piece I was learning to play. This app (Rhythm Calculator) helped me out so much! Might be worth a try for you? You can program in pretty much any tuplet rhythm and it will play it back to you on a loop. Very useful!

 

www.jetpoweredapps.com/rhythmcalculator

[MonksDream]

In college I learned a handy technique for accurately subdividing compound tuplets that may be helpful.

 

Let's take 5 against 3 as an example.

 

Write out 5 groups of 3 note heads like this:

 

xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx||

Now place an accent above the first note head in every group of 3:

 

v   v   v   v   v  
vxx xxx xxx xxx xxx||

That gives you 5 equal divisions.

 

Next place an accent below the first note head in every group of 5:

 

v   v   v   v   v  
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx||
^     ^      ^

That gives you 3 equal divisions.

 

Now tap out the note heads while placing the upper accents with one hand and the lower accents with the other. Once you can do that - stop tapping the unaccented note heads. Voila! You're now playing 5 over 3 accurately! This works with any arbitrary number of beats against any other; just substitute the necessary numbers for the numbers above. (And, yes, if you write out 3 groups of 5 and accent the first of every group of 3 note heads instead you arrive at the same result!)

 

For the OP's question about 11 against 6:

- Write out 11 groups of 6 note heads

- Place upper accents on the first of every group of 6

- Place lower accents on the first of every group of 11

Or vice versa

[Joe Muscara]

Although I don't play keyboard I had some similar problems with a cello piece I was learning to play. This app (Rhythm Calculator) helped me out so much! Might be worth a try for you? You can program in pretty much any tuplet rhythm and it will play it back to you on a loop. Very useful!

 

www.jetpoweredapps.com/rhythmcalculator

thanks for this. I just got this (it's only 99cents) and I think it will help a lot.