USB keyboard controllers for Live performance usage.

[CEB]

I want a Controller for playing VST synths and possibly VB3.

 

Things that are important is the ability to provide good control over VSTs in real time environment. Soft instruments I plan on running live as of now include, Memorymoon, Messiah, MinimogueVA, and Sonigen Modular (thanks AC the demos I found sounded cool) and VB3. I will be running a Windows 7 laptop. I will run either Cantibile or Forte hosting software.

 

I have 4 models I am looking at I wonder if there is any love of hate for the following controllers. I will probably have to buy online.

 

1) Novation SL MK2 -61 61 keys, in terms of controls it appears to be robust. BUT it only has 8 sliders not 9. I know nothing about the keyboard action. Comes with Novations Automap functionality. My softsynth vendor provides Automap templates for the 2 primary soft synths I will most likely use. Cost is about $600.

 

2) Novation Impulse 61- Looks nice in the picture. Not as many assignable controls. Has 9 sliders!!!, Very lightweight which kind of raises and concerns over action and durability. Comes with Novations Automap functionality. My softsynth vendor provides Automap templates for the 2 primary soft synths I will most likely use. Cost is about $400.

 

3) Rolands A-800 61 keys. 8 knobs. 9 sliders!!! Assignable controls seem somewhat equivalent to the Impulse. My VST vendor has template for the A-800. He recommended the A-800 to me. Rolands Marketing says it uses the same action as the amazing Juno-Di. I thought that the Juno-Di sucked. But I dont know if the Novations are any better. The Roland is really lightweight also. Cost is about $400.

 

4) CME UF70 9 sliders!!!, 8 knobs, 76keys!!!. Seems to be an older keyboard. I dont know if this is an issue when it comes to running with new computers or software. Weighs about 26 pounds so I hope that means a nicer action and more durable hardware. It seems too be a wireless controller I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I just want something the works all the time not something like my Samson guitar wireless I bought in the late 80s that usually worked but sometimes would pick up police band radio and broadcast across my Fender Super Reverb. Cost is about $430 where I can still find them.

 

Any love or hate for these boards? Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

[Al Coda]

I want a Controller for playing VST synths and possibly VB3.

 

1)Novation SL MK2 -61 61 keys

 

2)Novation Impulse 61- Looks nice in the picture.

 

Cannot comment on these because I never touched ´em.

 

3)Rolands A-800 61 keys. 8 knobs. 9 sliders!!! Assignable controls seem somewhat equivalent to the Impulse. My VST vendor has template for the A-800. He recommended the A-800 to me. Rolands Marketing says it uses the same action as the amazing Juno-Di. I thought that the Juno-Di sucked. But I dont know if the Novations are any better. The Roland is really lightweight also. Cost is about $400.

 

This might be worth a try if you want to buy NEW.

The ancestors are the Edirol PCR300 /500 /800,- I own the PCR300 just only for the controller purposes and GunnarE does too !

 

The PCR-X00 range offers much more controllers than the Roland A-X00 range !

Memorymoon has PCR controller maps for download for the PCRs,- just load and go.

Can be that works for the A-models too.

 

Both, the PSR and A range offer V-Link automapping which works excellent w/ Presonus Studio One and Phead Reason by pushing one button.

 

For a 61-keys controller, I´d opt for the PCR800.

The action feels good, only disadvantage is the deep trigger point, so that should be compared to the A-800.

If it is the same,- buy the PCR-800 used in good condition.

 

Both, PCR and A, merge physical MIDI In to physical MIDI Out AND USB MIDI simultaneously.

That´s a nice feature and has to be double checked for all the others mentioned in the list.

 

The PCR has onboard memory,- check that for the others too.

Some have only 10 preset memory locations, some have none and all has to be loaded by using the mouse then.

 

4) CME UF70 9 sliders!!!, 8 knobs, 76keys!!!.

 

Steve Nathan reported the CME UF to be reliable and perfect working.

He owns two, one for the home and one for gigging IIRC.

 

In fact, I´m interested in the UF80 classic or v2 now.

 

UF v2 comes w/ expansion slot and wireless MIDI but I´m not sure if I need that.

Classic series: Expansion slot but no wireless MIDI.

 

Both,- not many freely programmable buttons,- 6 only.

 

A.C.

[johnchop]

1) Novation SL MK2 -61 61 keys,

 

Had it briefly. Sold it. All the controls and the total package felt surprisingly cheap. Had issues with joystick (sent out random messages). I found Automap frustrating as hell. Sorry, I know a lot of folks get on great with these controllers, but it didn't click with me.

 

3) Rolands A-800 61 keys.

 

Have it, and while I'm not a Roland guy, I like it very much. Roland synth action, which is serviceable for synthy stuff and some EP work but probably not ideal for organ. Workable, yes, but the Novation is probably a bit better in that department. The controls all feel really solid (by comparison to the Novation IMO) and it is crazy lightweight.

 

I've wanted to try the Impulse to see if it improves on the SL in terms of robustness, and I've been curious about the CME stuff but reports of stability issue and poor support do concern me.

 

Hope this helps.

-John

[Jim Alfredson]

I like my Novation SL Mk2. Had no issues with it. Nine sliders would be better, though. Some folks don't like the action. I don't mind it.

 

Automap is handy for plugs with lots of controls, like Alchemy. For VB3, I just mapped my own.

 

Haven't tried any of the others.

[mate stubb]

Novation SL Mk2 had the best action of all the plastic controllers GC had in stock. As in, the others totally sucked, but the SL felt similar to the old Pratt Reed actions.

[Al Coda]

...and I've been curious about the CME stuff but reports of stability issue and poor support do concern me.

-John

 

We read a lot in forums about stability issues of anything available.

When I read about "instability" of CME, it´s mostly related to drivers.

That might be correct as far as you need drivers.

If I understood correctly, the drivers are necessary for the expansions the expansion slots are for and that means, the keyboard becomes a full blown audio interface.

 

MIDI related, the CMEs are fully class compliant w/ USB2 and across Macs and PCs,- so there´s no need of drivers for MIDI.

Can be, the USB MIDI isn´t the best, but we find that very often w/ any kind of USB MIDI gear.

The keyboards have physical MIDI too,- so what ?

 

In the end, it´s all about the action, the count and quality of physical controllers offered, are there enough ft.sw. and CCpedal jacks for you and does the remote software work to assign MIDI controllers easier or at all, depending on how the concept of the product is.

 

OTOH, the CME UF 80 (classic) is a very cheap 88 weighted key controller offering after touch, the action reported as very good, might be ideal for a home studio environment and possibly is rugged enough for live usage too.

 

Support is overrated anyway.

If I buy something and it doesn´t work as expected, I return it to the dealer and don´t waste time in support forums or sending mails to China.

In my country, it´s all up to the dealer and I like it that way.

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

There's also the Arturia Analog Experience "The Laboratory" 61.

 

You might find some helpful info in the recent similar thread at

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2387605/

 

The SL, Roland, CME, and Arturia all use something along the lines of a typical synth/organ action, whereas I believe the Impulse semi-weighted is more like the semi-weighted Kurzweils, which, IMO, are less pleasing for organ while still not piano-like enough to be satisfying for piano. Some people do find them to be a good compromise, though. If you didn't need to use it for piano at all, my inclination would be to avoid the Impulse, but if it will also be your piano board, I don't know, then I think it's a matter of finding the least bad choice!

[Gary75]

I have a UF50 with Plugiator ASX card installed. It's well built but occasionally the display flicks to random values without touching it. Not sure if this is an OS bug or not. But it is a great bit of kit, worth buying to turn it into a fully fledged Minimax synth and others in my opinion.

[JeffLearman]

I suggest you don't limit yourself to MIDI/USB controllers. You can get perfectly good class-compliant MIDI-USB adpator cables on ebay for $6 each, hardly more than a USB cable, so you can have a backup in case you forget one somewhere.

 

Second, if you ever plan to use a second keyboard that's not just a controller, you have more options with raw MIDI than with MIDI/USB. With raw MIDI, you can play one keyboard from the other without needing the computer in between. With MIDI/USB you can't. Sounds like you'll typically have your computer so this isn't an issue, but one never knows what the future may hold.

 

Finally, I'd recommend getting a good ROMpler or VA that's also a good controller and using that. Then you have at least a few fallback sounds if your computer bluescreens and needs to reboot.

 

I used a laptop live for 4 or 5 years. It only failed on me two or three times, playing about weekly on average. I was always glad I had a piano to play when the computer wasn't working.

 

If this is just one keyboard of a two-or-more keyboard rig, then that's less of an issue, but the second item might be more of one.

[AnotherScott]

I think all the boards mentioned in this thread do have standard MIDI connections (in addition to USB), though yeah, there are some that don't, and I agree that those are best avoided!

 

I also agree that it's fine to use a soundless controller as on part of a multi-board rig, but if it's your only board, it's better if it has sounds as backup, but in this $400 to $600 price range, you can't get everything. I mean, the OP wants 8 or preferably 9 sliders... right there, you're out of luck on a board with sounds.

 

At the crazy low price Novamusik has them for, if 61 keys will do, I'd suggest the Kurzweil PC361, which I'd say is a better performance controller than anything else mentioned and has great sounds. However, it's still almost $1,000, and a bit over 30 lbs.

 

If that budget is okay, but the weight isn't, you could have emergency backup for a soundless controller with a little 6 lb Microstation. Or, I suppose, some small rack module (a JV-1010 or whatever), though having the redundancy for the keyboard as well provides a little extra insurance.

 

EDIT: The forthcoming $500 Casio XW-P1 would be a 9-slider board with built-in sounds, and seems to have enough flexibility to be a decent MIDI controller, though it does have some limitations compared to the other boards mentioned (like no aftertouch, and you'd have to plug in some other stuff to get your expression pedal).

[Dana.]

Novation SL Mk2 had the best action of all the plastic controllers GC had in stock. As in, the others totally sucked, but the SL felt similar to the old Pratt Reed actions.

Apparently your definition of "similar" is "not at all alike"?

[Ashville.Guru]

I suggest you don't limit yourself to MIDI/USB controllers. You can get perfectly good class-compliant MIDI-USB adpator cables on ebay for $6 each, hardly more than a USB cable, so you can have a backup in case you forget one somewhere.

This.

[Al Coda]

At the crazy low price Novamusik has them for, if 61 keys will do, I'd suggest the Kurzweil PC361, which I'd say is a better performance controller than anything else mentioned and has great sounds. However, it's still almost $1,000, and a bit over 30 lbs.

 

 

That´s worth a discussion because I use a KURZ PC361 together w/ other hardware and software.

 

It´s true, the PC3 models actually are the best MIDI controller units for gigging, but OTOH, these aren´t optimized to use ´em w/ software rigs.

You can, if you invest the time to program your custom control setups for DAW/softsynth usage, but is a lot of work w/ the background, PC3 programs and setups want some knobs and sliders for the internal sound engine as well and for the usage of some software, especially this using articulations and key switching, you´d need another 88 keys keybed w/ some more physical controllers attached.

 

With the PC361 and the advantage of having a backup sound engine, you get a nice synth action, wheels, some buttons and some sliders, but no automapping to standard software apps/plugins and it has less buttons and no rotary encoders/pots.

 

A CME UF80 midied to a PC361´s MIDI-In could do the trick in PC361 setup mode and would be a very cheap solution,- if the action of the UF80 is usable.

But all the a step-by-step MIDI programming of the PC361 still remains.

 

Because of the factory patch programming, the PC361 internal sound engine requires an ext. 88 weighted keys board, idealy one matching the PC361 user selectable velocity maps like Fatar TP100, TP40L and TP40H.

I investigated and a Doepfer PK88 or Numa Nano would be ideal actions to make 2 keyboard controller combo w/ the PC361.

To make it perfect, an additional controller desktop unit would be the ice on the cake,- p.ex. the Novation Remote Zero SLmkII.

 

Up to now, I couldn´t find out which keybeds are in a CME UF80 (classic).

Is anyone out there knowing this ?

 

A.C.

 

[Tusker]

CEB,

 

I was trying to solve a similar problem. How do I gig with a laptop and not have to schlep a rompler? I didn't like the keybeds of the controllers I auditioned (Nocturn Keyboard, Impulse, Axiom, Axiom Pro, Arturia Analog).

 

I was drawn toward the Roland A800 because the touch reminded me of the XP30, and because of the midi merge feature (which is far too rare). However, in the end I reasoned that I would need weighted keys and my S90ES would give me rompler backup. Instead of a usb keyboard I bought a Novation desktop Nocturn, to give me some knobs and their automap feature to program softsynths. It now sits on my S90ES.

 

With hindsight, I might have accomplished a similar outcome with a couple of usb midi convertor cables and the 18 knobs on my nord modular. I wouldn't have the pretty leds, but the rig would work.

 

Hoping this helps you,

 

Jerry

[CEB]

Thanks for all the input so far. I will continue to carry a Kawai 88-key graded hammer action board for piano. The Kawai controls some hardware rack modules. The controller I looking to add will be used for synth and organ stuff only. I have to be able to control my VSTi without a mouse. The other option I continue to consider is Carry the XK3c and figure out where I can physically set a Novation SL MK 2 ZEro and play the laptop instruments from the XK3c. Regardless of which route I go I will want a controller. It would be great for rehearsals.

 

Thanks again for the replies so far.

 

If I had Moe's electronics talent I would build something. Like this controller somebody build specifically for controlling Messiah plus I would add VB3 controlls also .... and what the heck I would give it 76 keys. This guys builds some cool controllers. No one ever makes exactly what you want.

[video:youtube]

 

 

[AnotherScott]

It´s true, the PC3 models actually are the best MIDI controller units for gigging, but OTOH, these aren´t optimized to use ´em w/ software rigs.

...

PC3 programs and setups want some knobs and sliders for the internal sound engine as well

My thought was that the PC361 would be set up to be a controller for the software instruments (just like the Novation, CME, and Roland boards being discussed), the internal sound engine would be there just for emergency use. Since you wouldn't be using controls for both internal and external functions simultaneously (since you'd only use an internal patch when your external was unavailable), all the controls would be available for reassignment.

 

it has less buttons and no rotary encoders/pots.

True, it does not have as many panel controls. So you'd have to determine if it has enough. If it does, it is an enormously flexible controller, feels great, is built like a tank, and provides the backup sounds too. Knobbage might be a problem, but if you find it perfect in all other ways, adding something like a Novation Zero SL might not be too unwieldy. By itself, the Kurz does have 9 programmable sliders and 10 programmable buttons per preset, which isn't a bad start, and preset recall itself is better than on most boards. Plus it supports 5 pedals, a breath controller, and a ribbon, which itself can be split into regions to function as three controllers. So it has some unique advantages, too.

 

Yes, the lack of automapping could be another concern. I've never used any automapping system, so I won't comment on that.

 

Up to now, I couldn´t find out which keybeds are in a CME UF80 (classic).

Is anyone out there knowing this ?

I believe CME makes their own keybeds (and Arturia uses their keybeds as well).

[CEB]

Lots of knobs is very good. These are the VSTs I want to map to. I won't need to map live to all the knobs just the ones I need to tweak real time.

 

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2568/3941768000_768f0d529b.jpg

http://www.magesy.me/uploads/posts/2010-06/1276265145_memorymoon-messiah-vsti-1.3.gif

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Lots of knobs is very good. These are the VSTs I want to map to. I won't need to map live to all the knobs just the ones I need to tweak real time.

Ah, yes, lots of knobs!

 

I think it would be advantageous then to look for a controller with endless rotaries, so they don't "jump" to a value when moved, or alternatively, need to be moved enough to "catch" the current value before they do anything. I think that eliminates Roland and CME, but leaves Novation and Arturia in the running. Since this is for soft synth application, it also might be worth taking an extra look at the software that comes with the Arturia.

[CEB]

The first thing I looked at was Arturia Factory but it is bacially a bunch of presets ( it's around 3,500 preset) with limited edit capability. That was what I had in mind but for most guys that would probably be just the ticket.

 

Also I joined the Arturia forum and read it. There seems to be a lot of customers over there with problems that are really honked off at Arturia support.

[AnotherScott]

The first thing I looked at was Arturia Factory but it is bacially a bunch of presets ( it's around 3,500 preset) with limited edit capability.

The Laboratory (which comes with the 61) has more extensive editing capability than the Factory, but neither is fully editable, that's what their full-priced emulations are for. These are more limited--but still useful--versions that come bundled with the keyboards. Still, the other keyboards don't come with any soft synths at all! So I was suggesting the Arturia as a possible keyboard choice, with the software as kind of a free bonus, that might actually have some value to you.

 

Also I joined the Arturia forum and read it. There seems to be a lot of customers over there with problems that are really honked off at Arturia support.

Ah. If people are having problems with the boards, that would be an issue. If they have problems with the software, maybe not so much, if your use of it would be more minimal than people who are buying it primarily for the purpose of running their soft synths.

 

Is Novation's support better? That might be something to swing you more that way. CME's reputation for support is pretty dismal from what I've seen. Roland may be the safest bet since, regardless of support, their stuff is generally among the most solid out of the box (i.e. not as likely to be buggy/quirky as many of the "lesser" manufacturers). But I don't know much about Novation, maybe they've been solid too?