J. Dan Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Currently our drummer uses electric pads through a Roland drum module - an old one on it's last leg. One of the outputs went bad - we used to do kick, snare, toms, and FX (mix of claps, tambourines, and other percussion) for the outputs, but combined FX on the toms channel when his output went bad. It's been working fine, but if that module craps out, we're dead. Also, half the songs that we use sequences for are for percussion, and a lot of it is stuff like claps because his module doesn't allow to layer sounds, like claps on snare, or do samples. So I'm thinking, use a trigger to midi module, and run drums out of the KRONOs using Aux outs, I could layer sounds, use samples, whatever we need. It just means that instead of patches, I'll need combis with a drum patch. I can't think of any caveats off hand. Thoughts? Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Yeah one thought. For a band making as much money as you guys do, you sure tend to wait til the last minute with new gear purchases. Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Love the Kronos drums... you checked out the EXS 10 library? I kinda wish there was a more normal pop/soul/funk library but not really looked into it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Yeah one thought. For a band making as much money as you guys do, you sure tend to wait til the last minute with new gear purchases. Yeah, I'm bad enough, but our drummer is REALLY bad. He's always using paper clips and other BS to get kick pedals working and other crap. This drum module was the on bought by the original drummer before I was even in the band. I've fixed it before, and it lost all the saved patches once. Can't force him to buy new shit, but I can take over by using the Kronos. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Currently our drummer uses electric pads through a Roland drum module - an old one on it's last leg. One of the outputs went bad - we used to do kick, snare, toms, and FX (mix of claps, tambourines, and other percussion) for the outputs, but combined FX on the toms channel when his output went bad. It's been working fine, but if that module craps out, we're dead. Also, half the songs that we use sequences for are for percussion, and a lot of it is stuff like claps because his module doesn't allow to layer sounds, like claps on snare, or do samples. So I'm thinking, use a trigger to midi module, and run drums out of the KRONOs using Aux outs, I could layer sounds, use samples, whatever we need. It just means that instead of patches, I'll need combis with a drum patch. I can't think of any caveats off hand. Thoughts? Do it. Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Can't force him to buy new shit, but I can take over by using the Kronos. Sure you can, "No you cheap phoque, you can't use my $3k Kronus for your drum sounds" That was easy. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 +1. Yeah, you can. "Sorry, we need a guy who actually has the tools!" Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You're in an 80's band that uses backing tracks, right? What's the problem? Program the drum parts and let him just sit there. He'll either step up or sit in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 +1. Yeah, you can. "Sorry, we need a guy who actually has the tools!" Yes, we could say that when it finally craps out, but for now he's kept it all working when it counts. Plus, I'm thinking there would be advantages in using th kronos over any available drum module anyway, which is ACTUALLY THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. I don't recall hearing from people who have used the drums, particularly in a live setting. Before I go to the effort of setting it up for every song, I was looking for opinions and insights into any foreseeable caveats. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceNorman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ...our drummer is REALLY bad. He's always using paper clips and other BS to get kick pedals working and other crap. To me this isn't an issue of can you make it work - but rather one of should you make it work. While I admire the McGyver types who can fix stuff with gum, gaff tape, and pen parts in a pinch - I'm not crazy about bandmates who are too lazy and/or too cheap to maintain their rigs. I don't expect guys to be constantly upgrading to the latest and greatest - but I do expect gigs aren't constantly being disrupted by intermittent cable problems, constand battles with tape wadded microphone stands, crackly pots, etc. We'd be having a long sitdown before I started providing drum sounds to cover for his unwillingness to maintain his kit. The SpaceNorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 You're in an 80's band that uses backing tracks, right? What's the problem? Program the drum parts and let him just sit there. He'll either step up or sit in it. We use very little backing track. I'm not interested in sequencing drums. He uses electric drums. I'm interested in him triggering sounds out of the Knonos instead of a drum module. I'm looking for those who may think of things I'm missing. So far, pros: Easier in setup to get all the various sounds mixed appropriately from song to song Ability to layer sounds per pad and trigger sampled sounds Ability to use any trigger to midi module to trigger drums in a pinch Ability to put sequenced percussion on drum track instead of keyboard track (ex, reverse reverb on toms in pour some sugar on me and rebel yell - if it's on the Tom channel, don't have o rely on FOH to have keys/toms mix right for that effect to one together) Cons: Everything in he Kronos - if I lose i, we lose keys AND drums Everything we play would have to have a combi including a rum patch at a minimum. Complicates things for me a bit, simplifies things fir him, but overall saves effort since right now we BOTH have to load setlsts into our gear. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 We'd be having a long sitdown before I started providing drum sounds to cover for his unwillingness to maintain his kit. Either I miscomunicated something, or you guys are missing the point. You all seem to want to forget about discussing drums in the Kronos, and instead bash on the drummer. Granted, that can e a lot of fun, but that wasn't the point. I don't kno a drummer who hasn't had to put serious time and investment into mechanical upkeep. Even when you spend many hundreds of dollars on a kick pedal, it eventually breaks and you have to fix or replace it. We aren't having interruptions to gigs or anything. But like most drummers, that's his focus. Most drummers don't focus on drum sound programming, he's done well with what's available. Most drum modules, surprisingly, don't layer and/or sample. Plus the perceived advantages I'm thinking of having it lumped together with t Kronos. As far as "tracks". We have no separate tracks. I have some sequences, which means it's coming out the same output as what I'm playing. To put it in perspective, in any given night playing about 47 songs, maybe 10 have sequences - and I'm thinking I could drop a few of those if he could trigger layers and samples from the pads. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceNorman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Either I miscomunicated something, or you guys are missing the point. You all seem to want to forget about discussing drums in the Kronos, and instead bash on the drummer. My bad - your statement about your drummer "always using paperclips and other BS to get pedals working and other crap" opened that door. As far as using your Kronos as a sound source goes - my guess it that you can find a way to make it work. It's a highy flexible sound engine. However, I certainly would not want to be "sharing" what I'm assuming is one of YOUR primary sound engines with another band member ... one mis-pressed button could easily throw both you and him into a tizzy from a sound palette perspective. The SpaceNorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 +1. Yeah, you can. "Sorry, we need a guy who actually has the tools!" Yes, we could say that when it finally craps out, but for now he's kept it all working when it counts. Plus, I'm thinking there would be advantages in using th kronos over any available drum module anyway, which is ACTUALLY THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. I don't recall hearing from people who have used the drums, particularly in a live setting. Before I go to the effort of setting it up for every song, I was looking for opinions and insights into any foreseeable caveats. My opinion is......how much is this cheapass making per gig? Thought so..... A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This won't be much help, but my 0.000002: Suffice to say (since there are no takers so far) that users leaning on Kronos as an external drum module is probably a very small minority. I very much like the drums sounds I have heard out of mine, but have never given them a second thought as far as live usage - all my gigs use live drummers, and none of them use electronics of any kind. For your usage, like you say in your OP, I can't think of any caveats - other than the the obvious inconvenience of interdependency - the drummer's now counting on you as part of his rig. That in itself would be a deal killer for me but I'm not you. I've not dabbled in Kronos MIDI implementation much, nor have I A/B'd Kronos drums vs. dedicated modules. Don't know if anyone else has either. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 My opinion is......how much is this cheapass making per gig? Thought so..... Have you priced drum hardware and electric drum pads and modules? He has to replace hardware all the time. $400 a pop on pedals, a few hundred on a stand when something strips out, new triggers - I'd say he's the only one in the band in the ballpark of gear investment to me. If you're going to call somebody a cheapskate, how about the singer, who owns a microphone? The point is.....rather than buying a drum module (which he was getting ready to do, due to the condition of the one he's been doing), would it be better to use a trigger to midi module with the Kronos. He could keep his existing module as a redundant backup. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 My opinion is......how much is this cheapass making per gig? Thought so..... Have you priced drum hardware and electric drum pads and modules? He has to replace hardware all the time. $400 a pop on pedals, a few hundred on a stand when something strips out, new triggers - I'd say he's the only one in the band in the ballpark of gear investment to me. If you're going to call somebody a cheapskate, how about the singer, who owns a microphone? The point is.....rather than buying a drum module (which he was getting ready to do, due to the condition of the one he's been doing), would it be better to use a trigger to midi module with the Kronos. He could keep his existing module as a redundant backup. If his gear's wearing out that quickly, he needs to either buy better gear, or treat it better. I know a lot of guys working a lot more that you guys who's gear lasts years, decades even.... As to your gig issue, I'd try it out repeatedly at setup (or a couple of good long rehearsals) over the next month or so trying everything you can think of in the process to make it not work, to make the Kronos freak out. If you can't make it freak, go for it. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 However, I certainly would not want to be "sharing" what I'm assuming is one of YOUR primary sound engines with another band member ... one mis-pressed button could easily throw both you and him into a tizzy from a sound palette perspective. Thank you - that is definitely a worthy caveat to consider. The setlist feature means I can hold out sounds while having him switched to he next one. Worst case scenario, assuming every patch has a drum set associated, he has the wrong kick/snare sound for a measure until I fix it - not the end of the world. But since you brought it up,one problem I just thought of is a power cycle. If the keyboard needs 2 sec to boot, we could go to a guitar song - but not without drums.....hmm. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Have you priced drum hardware and electric drum pads and modules? He has to replace hardware all the time. I thought you were pointing out that he wasn't. Using paper clips... etc. etc. The point is.....rather than buying a drum module (which he was getting ready to do, due to the condition of the one he's been doing), would it be better to use a trigger to midi module with the Kronos. He could keep his existing module as a redundant backup. Why wouldn't you just use the MIDI out of the current module? This drum module was the on bought by the original drummer before I was even in the band. Sounds like he is using "Band Owned" gear. Why should he personally upgrade "Band Owned" gear? The band should upgrade it. Of course, that is only if the precedence was made that he use "Band Owned" gear. Either I miscomunicated something, or you guys are missing the point. You all seem to want to forget about discussing drums in the Kronos, and instead bash on the drummer. I'm guessing the prior. All we know about your drummer is what little you have shared. I doubt anyone here is using the Kronos as a sound module for their drummer to use live. No reason it wouldn't So try it. If it doesn't work, try something else. How long was the reboot time again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Rock star drummer needz rock star gear. Kronos is one option, but why make him fully reliant on what the keyboard player suggests? What are the drummer forums recommending? Is he working on it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Rather than do a bunch of quotes from prior posts, I'll just wing it... He bought the gear from the previous drummer. He's replaced lots of gear, including all the pads, lots of hardware, and most of his cymbals overbite last 6 years. He has to mcGuyver shit from time to time because the nature of mechanical equipment, is that when a pin shears, it shears. When a thread strips, it strips. That tends to be a maintenance focus. He has been looking at modules for quite a while. I suggested using the Kronos, not him. He Could use the current module to trigger sounds. I just thought, save it as a backup for redundancy. I don't know of any drummer forums covering this topic...suggestions? Regardless of a recommended replacement module, i'll direct you towards my perceived advantages in using the Kronos. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Do you stil have your Triton? Let him use that! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Do you stil have your Triton? Let him use that! Yes, but that would require bringing it out - sort of defeats the purpose. Trying to REDUCE gear, not add. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVG Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Okay, let's stop bashing the drummer for being a cheap skate. Why don't you just get a new keyboard player... one who has the balls to stand up to the drummer and get him to own up to his dying electronic drums? Oh, am I being helpful again? Stephen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickd Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'd argue best not to use the Kronos - as others have said, you're putting all your eggs in one basket. And if you use a separate module, the drummer can take it home with him to set it up properly or add new sounds when you add new songs, and can keep it next to him on the stage in case he needs to tweak anything mid-gig. Surely a good drum module that plays the right sounds and lets you add some samples can't be very expensive nowadays? The new Nord one? One of the Roland or Alesis products? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The way I try to set my rig up, I try to be able to play the whole gig with any of my two main keyboard, in case one of them dies. So for me, setting things up for another player could be a rather big deal programming wise. But if you have the time, it may very well be worth it - just have a backup plan. If you use a midi split box, you should be able to send his midi to the Kronos and perhaps his old, failing module on a muted mixer channel - just in case the K goes down. Our drummer is probably getting the Nord Drum, but we've been doing stuff where he triggers sounds from my synths, at one gig our lead singer played timbales from my PC3 via an Alesis pad - worked like a charm using the separate outs. The only problem was the lack of instant gain control - if a drum sound comes out at the wrong volume, you can't adjust it via a master fader so you'll be more reliant on a good sound guy who knows what the song is supposed to sound like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 He has to replace hardware all the time. $400 a pop on pedals, a few hundred on a stand when something strips out, new triggers - I'd say he's the only one in the band in the ballpark of gear investment to me. I am with those in this thread who see this as a "people" issue as much as an "instrument" issue. If there are significant differences in wealth, tools, resourcefulness and commitment, a band will develop issues. Only you can judge this and you have a wealth of experience playing in bands, but I would only share the Kronos soundsource after being certain the other factors aren't trumping your good intentions. Will sharing the Kronos instruments help him with his development, or make his development less necessary? Will he carry the weight at some point? All the best, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Jx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 My drummer uses an electric drum kit. I suppose I could have him trigger sounds off my keyboards, I don't think either of us would like tha arrangement. The reason is, when we learn new songs, I spend more time trying to match sounds than I do learning the actual notes. When I listen to a song, my ear is trained to hear the keyboard part first. I don't spend any time thinking about drum sounds. I can tell a dance kit from a rock kit, but I really don't want to be bothered having to listen to songs over and over to determine if the original drummer used Paiste or Zildjian cymbals. My current drummer DOES tweak his sound per songs. I'm sure he doesn't spend as much time as me, but he does change his sound. He tweaks his cymbal sound occasionaly during practice. It will be a subtle difference. I never understand why he was compelled to make the change, but it's important to him, so if he thinks it works better, that's what matters. If he was triggering my gear, I'D HAVE TO PUT IN THAT TIME. That's time I don't have. Trying to exactly match a kick drum is a skill that I don't have, and not a skill I think I want to learn. Even if my ear was good enough, things like velocity curve come into play and tweaks like that can only really be addressed by the guy actually playing the kit. Leave the drum programming to the drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonysounds Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You all seem to want to forget about discussing drums in the Kronos.... Yeah, probably! ... and instead bash on the drummer. Yeah, probably! Even when you spend many hundreds of dollars on a kick pedal, it eventually breaks and you have to fix or replace it. We aren't having interruptions to gigs or anything. Thats certainly different than this: Yeah, I'm bad enough, but our drummer is REALLY bad. He's always using paper clips and other BS to get kick pedals working and other crap. I've fixed it before, and it lost all the saved patches once. Can't force him to buy new shit, but I can take over by using the Kronos.for now he's kept it all working when it counts. I dont know: I guess I understand keeping the drums electronic for volume sake. But youre downplaying the role of backing tracks, and presently you have control of them. (If something goes wrong, or the band is no longer in sync, you can still just hit the volume knob.) Now you want to relinquish that control of backing tracks/sequences, and have drums triggered from your Kronos. I dont knowI would certainly keep the drums in a different machine than one I was playing. I guess it depends how important feel is to the band, how bad the latency would be (I would imagine latency would be increased if you were triggering data from the keyboard AND from drum controllers). On the other hand, that might be a Youtube wed like to see. Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I wouldn't use the Kronos as a sound source for the drums. Pick up another drum module (Roland or Alesis) on eBay and keep it moving. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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