Workstation VST?

[Jim Alfredson]

Is there anything out there that replicates the Motif series in plug-in form?

 

My conundrum: I'm sitting here programming splits and layers on the Motif ES rack for the new material from Janiva Magness' upcoming CD. It used to be I just did Wurli, acoustic piano, and organ. But these new tunes are requiring other sounds, some at the same time, including melodica/accordian, toy piano, hand claps, and even some secondary guitar parts.

 

I can program the necessary splits and layers into my Motif ES rack with good results, but the problem is then I'm stuck hauling the rack around to EVERYTHING, including overseas gigs. It's not something I'm keen to do. I'd rather have the sounds I need on the laptop, since I always have my laptop with me anyway.

 

I'd love it if a single plug could give me what I need (something like Steinberg's HALion Sonic, perhaps?) but it's looking like I might need to do separate plugs.

 

Ideas?

[Jim Alfredson]

Criminey, programming the Motif ES rack through the screen is a pain in the butt. Tried loading up the Yamaha computer software for editing and got nowhere (confusing as all hell, and I consider myself pretty confident / knowledgeable about software. Who writes this shit?)

[Bridog6996]

It sounds like HALion Sonic would indeed do the trick if you're looking for the one-stop shop. I don't really have any experience with it, but it seems very Motif-like. There's probably a demo available, so it's worth checking out.

 

There are some other similar plugins that would probably fill the same role as well. Try Googling "VST instrument rack." They should all easily (more or less) allow to set up splits and layers as needed using whatever plugins and effects you wish. These would be simply VST hosts that rely on 3rd party plugins to actually generate sound.

[Bridog6996]

Speak of the devil....

 

You might also check out Brainspawn Forte, which just had a thread started about it:

 

The Forte Thread

 

I don't know much about it (I'm actually reading more about it myself right now), but it's supposed to be geared toward live performance.

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Jim, there are apps that will automate sampling of an external instrument (some of them are freeware). If you want specific sounds from the ES rack, you can sample them into any format that you like, and play them in Kontakt. Splits/layers should be a breeze in Cantabile or Forte.

 

If you've identified the specific sounds on the ES rack already, then the sampling route would be way quicker and less painful than auditioning the billions of VSTs out there to find the right sounds.

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes, I have HALion Sonic SE at home as part of Cubase but haven't used it much for more than just basic demos. I'll have to see if the Wurli and pianos are up to par. Then again, maybe the solution is something like Cantible or Brainspawn controlling a small bank of plugins to do what I want.

[Analogaddict]

I agree. I've looked high and low for a workstation VST, but none I've auditioned is as good as a dedicated module. Either because of lacking sounds or due to having too big samples. I use Redmatica's autosampler and keymap if I need specific sounds sampled, otherwise a used XV2020 or SonicCell are space effective alternatives.

[bloodyMary]

I've used Hypersonic 2 in the past. It's just what you're describing - a multitimbral sound module. It has a multi mode, supports patch changes, sound remain, very good interface. It's discontinued, though, but you can find one on ebay. Sound-wise,it's a rompler. Even has a drawbar emulation and a TA. The pianos are ok, Hammonds are a bit weak. Other sounds are great.

 

 

Another, more current solution, is IK sampleTank. It's a sampler, has 16 part multi, and comes with a rich library. To switch sounds on the fly you'd be better off with a utility such as midizone.de Midi Master Keyboard - it's a virtual master Keyboard, with zones, splits, etc. And it's free.

I like it even better than Forte.

[Ashville.Guru]

Then again, maybe the solution is something like Cantible or Brainspawn controlling a small bank of plugins to do what I want.

 

As I've noted on another thread, Cantabile is severely limited in its ability to instantly switch between patches involving splits and effects; and in any case you'd need the Performer version. Cantabile seems very functional at start, and for most simple requirements; but I had a bitter experience with it. After investing lots of time and effort configuring my setup, realized it doesn't support switching between a plugin in split/nonsplit mode. Forte is designed to do exactly what you need; strongly recommended.

[therealvicz]

The 'workstation' element is usually provided by the DAW. Personally I use Ableton Live which makes it very easy to set up keyboard splits and layers using a combination of built-in, VST and external sounds and devices (In Live I use its Instrument Racks feature to do this) . Audio and midi routing is a snap and its easy to trigger changes from an external controller if you want. Most DAWs can let you do this, even cheapies like Garageband and Reaper. IMHO If you are going to cart a laptop around you may as well make full use of it.

[resigned]

Reason would also be an effective choice. While it's not VST compatible there certainly are a ton of sounds available for it, and it seems to be less CPU-hungry than some DAWs.

[mcgoo]

NI Komplete

[therealvicz]

Reason doesn't support VSTs or Midi Out so would be pretty useless. Komplete is just a bundle of VSTs. Although some of them support splits and layers none of them host VSTs. NI Kore is a good performance tool that would work but is now discontinued. NI Maschine would work but is probably overkill. Mainstage and Logic are probably the most cost effective DAW solutions if you are on a mac, otherwise Reaper or Live or Cubase or one of these http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/the-15-best-daw-software-apps-in-the-world-today-238905/1 will do the job.

[kanker.]

Reason doesn't support VSTs or Midi Out so would be pretty useless

Reason doesn't have to support VSTs - it is basically a virtual ROMpler that also happens to have a sequencer. Also, using it just as a live performance ROMpler means MIDI OUT is totally unnecessary. Reason's a pretty good option, actually.

[therealvicz]

Reason doesn't support VSTs or Midi Out so would be pretty useless

Reason doesn't have to support VSTs - it is basically a virtual ROMpler that also happens to have a sequencer. Also, using it just as a live performance ROMpler means MIDI OUT is totally unnecessary. Reason's a pretty good option, actually.

 

I assumed he would want MIDI out so that he could mix onboard and VST sounds in the same combi. Why do you think Reason is a better option than Mainstage or Reaper for example? BTW I find that Reason 6 is a terrible resource hog compared to previous versions without Record. I also find it much more of a faff to create complex layouts in Reason than in Live.

[kanker.]

B3-er's on Windows, so that rules out Mainstage. Reason provides a single, integrated environment that doesn't rely on the hosting of plugins, much like you are able to do with Mainstage and Logic. Rather, the instruments are built into the app's code. The inherent extra stability this kind of one-stop-shop approach provides from well coded software like Reason and Logic is invaluable when you're on stage in front of a couple few thousand folks like B3-er will occasionally be, particularly on bigger festivals. Reason will potentially get him get all the sounds and functionality he needs for the price of one VST that might not cover half of it as well.

[Throbert]

Have you looked at sound quest for your ES rack? It's supported.

[b3maniac]

If you have the computer and ram enough to run it, I would think Kontakt offers the better options due to an extensive number of libraries that are available. I have Sampletank on my laptop, and

it runs much better for me due to the limitations of my old computer and limited memory. However Kontakt has the better sounds in my opinion. I recently got a Muse Receptor, and the sound quality is great. It seems to run most VST's pretty well, but I

am just learning how it operates and can't offer any input on the programing at this point. I can say I do like the Receptor though.

Don

[therealvicz]

I've owned Reason since v2.5 so I don't have a particular downer on it but I think its best days are behind it. Like most software I think it has become bloated and recent versions have lost the rock solid stability it was famous for. The built-in samples are fairly basic and though version 6 has added the ability to sample audio in I haven't played with this yet. It can be a nightmare navigating around the racks and SSL desk in v6 on a small screen, the cabling is fiddly once the novelty wears off and the sequencer remains basic. I would much rather use just Sampletank or Kontakt standalone for simple patches but if I was going to go to the hassle of performing live with a laptop - which I don't - I would want to use a decent DAW.

[Ashville.Guru]

Ummm... it would perhaps be useful to clear up a few concepts, and terminology. There appear to be some subtle misconceptions floating around in this thread; so please bear with me if most of this is obvious.

 

A 'virtual instrument' is a generic term for a piece of software, which you can install on a computer, effectively turning it into a sound module, playable from a MIDI keyboard. Since the overwhelming bulk of VIs are used in studio DAWs, certain industry standards were developed. Thus, for example, on Windows, you have the VST, which is a proprietary standard developed by Steinberg. On OSX, you have Audio Unit (AU), developed by Apple. There are many others also.

Most VIs are sold as plugins - VST/AU/others; some can alsobe used standalone.

 

But what are these plug-ins supposed to plug in to? As stated earlier, DAWs, mostly. And a DAW is another software intended to do a lot of things - typical studio stuff, mostly: recording/sequencing/composing (I know this is a broad generalization, but bear with me - it helps drive home the point).

 

So as powerful, portable computers become affordable, it made sense to use them as tone modules. All the ingredients are there - you've got your DAW, and you've got your plugins.

 

There's no question that it can work. The subtle, easy-to-miss point is that the typical DAW was (mostly) designed for studio work, not live work. Why is that a bad thing, so long as it works?

 

If you've ever considered using a computer as a tone module on stage, stability would have been a big-ass concern. If it wasn't, then that's a poor reflection on you as a professional music performer. Now bear in mind, that in any software, every additional feature often needs hundreds, sometimes thousands of lines of code. That's thousands of more ways a bug can enter into the system. Yes, there's this general rule of thumb - the more complex the program, the harder to keep it stable. I am very much aware of the exceptions, but they serve to prove the rule. Which is this: Keep it simple, stupid.

 

Consider the fact that your average DAW does a LOT of things more than the minimum a tone module is expected to do. Sequence, record, mix, and a lot of other stuff. Plus, a live musician would want to do a lot of stuff - splits/layers in the current thread, for example, that aren't as important on a DAW.

 

Why can't we have a host for plugins, designed exclusively for the live gigging musician, which will do everything he/she needs, but nothing more? This line of thinking lead to the development of the Live Plugin Host in the middle of the previous decade.

 

And yes, there have been several implementations of this idea. On Windows, for VST plugins, you have Cantabile, Brainspawn Forte, Bloxpander, Live Professor (which I just discovered yesterday!). For OSX, you have Mainstage and Rax. Then there's Bidule, which is the joker in the pack - not quite a DAW, not quite something designed exclusively for the stage - but is still in many ways ideal. The competition is good news, and has lead to the development of nicer and nicer features that make the life of the stage musician simpler.

 

To understand what these features are, and why there are important, the best way is to actually play with them. Imagine you have a setlist of songs, with each song involving multiple patches. You'd like each patch to be a complex combination of sounds from different plugins, split/layered and sent through different effects processors. You'd want to instantly switch between these patches instantly, from your keyboard/footswitch. You'd like your VSTs to respond to changes from your hardware.

 

Any pro musician with these requirements who has attempted to do this on a DAW and on a Live Plugin Host would be immediately able see the vast difference. Different horses for different courses. With respect to DAWs on stage, "can be done/has been done" does not make it a good recommendation.

 

Speaking of good recommendations, what I found most disturbing was to see the opinions of musos who don't use computers on stage, in this thread. There's this assumption that experience with computers in the studio/at home/at work automatically translates to expertise about them on stage... this is so scary, I'm at a loss to say anything about this.

 

EDIT: I'm not familiar with Reason that much, and most of the above long-winded post doesnt apply to it. But the point that Kanker makes is persuasive, and is in line with what I'm saying - simple and stable FTW.

[Bridog6996]

I hadn't thought of Reason, but it actually makes a lot of sense. The only potential PITA I foresee is that is that, depending on what the factory library is these days, you might end up buying a bunch of refills to get the sounds you need. When I bought Reason 4, I remember being not much impressed by the stock organ/piano/EP/etc samples. Maybe they've included more in the latest versions.

 

On the flip side, since it's essentially a ROMpler, you have the drawback of not being able to do much in the way of manipulating the tones for non-synth type sounds. For example, I would be frustrated playing any sampled organ patch (gotta have some drawbar parameters and such), and I don't even have half the organ playing experience that Jim does. And of course, no VST support means you can't bring in something like B4 or VB3 to use for organ.

[Charleston]

"Imagine you have a setlist of songs, with each song involving multiple patches. You'd like each patch to be a complex combination of sounds from different plugins, split/layered and sent through different effects processors."

 

Kore 2 was pretty nice, but they recently discontinued it. The browsing was great also (within Komplete stuff). I've still got it, but it's pretty much useless now with no support/upgrades/updates/etc.. Someone should run with this concept, right? Also, if there could be a standard developed in preset attributes between companies, browsing would be pretty amazing in general in a live host?

 

Old Promo Video - (Skip to 5:10 for the "live" standalone application):

[video:youtube]

[Bridog6996]

Thinking about this more, maybe Ableton Live might be the best possible option. Setting up instrument racks for splits and layers with effects is a snap, its collection of native plugins could probably cover most bases (or you could sample sounds that you need), and with the added benefit of VST support if you need or desire it for some better sound options. Very stable. There's a reason so many people use it for varying live applications. Hence the name "Live" I suppose.

[Al Coda]

After reading the OP´s 2 posts and all the other´s here,- I´d opt for NI Kontakt.

 

Motif ES is a hardware ROMpler,- so a software sample player would be ideal.

Kontakt comes w/ a usable library and there are tons of free and commercial stuff to choose from, customizing a library on demand.

NI Kontakt can be used standalone,- no host software required.

Eventually it would make sense to complete it w/ a quality synth like Uhe Zebra 2.5 and/or Sonic Projects OPX-Pro II,- all 2 or 3 requireing a host then.

 

Reaper 4 is a stable VST live host and builds multi MIDI channel/ multi out VSTi tracks automatically, saves such a setup (for Kontakt) as a track template, re-loadable in any new project the same way.

MIDI routing in Reaper is cool !

 

Kanker mentioned Phead Reason,- nothing against Reason here because I´m using it myself.

Given the fact Reason is very stable (yes it is´ and version 6 is too on my machine) and there is a s**tload of sounds coming w/ the factory and orchestral library,- the best sounds are 3rd party and also some of the freeware Refills are great.

But,- Reason (6) isn´t easy on the eyes and it also wasn´t in earlier versions.

Reason 4 or 5 would be ideal on a laptop, but Reason 6 isn´t.

Meanwhile, Reason 6 is hard to operate on 2 22"screens if you´re 5 feet away,- in fact I´d wish I´d have 1 or 2 screens more and that´s totally unacceptable (in) live (rehearsals).

Maybe, there´s no need of this kind of control once Reason will be configurated finally and as a touring startup document, but until this is done, it might kill you collecting all the sounds and preparing Reason devices for realtime control and MIDI PRG Changes.

 

I googled "Yamaha Motif for Kontakt" and found Motif ES-8 for Kontakt in the 1st 3 entries.

Don´t know if is cool,- but maybe worth a try.

 

A.C.

[Jim Alfredson]

I might just buy a back-up Motif ES rack, a universal 16vdc psu for it, and a really good flight case. That really appears to be the most ideal solution.

[therealvicz]

I might just buy a back-up Motif ES rack, a universal 16vdc psu for it, and a really good flight case. That really appears to be the most ideal solution.

 

FWIW That would be my choice

[Aidan]

Could the rack be specified as backline, then just carry the settings for it in the Yamaha editor on your laptop? Obviously, if a Motif classic or XS shows up, there might be issues... I don't know how much overlap there is between ES and XS, for example.

[Jim Alfredson]

You simply cannot rely on backline.

[Aidan]

Fair enough, Jim. Then I think your travelling hardware solution is the best and most likely having you sleep soundly.

 

Edit: I just got through looking at the Halion Sonic vids. Seems pretty nice, although the reference to partially streaming samples from disc gave me pause for thought in terms of absolute reliability live. I know it's a pain to schlep another bag but the rack still looks the best bet to me.

[bloodyMary]

Don't forget to get a solid state drive for your laptop. Bouncy stages and spinning hard drives make me uncomfortable...