Kurzweil PC3 or something else?

[Matej]

Hi!

 

I need advice. I am getting lazy and don't want to carry a lot of equipment anymore. My plan is to buy a keyboard with good semi-weighted action that I could use as my only board. When I would need to play more piano I would just add my Yamaha P80 underneath.

 

I play in a cover band and need the following sounds:

-piano

-organ

-strings

-brass (something to add to trumpet and trombone player, I don't need to imitate acoustic instruments)

-various synth sounds

-various ep sounds (I prefer playability to realism - I hate velocity switching)

-accordion

-clarinet

 

 

My first choice would probably be Nord Stage 2 Compact, but it's too expensive. So I'm thinking about PC3 (76 key model) or PC3 LE(6 or 7). I tried PC3 K8 briefly, but I can't find any PC3 with semi weighted action to try.

 

Does anyone know which other keyboards have the same Fatar TP8 action? I like the Yamaha action that they used to put in everything from DX7 to Korg Triton. The Keys on Electro are also nice for example. But I don't want keys to be too short, so that when you play between black keys, the keys hardly move. Roland A33, which has otherwise great feeling keys has that problem. From the pictures on Fatar website it looks that TP8 has longer keys. So, what do you think, would PC3 keys suit me?

 

I would also like to know how easy it is to set splits, change sounds during song, etc. I would program few setups (or whathever they are called by Kurzweil) that I would use often (organ/piano, strings/piano...) and than maybe 20 or 30 song specific setups. How about changing sound with footswitch? So that I don't have to program 3 splits but just 2 and change sound under one hand with footswitch. I'm sure it can be done but how practical is it?

 

What about fm synthesis? Can VAST do it? It would be great to have some fm electric pianos. Not that I am huge fan of 80's pop ballads but I like how fm can respond to velocity.

 

In specifications for PC3 it says that voltage is selectable. I guess that means I could buy one from USA and use it here in europe. I would rather have PC3 then LE version, but I don't know if I can get one nearby.

 

Can you suggest any other keyboard? I really like that PC3 has virtual hammond organ and VA synth engine. The geek in me also wants VAST although I would probably rarely need it.

 

Thanks!

[AnotherScott]

Personally, I think the PC361 keyboard is better than the semiweighted PC3LE series keyboards for anything except piano (where I don't care for either)... though the 361 may not have the key length you prefer.

 

Assuming you want drawbar level organ control, I do think Kurz is your best bet, though. Roland VR-700 doesn't have accordion or clarinet. Hammond SK1 doesn't have clarinet. Korg Kronos would be pricey, and you've already ruled out the Nord Stage 2 for the same reason. Nord Electro 3 doesn't do splits.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I own all three of the PC3 versions. Note that the PC3 (all 3 sizes) has been discontinued and replaced by the PC3K series - although there are still some good deals around on the earlier version.

 

Keyboard feel: The 76 key PC3 to me is a very good compromise - it is a tad heavy for fast synth leads or Hammond playing, but can still be played pianisticly, although I prefer the fully weighted 88 for romantic era classical music. My PC361 action is a pure synth action, and is more difficult to play piano unless I just want full bore rock piano. I did own a Nord Electro 3 73 (which I replaced with the 361), and the keyboards feel quite similar (don't sound similar, but feel similar). The PC3 is my normal gigging board, the 361 usually stays at church, but is occasionally carried around. The 88 key usually stays in my studio.

 

I have no problem with the length of the keys - they seem to be about the same length as the keys on my acoustic grand.

 

I could have bought the LE, but wanted the higher end version, specifically for the 9 sliders that I use when playing Hammond as drawbars.

 

MIDI control functions are extensive. Setting up splits is not difficult - Kurzweil calls them zones. I do tend to make up setups in advance, don't like to make changes at last minute. I don't use splits much, I use two boards instead (PC2 and PC361 at church).

 

If you buy one, be sure to update the OS. Even now, new ones are still being shipped with 1.35. 2.03 is the current production OS, and has many improvements. 2.10 is in beta test stage now.

 

[Aidan]

I'd say the Kurz looks a good bet for you. In the absence of a MOX7, there isn't anything really very comparable apart from the NS2 compact you've already ruled out.

 

One caveat - the keyboard action on my PC3LE7 is a good compromise, as MBK noted, but it does feel quite firmly sprung to me and one reason I've not played it extensively since buying is I suspect it could lead to hand problems. That's obviously a personal perspective based on my own physique but if you can try one out before buying, even if it's only the LE version (same keybed as PC3K76 I think).

[AnotherScott]

I'd say the Kurz looks a good bet for you. In the absence of a MOX7, there isn't anything really very comparable apart from the NS2 compact you've already ruled out.

He hasn't ruled out a 61-key board (he said that the PC3LE6 was a possibility). MOX6 would be a good choice except for the lack of full drawbar organ emulation (which is sketchy in the PC3LE series without the faders, but there are still ways to do it).

[Aidan]

Sorry, Scott, good spot. I was very impressed by both MOXes when I tried them out a few months back - solid value for money, light and compact.

[Synthoid]

He hasn't ruled out a 61-key board

 

Biggest bang for the buck would be the PC361 from Nova Musik for $969.00.

[Jeff Comella]

Ditto on the PC3... great board & sound set..slower to do splits compared to other boards...you can program setups in advance and be ready to gig.. As mentioned, PC3 is a semi weighted action suited more or piano than organ. The board is somewhat complex and way too deep for me, as you can get heavy into programming and tweaking forever...however the stock sounds are excellent and you can quickly access them too. There are too many great sounds. lol

 

I also have the Nord Electro 3 73 which I like more for organ, but the pianos are good. It is a simple board.

 

For rehearsal the Nord is only 20lbs...and the PC3 is 37lbs.

Most of the time I take the Nord as it is much easier to carry...37 lbs is acceptable and welcomed, as most full weighted 88 keys are in the bulky 55lb range.

 

I had a Kurz PC161 61 keys which was a synth action and did not care for it at all for piano...again great sounds and was very compact.

Overall, The PC3 is a great choice.

[Matej]

Thank you for all the answers!

 

I have no problem with the length of the keys - they seem to be about the same length as the keys on my acoustic grand.

 

I didn't explain this but I meant total length of the key from pivot point (is this the right expression?) to the end, including the part that you can't see.

If you look at this two pictures:

 

http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8S.htm

and

http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_9S.htm

 

you can see that TP8 key's pivot point is further back, so it might be easier to play between black keys.

 

One caveat - the keyboard action on my PC3LE7 is a good compromise, as MBK noted, but it does feel quite firmly sprung to me and one reason I've not played it extensively since buying is I suspect it could lead to hand problems.

How would you compare it to Yamaha action (I think it's called FS) that was in most workstations from DX7 to motif (at least the first motif, I don't know about the new ones) and also in Korg keyboards like Trinity and Triton?

 

He hasn't ruled out a 61-key board (he said that the PC3LE6 was a possibility). MOX6 would be a good choice except for the lack of full drawbar organ emulation (which is sketchy in the PC3LE series without the faders, but there are still ways to do it).

61-key board is certanly an option. I ruled out PC361 because I'm almost certain that I wouldn't like it's action. But PC3 LE6 has the same action as 76 keys PC3. Of course I would prefer older PC3 to LE version because of sliders and better leslie simulation but I have to find one. Just looking at specs I would prefer PC3 to Yamaha because of hammond and virtual analog engines, but these aren't necessary. More important to me is keyboard action and except Electro I never played a keyboard that would be so light and have a decent action. If I find it on Yamaha (I'm sure it will be easier to find one to try) that would be great, because portability is very important to me.

 

 

[reidmc]

A year or so ago I had the same objective you have now. I got a PC3LE6. At the time I was unaware that a 76-key LE was coming out. That would definitely be my preference as 61 keys is a bit too short for some piano parts and splits. Perfect for a second board with your Yamaha though. I'd opt for the PC3LE7.

 

As for the action (on either of them), you do need to try it - or try another board with the same Fatar keybed. It is certainly sprung, though you can adjust velocity/touch to your taste. As frequently noted here, the Kurweil piano sounds are not the greatest for solo piano or big exposed parts but work well in mixes, and they can be optimized by stripping out all the reverb/delay etc. attached to the stock sounds and building it back up to your taste, which is super-easy to do on the LEs. I do end up getting pretty good sounding pianos, though the sprung keyboard means that my fingers are working differently than they would on a real acoustic piano.

 

The quality and variety of EPs is very good. If I was really focused on the organ sounds I'd kill the leslie sim and get a Ventilator. I don't mind the rotary pots, and overall get some nice organ textures out of the board.

 

Finally, I don't believe there is an accordion sound on the LE. I'm sure there is some sort of work around but I'm pretty lazy and use my melodica when I want that flavor.

[AnotherScott]

Finally, I don't believe there is an accordion sound on the LE. I'm sure there is some sort of work around but I'm pretty lazy and use my melodica when I want that flavor.

I couldn't believe they could miss that so I checked the data list... Program 177 is ParisCmboAccordn and there's also a GM accordion at 4117.

[reidmc]

Scott: I will admit I was counting on you to prove me wrong

[Aidan]

One caveat - the keyboard action on my PC3LE7 is a good compromise, as MBK noted, but it does feel quite firmly sprung to me and one reason I've not played it extensively since buying is I suspect it could lead to hand problems.

How would you compare it to Yamaha action (I think it's called FS) that was in most workstations from DX7 to motif (at least the first motif, I don't know about the new ones) and also in Korg keyboards like Trinity and Triton?

 

It's definitely stiffer and more "weighted" than the keybed of, say, a Yamaha XS or XF6 or 7, so it's a far better compromise for playing piano on.

[AnotherScott]

It's definitely stiffer and more "weighted" than the keybed of, say, a Yamaha XS or XF6 or 7, so it's a far better compromise for playing piano on.

It is subjective, though. It's so springy that I think I would probably actually prefer those Yamaha keybeds! But there's obviously no substitute for trying these things yourself. Like the Nord Stage Compact or the non-HP E3s, I really dislike them for piano too, but some people are fine with them. And plenty of people are obviously fine with the semiweighted Kurz actions too.

[Aidan]

Yeah very springy, hence my worries about hand stresses and subsequent offloading (imminently) of this particular instrument.

 

Hmm - given my current GS ad maybe I should just STFU huh?

[Matej]

It's so springy that I think I would probably actually prefer those Yamaha keybeds!

I usually don't like springy keybeds so it looks I should really try it first. If only I could find one nearby.

 

As for the action (on either of them), you do need to try it - or try another board with the same Fatar keybed.

Do you know which keyboards have the same Fatar TP8 keybed?

 

the Kurweil piano sounds are not the greatest for solo piano or big exposed parts but work well in mixes

That's what I'm looking for. For solo piano or big exposed parts weighted keys (and probably better pianist ) are necessary. For this board organ and synth sounds are more important to me.

 

If I don't choose PC3 I could buy Stage 1 and add a small module. Adding modules is the thing I would like to avoid with new keyboard, but if the module was really small and velcroed to Stage, I guess I could live with it. Do you have any suggestions for the module? Something really cheap and small.

 

[Cowzar]

I would also like to know how easy it is to set splits, change sounds during song, etc. I would program few setups (or whathever they are called by Kurzweil) that I would use often (organ/piano, strings/piano...) and than maybe 20 or 30 song specific setups. How about changing sound with footswitch? So that I don't have to program 3 splits but just 2 and change sound under one hand with footswitch. I'm sure it can be done but how practical is it?

 

Can all be done, and you can see how its done before owning the instrument. Kurzweil have a very informative section, though not as obvious as it should be called SUPPORT. If you click their and then on KNOWLEDGE BASE, you will get to a whole heap of good "How to" information for the PC3.

 

 

 

What about fm synthesis? Can VAST do it? It would be great to have some fm electric pianos. Not that I am huge fan of 80's pop ballads but I like how fm can respond to velocity

 

Can be done - ackward though.

We are still waiting for the dedicated dsps since the K2000. Fingers crossed.

The PC3 V2 came with some nice FM type EP's.

Look around also on YouTube for PoserP's tutorials on FM on the PC3 series.

 

 

In specifications for PC3 it says that voltage is selectable. I guess that means I could buy one from USA and use it here in europe. I would rather have PC3 then LE version, but I don't know if I can get one nearby.

 

Talk directly with Kurzweil on this.

Dave Weiser (Kurzweil) should be around this forum somewhere, thats a start. He should be able to find the right links in the chains on where you are and who the nearest Kurzweil Distributor is.

 

Can you suggest any other keyboard? I really like that PC3 has virtual hammond organ and VA synth engine. The geek in me also wants VAST although I would probably rarely need it.

 

Parameter junky heh.

Be careful what you wish for... I've programmed , looked out the window and whole seasons have changed.

[johnchop]

Regarding the action, I came from playing a MO8 (Yamaha graded hammer) and a Korg M3-61 (smooth synth feel). At first, I didn't really connect to the action: "weirdly sproingy" was how I described it. I got used to it after a couple of weeks, and after a year of ownership it has loosened up noticeably, in a good way. I'd say it's a very good compromise for playing a variety of sounds.

 

I would suggest looking at the default velocity map, and perhaps changing it from Linear to Piano, or whatever else suits you. That's made a huge difference in the playability of pianos and EPs.

 

I've had no hand or wrist fatigue with this action, compared to, say, the Electro 3, which I simply could not play comfortably for long.

 

Re: FM, I use one of the many (sample-based) DX/TX piano presets and call it a day. 80s cheez on demand!

 

I'm one of those who likes the piano sound for live work but not for solo or recording (given other options). I mean, it's serviceable, but since getting my Kawai DP, my expectations have gone way up.

 

Good luck!

-John

 

 

 

-John

[AnotherScott]

If I don't choose PC3 I could buy Stage 1 and add a small module. Adding modules is the thing I would like to avoid with new keyboard, but if the module was really small and velcroed to Stage, I guess I could live with it. Do you have any suggestions for the module? Something really cheap and small.

A Roland JV-1010 or XV-2020 should do the trick.

 

But... if you're talking about the 73-key Stage (unweighted), if it uses the same action as the current Stage 2 (which I think it does), I don't think it solves the keyboard action problem. I don't think it feels better for piano than the Kurz does, so you're back where you started anyway.

 

If you're willing to add a module for the missing sounds, I'd look at the Roland VR-700, which I ruled out for you for not having accordion or clarinet, which the module would add. The VR-700 isn't nearly as capable as the Kurzweil overall, but of non-piano weighted actions, it is one of the best feeling actions for piano I ever played. Having real drawbars is a plus too. It's a fun, good-feeling board to play, I almost considered buying one a couple of times, but just couldn't deal with its bulky 35 pounds. (It's still no harder to handle than a PC3 or PC3LE, though.)

 

(I should mention I've never played a Hammond SK1, so I can't offer any first hand opinion about how its action compares to Roland or Kurz for playing piano, but an educated guess based on comments here is that it probably doesn't feel too much different from Nord... maybe a bit less springy feeling? Maybe someone else here who has played both can compare them from a piano playing perspective.)

 

Of course, once you switch from "all in one board" to "all in one board plus a small module," some other possibilities can open up. One thing that narrowed your list was the requirement for drawbar-style organ functionality. If you put that in a module (say, a Roland VK-8M), then you could look at the Yamaha MOX6 mentioned earlier, which does everything else you asked for very well. Its action for piano is okay for a non piano weighted board. I would say it's better than the Nord or Kurzweil, but not as good as the VR-700. Its sounds and flexibility are better than the VR-700, though, and it only weighs about 15 lbs (it's also only 61 keys, though). I think you could velcro the VK-8M to the top of it okay, though it would overhang a good amount.

[ITGITC]

I've programmed , looked out the window and whole seasons have changed.

 

 

Thanks for posting, Mr. Cowzar.

 

Tom

 

[Steveaudio]

I've only had my PC3 for a few days. It's everything the positive reviews say it is, & all I've been doing so far is playing thru the factory sounds. The EP's are the best digital EP's I've ever heard, if that's important. In fact, it also "feels" a lot like playing a real Rhodes, as best as I can remember. The synths & pads sound amazing, & I've barely started getting into them. Organs are very usable, depends on how organ-focused you are.

 

The action is very slightly springy--I guess--but it's very even & easy to play smoothly. I think of it more as somewhat "stiff", & I do have to adapt a bit & keep it in mind while playing. (My "standard" for horrible springy-ness is the SP88x, where I could literally see & hear the keys bouncing up & down while playing, & my wrists ached after playing for 5 minutes).

 

The 37 lbs--I'd buy something lighter (& keep the PC3 too) if I had to schlep & set up/tear down a lot--YMMV. Finally, used PC3's are selling for about $1200-$1300 on fee-bay now (in the US), & are a huge bargain at that price IMO.

 

 

[Analogaddict]

I would also like to know how easy it is to set splits, change sounds during song, etc. I would program few setups (or whathever they are called by Kurzweil) that I would use often (organ/piano, strings/piano...) and than maybe 20 or 30 song specific setups. How about changing sound with footswitch? So that I don't have to program 3 splits but just 2 and change sound under one hand with footswitch. I'm sure it can be done but how practical is it?

 

There's no better synth on the market for doing advanced stuff with multiple sounds. Any switch/button/controller can be used to send any cc 0-169. There are also several ways of changing sounds;

 

Muting/unmuting zones within a setup,

Changing setups (increase, decrease, go to)

Sending program changes within setups

Using QA (Quick Access) mode to toggle between setups and/or programs

Changing manually by dialling and pressing enter or +/-

 

All this can be done with any controller you desire, even aftertouch... You can invert values and change many zones at once.

[SVG]

Also don't forget that the PC3LE series can have some seriously deep editing capabilities with the SoundTower editor (not free for the LE), as well as the ability to download any sound made for the PC3 series as can be found on Sonikmatter or Mastering V.A.S.T. Many accordions have been put up on offer at both sites.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

.

[Synthguy]

I'd have to say as someone familiar with the PC3 that you should save your pennies and get a full blown 3 over the LE. The jump in capability, especially with the better endowed control panel and effects, and all the patches available for it, make it worth the extra cost.

[jimmymio]

I need something with more sounds than my electro 2 so I'm thinking of getting the pc361 as my second tier board. How much better is the electro 2 organ than the pc361? Any other comparisons between the two?

 

I'm also considering the new Casio xw-p1. Got to love the price and weight but I'm wondering how well it would hold up physically and I if it would have the breadth and quality of sounds found on the 361.

 

I'm also considering a Vent to go with either the 361 or the Casio. Anybody use a Vent with the PC361?

 

Thanks

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Don't know about the xw-p1. I replaced an Electro 3 with a PC361. With the current OS, the Leslie sims are close to each other, though I would give the Electro a slight edge. The tonal qualiy of the organ sound itself - the Kurzweil is darker, but both do resemble various tonewheels that I've played. I did NOT like the Electro 3 patch assignment, nor the way that it seemed once the registrations get up higher, it seemed to compress.

 

I never played an Electro 2 - most of the info on the forums slaims that the 3 sounds better than the 2.

 

I don't have a Vent, but know others who do, and who use them with the Kurzweils. Editing out the Leslie effect on the PC3 series is reasonably simple (although it needs to be done for each KB3 patch). If I was playing in a organ trio or some other highly exposed situation, I would be more interested in the Vent. Playing along with a couple of full bands - I'm well satisfied with the PC361 by itself (or the PC3 for that matter, or both for real dual manual controls).

 

[AnotherScott]

How much better is the electro 2 organ than the pc361?

I would not assume that that the E2 organ is better than the PC361 to begin with.

[Matej]

I finally found a used PC3 not to far away from me and bought it yesterday.

 

I really like the sounds, but I haven't decided yet on the keyboard feel. I find it relatively easy to control dynamics, but because of strong springs my hands feel a little tired after playing. I also have a feeling like there was a little latency after pressing the key and before it sounds, but it doesn't bother me.

 

In the meantime I also tried Stage Compact. I was impressed by the user interface, I liked the action, but its sounds are not what I need. It has very little room on the top so if I attached a module, it had to be really small. Something like this:

http://www.ketron.com/specs_descrit.asp?mod=SD2

But keyboard and module together would cost be much more then pc3.

 

When I find time I will start programing setups and I'm sure I'll have some more questions then.

 

Thanks again!

[Tonysounds]

Interesting. I thought the keybed on the PC3 was wonderful. While a lot of bang for the buck, the sounds of the Kurzweil did not do it for mealthough the orchestral and vintage synth stuff was outstanding. Hope it works out for you!

[Aidan]

I haven't decided yet on the keyboard feel. I find it relatively easy to control dynamics, but because of strong springs my hands feel a little tired after playing.

 

This is exactly the issue I had with the PC3LE7.