What makes a good melody?

[Michelle ggurl]

Now do you actually mean the balance of "happy vs. melancholy", etc? I would venture you mean contrasts. Because usually the overall tone of the tune dicates the mood.

 

Right, the overall tone dictates the mood ... Or rather, the mood you are going for dictates your choices, yes? And I think art is deeper when the artist acknowledges that there are many ways to color a mood. "happy" doesn't have to mean just a C major triad, for example. it can be tinged with melancholy and then resolve ... It can be majestic or triumphant after expressing hardship ... I actually am quite uncomfortable trying to talk about music this way because I feel like I am saying obvious things but not really SAYING anything, lol. So forgive me if that's exactly how it reads. In that way, I would say the clichés of "tell a story with your solo" and "music is a language" apply. Determine what you want to say and build your musical vocabulary so that you have the right "words" via music.

 

How you build your vocabulary is your musical journey, right? Every musician probably develops their sense of what makes a good melody for a given mood by listening to music they like and taking from that, either consciously or not.

[Bobadohshe]

Some people just have a gift for melody. The new Paul McCartney song that he debuted on the Grammy's is an example. Beautiful melody; could easily be a new jazz standard. He's just a master at that. Taking something simple, arranging around it, and it sticks in your head.

 

God yes. Lennon/McCartney were/are melody masters.

[Jazzwee]

"happy" doesn't have to mean just a C major triad, for example.

 

Ah...but that's probably a very European tradition to think C Major. George Russell will likely say C Lydian.

 

Nowadays American/British music dominates the entire world so maybe we're all mostly attuned to the same sounds. So you would think we'd all judge the same melodies as the best.

 

But after intense work with jazz, I'm starting to develop different tastes myself. I used to think of Beatles tunes as the best melodies ever. Now, I need more spice, like Wayne Shorter melodies.

 

For you guys that studied classical theory, does Wayne Shorter follow the 'classical' rules? His harmonies are certainly unusual (like Naima).

[Michelle ggurl]

Personally, for me, it does seem Lydian means major, especially in my own compositions. but what I gave was what I figured would be a more widely accepted example.

 

Can't answer you last question right now because I havent really thought about it. I'll have to ponder that.

[Tim Wood]

I love Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil", some very memorable melodies. His writing with Weather Report was incredible too. I think of pieces like "Elegant People" from Black Market.

 

Naima though is by Coltrane?

[Bridog6996]

For you guys that studied classical theory, does Wayne Shorter follow the 'classical' rules? His harmonies are certainly unusual (like Naima).

 

The answer is..."Yes and No"

 

Nerdy jazz joke.

 

But that is really the answer. I actually wrote a dissertation on Wayne Shorter's use of harmony for my master's degree. If you've got insomnia and need something to put you to sleep, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[marino]

I actually wrote a dissertation on Wayne Shorter's use of harmony for my master's degree. If you've got insomnia and need something to put you to sleep, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Absolutely.

 

 

[16251]

TWO THOUGHTS.

 

1.)Here's five of my favorite melodies for whatever the reason. I guess melancholy would be the theme of these.

 

The Wedding - Abdullah Ibrahim

In a Silent Way - Joe Zawinul

The Look of Love - Burt Bacharach

Time to Say Goodbye - Andrea Bocelli

Little Sunflower - Freddie Hubbard

A Remark you Made - Joe Zawinul

 

2.) One melody line that always sounds great is a Major 7th when you arpeggio down from say the M7 down to the M7. Using this on a Major 7th or on any other chord always sounds sweet. Why is this?

 

[Jazzwee]

LOL-Naima of course is Coltrane. Sorry. I was getting mixed with all these ethereal melodies over unusual harmonies.

[Jazzwee]

Reminds me of the Reharm thread where some really unusual chords where used underneath the known melodies. It does speak to the strength of the melodies to allow that. And also shows that melodies can cross harmony.

 

As a beginning jazz guy, we're taught to create melodies within or outlining the harmony.

 

As advanced jazz guys, you all strive to break that rule...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

For you guys that studied classical theory, does Wayne Shorter follow the 'classical' rules? His harmonies are certainly unusual (like Naima).

 

The answer is..."Yes and No"

 

Nerdy jazz joke.

 

But that is really the answer. I actually wrote a dissertation on Wayne Shorter's use of harmony for my master's degree. If you've got insomnia and need something to put you to sleep, I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

Cliff notes version?

[Mexico Charlie]

Predictable enough to be satisfying; unpredictable enough to be intriguing.

 

And rhythm is as important as pitch; without rhythm "Joy to the World" goes from being one of the most recognized and appreciated Christmas melodies in history to being a boring descending major scale.

 

Larry.

 

 

Joy to the World was written so that department stores would have a non-offensive sounding song that people would think was religious.

[Zmike]

A melody like Shenandoah gets handed down from voice to ear over generations and in the process, evolves into a gem. Alternatively, Hindemith spends a lot of pages on melody. A good exercise: write a melody in whole notes. try not to repeat intervals. It's more challenging and instructive than it sounds.

[Michelle ggurl]

As a beginning jazz guy, we're taught to create melodies within or outlining the harmony.

 

As advanced jazz guys, you all strive to break that rule...

 

 

I don't think this is entirely accurate ... There are songs I reharm the hell out of, but I'm not striving to break any rule. I just hear other options for tonal coloring underneath a given melody. "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is an example; I have 3 different chord progressions for the "A" section melody in an arrangement I do. And it entirely conforms to "proper" theory, and the concepts of chord tones and passing tones still apply.

[Bobadohshe]

Predictable enough to be satisfying; unpredictable enough to be intriguing.

 

And rhythm is as important as pitch; without rhythm "Joy to the World" goes from being one of the most recognized and appreciated Christmas melodies in history to being a boring descending major scale.

 

Larry.

 

 

Joy to the World was written so that department stores would have a non-offensive sounding song that people would think was religious.

 

I'm sure that's exactly what Mendelssohn had in mind!

[David Loving]

You can hum it. It is new but it sounds like you have heard it before. So far as 'outside' melody is concerned, when's the last time Arnold Schoenberg had a hit song?

[Jazzwee]

This melody is pretty hard to sing...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[David Loving]

"Miles Smiles-Freedom Jazz Dance"? Sorry, I don't hear a single.

[ProfD]

During the Grammys, Paul McCartney sang "My Valentine" which could easily become a Jazz standard:

 

[video:youtube]9HOhVeXsZkM

 

Simple melody. Nice harmony. It's all in there like Prego.

[MuzikTeechur]

Predictable enough to be satisfying; unpredictable enough to be intriguing.

 

And rhythm is as important as pitch; without rhythm "Joy to the World" goes from being one of the most recognized and appreciated Christmas melodies in history to being a boring descending major scale.

 

Larry.

 

 

Joy to the World was written so that department stores would have a non-offensive sounding song that people would think was religious.

 

Right... because there were lots of Department Stores around in 1719. Or later when the music was adapted in 1839 using a motif from Handel (1685 - 1759). Because it sounded good in Department Stores.

 

[David Loving]

"My Valentine" - Now, that's a single. Lordy!

[David Loving]

Predictable enough to be satisfying; unpredictable enough to be intriguing.

 

And rhythm is as important as pitch; without rhythm "Joy to the World" goes from being one of the most recognized and appreciated Christmas melodies in history to being a boring descending major scale.

 

Larry.

 

 

Joy to the World was written so that department stores would have a non-offensive sounding song that people would think was religious.

 

Right... because there were lots of Department Stores around in 1719. Or later when the music was adapted in 1839 using a motif from Handel (1685 - 1759). Because it sounded good in Department Stores.

 

Joy to the World IS religious - read the lyrics

[Jazzwee]

During the Grammys, Paul McCartney sang "My Valentine" which could easily become a Jazz standard:

 

[video:youtube]9HOhVeXsZkM

 

Simple melody. Nice harmony. It's all in the there like Prego.

 

Lovely ProfD!

[Cygnus64]

Tchaikovsky was dared by a friend to see if he could write a melody using only a major scale. This is it. It shows his amazing orchestration skills, because content-wise this is actually pretty questionable:

[video:youtube]

 

 

[iLaw]

... when's the last time Arnold Schoenberg had a hit song?

2008. His violin concerto, played by Hilary Hahn. Won the Grammy that year for Best Instrumental Soloist with Orchestra.

 

Now ask me about his opera, "Moses und Aron" ...

 

Larry.

 

[Cygnus64]

 

Now ask me about his opera, "Moses und Aron" ...

 

Larry.

Larry, does this God-forsaken opera you brought up have any nudity???

[iLaw]

 

Now ask me about his opera, "Moses und Aron" ...

 

Larry.

Larry, does this God-forsaken opera you brought up have any nudity???

Are you kidding? The Burning Bush? Whadaya think?

 

Larry.

 

[Bridog6996]

For you guys that studied classical theory, does Wayne Shorter follow the 'classical' rules? His harmonies are certainly unusual (like Naima).

 

The answer is..."Yes and No"

 

Nerdy jazz joke.

 

But that is really the answer. I actually wrote a dissertation on Wayne Shorter's use of harmony for my master's degree. If you've got insomnia and need something to put you to sleep, I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

Cliff notes version?

 

Essentially, it talks about non-functional harmony, using mainly Shorter's tunes as references, and what it means from an improvising perspective. Non-functional harmony refers to tertian chord structures (as opposed to tone clusters or "accidental" harmony in an atonal piece built using tone rows, for example) that defy most standard analysis. In other words, this harmony doesn't participate in the process of resolving tones leading toward a goal, such as tonic. Even though they can't be described in the sense of Roman numeral analysis, these chords do usually have a purpose, which of course depends solely on context. Shorter's tunes usually combine both functional and non-functional harmony in a very unique way.

 

A more extreme example is his tune "Pinocchio," which is almost entirely non-functional, to the point where you can't even make a convincing argument that it's in any particular key. An analysis under "traditional" rules would be tenuous at best, and wouldn't help you understand the purpose of the chords he chose. Without getting into too many gory details, in "Pinocchio" Shorter basically uses mostly parallel chordal movement to "shadow" the melody, emphasize certain notes, and color them in a specific way, but not in a way that establishes a true harmonic progression.

 

Most of his other tunes, like the aforementioned "Yes or No," are comprised of mostly functional harmony, but with some non-functional elements and interesting twists and turns.

 

[kanker.]

Essentially, it talks about non-functional harmony, using mainly Shorter's tunes as references, and what it means from an improvising perspective. Non-functional harmony refers to tertian chord structures (as opposed to tone clusters or "accidental" harmony in an atonal piece built using tone rows, for example) that defy most standard analysis. In other words, this harmony doesn't participate in the process of resolving tones leading toward a goal, such as tonic. Even though they can't be described in the sense of Roman numeral analysis, these chords do usually have a purpose, which of course depends solely on context. Shorter's tunes usually combine both functional and non-functional harmony in a very unique way.

 

A more extreme example is his tune "Pinocchio," which is almost entirely non-functional, to the point where you can't even make a convincing argument that it's in any particular key. An analysis under "traditional" rules would be tenuous at best, and wouldn't help you understand the purpose of the chords he chose. Without getting into too many gory details, in "Pinocchio" Shorter basically uses mostly parallel chordal movement to "shadow" the melody, emphasize certain notes, and color them in a specific way, but not in a way that establishes a true harmonic progression.

 

Most of his other tunes, like the aforementioned "Yes or No," are comprised of mostly functional harmony, but with some non-functional elements and interesting twists and turns.

I'd love a good night's sleep, but reading that may be even better

[Bridog6996]

Hey thanks!

 

It took me about me about 20 pages or so to say the same thing in the original paper.

 

The next thing to consider is how to approach a tune with little to no logical progression of harmony, like "Pinocchio," from an improvising perspective. Or, to bring it back to the point of this thread, from a melodic perspective.

 

Well, if you're Miles Davis' quintet, you don't, exactly. Interestingly, their approach to soloing on this tune when it was originally recorded was to basically discard the changes and the form.