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What makes a good melody?


Jazzwee

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It's a chicken-or-the-egg question. While there are no "rules" for creating a melody in a vacuum, there are certainly guidelines for creating a strong melody over a pre-existing chord structure, just as there are guidelines for using chords to harmonize a melody. It all depends on which came first.

 

In the end, you can break it down any number of ways, but I think a melody is usually most effective when it's stripped down to its most basic elements. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a great example. It's not hip, but it's so memorable that I don't think anyone on earth could forget it if they tried.

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A good melody is also often about 'INTENT' and how something's played or phrased.

 

Many classical melodies die at the hands of young students who don't understand phrasing.

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Repetition of a motif may or may not yield a melody. It's a bit of a mystery, isn't it?

 

But it's quite possible it seems that someone can hit you with the same phrase with a sledgehammer multiple times a day and you start to recognize and accept it as a good melody. Like TV commercials.

 

I'm wondering if our acceptance of a melody is a learned trait.

 

Jazz people find some phrases melodic while others don't. Do we naturally like melodies in Indian music for example?

 

Who was it that said there is no wrong note in jazz? Was that Aebersold? Make a mistake? Play the mistake over and over and suddenly it's intended.

 

Frankly what Pilc was playing sounded like a mistake. But he repeated and showed his full intent and then I actually start believing that it is melodic. Doesn't sound like Rodgers and Hammerstein though :D

 

My point is that if I'm famous could I make you believe it's a good melody? When you first heard Nefertiti (by Wayne Shorter and Herbie), would an average person (non jazz-fan) think that's a good melody?

 

If I played a motif with such intensity and repetition, would you believe it is melodic?

 

I'm just thinking this is more mysterious than "melodic rules" seem to indicate.

 

 

 

 

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A good melody is also often about 'INTENT' and how something's played or phrased.

 

Many classical melodies die at the hands of young students who don't understand phrasing.

 

THANK YOU. That's exactly what I was saying.

 

Playing the theme to Beethoven's 5th in a Bebop setting at 240bpm would not likely cause the same reaction.

 

Even Ode to Joy. I just bet.

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I'm thinking about the standard melodic rules based on a harmonic progression, particularly in a style like Bebop and the rules on emphasizing chord tones (1-3-5-7) etc. are pretty set.

 

Then comes Miles Davis and he decides to focus on 9/13 over several chords.

 

Or how about a typical device in Jazz where you start substituting harmonies on dominants and the melody generates chromatic elements. Seemingly we back-track on explanations on that, like "oh...he's playing upper-structure harmony".

 

Was it really what the player was thinking or was that just justification in retrospect? Could it be that Chick and Herbie and Wayne and so on were actually hearing something else?

 

 

 

 

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When you hear and see Herbie Hancock playing "upper structure" triad outlines, triad after triad, continuously over changes, then yes it pretty obvious he was thinking (upper structure) triads at one time in his life. These are like the A,B,C's to a Herbie Hancock or a Chick Corea. They mastered that harmony so long ago that they probably hardly ever think much in those terms anymore. Remember, they are not academics or teachers.

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Are you sure J+? Herbie didn't even know what to do when Miles said "don't play the butter notes".

 

I think we can academically study what they came up with so we can copy it. But I can't assume that what they came up with has some theoretical framework.

 

All I can be certain of is that they 'heard it'.

 

I'm going against my earlier beliefs here. I was solidly in that camp Jazz+. I'm just starting to realize there's more mystery to this.

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For me it has a lot to do with phrase shape. Shapeliness. I am not sure I can be more specific than that.

 

When it comes to improvisers, I like to get the sense that the player's melodic ideas have a "long throw," problem-resolution structure and enough of a "memory" to unify the whole solo. Even amongst top flight jazzers, I tend to hear a lot of riffing--tasteful riffing, blazing riffing--but still it is the antithesis of what we're talking about here.

 

In terms of the experience of melody, I go with what a bunch of people have already said--the simultaneous feeling of familiar and new, inevitability and surprise.

 

It is amazing how often melody writers skip the "surpsise" part of the formula ;) In rock, so many writers are aiming at universality and arrive only at commonplace...

 

Then there's a cat like James Mercer of the Shins. His context is classic Britpop generally, and his harmonic toolkit is pretty basic, but there is the constant feeling that his melodies could go absolutely anywhere, without ever seeming to lose that it-has-always-exisited inevitability. I get the same satisfaction from John Scofield in both his compositions and his solos. Paul McCartney...The Zombies! High resolution melodies. it is amazing how often melodies in rock especially are just kind of inherited gestures.

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Sorry just to had add a clip of what I consider a deliriously eventful, expansive pop melody--this Zombie B-side. I love the jumpiness of the melody, but it also shows that it is active chord progressions that really enable surprising melodies (sorry, Bono...)

 

Why a B-side? Well probably chorus is a B-rate, predictable Britpop standard issue. And way too long! But the verse melody slays me. It is a Chris White tune, I believe, not Rod Argent.

[video:youtube]

 

 

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There must be "rules" for melody ... in order for us to recognize when one occurs.

 

There must be rules for melody ... which cause us to love some melodies more than others.

 

I agree with Carlo that story-telling (a primal and universal activity) is a good metaphor to derive melodic "rules" from.

 

Yet once we have arrived at a set of rules, a melody arrives which breaks the rules, and yet captures our hearts beautifully.

 

As this melody causes us to re-write our rules, we can be thankful that beauty is bigger than us. We cannot possess it, and yet in a good performance, in a good piece of writing, we can hope to be possessed by it. This relationship between hope and beauty seems to speak of a universe in balance.

 

 

(With apologies for the bad writing.)

 

 

Jerry

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Not to oversimplify, but I had a wonderful piano teacher in college, who taught me to NEVER play something that I couldn't sing first.

This happened when I was improvising over something, and did some really technical line which sounded impressive (at the time) and she stopped me and asked me to sing what I had just played. I couldn't - well, I could sort of, but not the exact notes. She asked me to listen to the changes as she played them, then sing a simple improvised line over those changes, THEN play that simple line.

At that moment, my playing was transformed from a bunch of technical outlining of chords and scales and musical vomit to actual LINES.

If you listen to George Benson, who is arguably one of the top "melodic" improvisors, he sings along with what he's playing (demonstrating that he conceived of these lines in his mind before playing them on the guitar, rather than just regurgitating some Jamey Aebersold Exercise or tetrachord.

 

Just another view, but this made me step back and examine just what I was playing when I improvised. And it made me more melodic.

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I've heard it said many times that music is a universal language.

Unfortunately learning to master this language is extremely difficult.

 

You can learn the grammar (rules of harmony, rhythm).

You can learn to spell (chord voicing).

You can use those rules to create or copy a dialect (genre).

Unfortunately there is no dictionary to find out what the words mean (melody).

Mainly due to the fact that every single musical phrase is completely meaningless without context.

 

Take the English word "weigh" it can be voiced differently (way, weigh, whey). But it can can have several meanings based on context.

 

It is the same with melodic phrases, rarely can they ever stand alone. And a week line can sound great by changing the rhythm, the chord voicing its played over or even series of notes played before and after the phrase. Its all context.

 

 

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Repetition of a motif may or may not yield a melody. It's a bit of a mystery, isn't it?

 

But it's quite possible it seems that someone can hit you with the same phrase with a sledgehammer multiple times a day and you start to recognize and accept it as a good melody. Like TV commercials.

 

I'm wondering if our acceptance of a melody is a learned trait.

 

My point is that if I'm famous could I make you believe it's a good melody?

 

 

Great point. I recently MD'd a couple of Broadway type revues, and I noticed that it was easy for everyone to remember and sing the melodies from Oklahoma or South Pacific. Wicked and Rent are just as good musically, but they didn't "sing themselves," so to speak, like the old shows. Difference in quality of melody writing, or are we just much more familiar with songs we've been hearing for 40 years? Heck if I know.

 

It's also occurred to me that you or I might, and I stress MIGHT :) be able to write a song that was objectively as good as, say, 'Yesterday,' but it would not be accepted as such because it would lack that cultural resonance that 'Yesterday' has.

 

Thanks for setting up suck an enjoyable conversation.

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I've heard it said many times that music is a universal language.

 

 

Careful there, I was nuked on this one in college. It might be poetic to say that music is the "universal language", but "language" denotes something with which you can communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and action. Music is wonderful for expressing, sharing, evoking, and examining feelings, and in that respect it communicates much that words cannot. However, it is very difficult to order ham and eggs over easy with a side of dry wheat toast using only music (without lyrics).

 

This is not an original thought of my own, this is from the noted musical researcher and philosopher, Bennett Reimer:

 

"Language is, according to Reimer, communication where the person communicating selects a particular message to be transmitted. The message is then encoded into a signal... that transmit the message to someone. The receiver then changes the signal, or decodes the signal back into the message . . . (136). Accordingly, the communicator must begin with a clear idea of what is to be transmitted; she must translate the message into signals that exactly represent her message; and the signals must be decoded in just the right way by the receiver (136). After describing this view Reimer declares that nothing about this applies to the processes of musical creation and response (137)."

 

But we digress.

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Some people just have a gift for melody. The new Paul McCartney song that he debuted on the Grammy's is an example. Beautiful melody; could easily be a new jazz standard. He's just a master at that. Taking something simple, arranging around it, and it sticks in your head.
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It might be poetic to say that music is the "universal language", but "language" denotes something with which you can communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and action.

 

True enough, I was using the metaphor to show that while there are similarities the main problem is exactly that. The lack of "specific thoughts" or in my term exact definitions. That's the part where it becomes art.

 

You can tell a musician play a blues vamp in G. Its a whole different thing then saying play a blues in G that is original and has an inspiring melody.

 

B3-er, very true. Lennon and McCartney both had a gift for simple catchy melodies. I can play almost any Beatles melody on my melodica and anyone older than 16 will usually know it right away. No chords, lyrics yet the melody just sticks in your head.

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Careful there, I was nuked on this one in college. It might be poetic to say that music is the "universal language", but "language" denotes something with which you can communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and action... However, it is very difficult to order ham and eggs over easy with a side of dry wheat toast using only music (without lyrics).

 

LOL - that just made my day. Someone always tells me in Jazz: "you're not using the language. Learn some vocabulary!".

 

Now you just gave me a comeback.

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There must be "rules" for melody ... in order for us to recognize when one occurs.

 

There must be rules for melody ... which cause us to love some melodies more than others.

 

I agree with Carlo that story-telling (a primal and universal activity) is a good metaphor to derive melodic "rules" from.

 

Yet once we have arrived at a set of rules, a melody arrives which breaks the rules, and yet captures our hearts beautifully.

 

As this melody causes us to re-write our rules, we can be thankful that beauty is bigger than us. We cannot possess it, and yet in a good performance, in a good piece of writing, we can hope to be possessed by it. This relationship between hope and beauty seems to speak of a universe in balance.

 

 

(With apologies for the bad writing.)

 

 

Jerry

 

Very good writing!

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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Let me explore a different aspect of the discussion here for a moment.

 

I started this thread thinking of the moment of soloing in jazz where you're supposed to come up with a story for 'x' number of choruses.

 

For some it's a period where you make a solo that communicates melody. In some I hear more harmonic textures rather than melodies. And I don't mean comping chords here. It could be the effect of a fast stream of 16ths. McCoy Tyner for example.

 

For those that play or listen to jazz, are you aware of this? How much is playing melodically part of this? 100%. 10%?

 

Let's face it. The audience cannot accept something as melodic unless you linger on the notes or repeat it. My example earlier, Beethoven's 5th melody would not have the same effect in a bebop context at 240bpm.

 

But lots of jazz doesn't have melodic phrases that linger. Or is it assumed that the audience has such sophisticated ears they can hear the melody anyway?

 

 

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Great point. I recently MD'd a couple of Broadway type revues, and I noticed that it was easy for everyone to remember and sing the melodies from Oklahoma or South Pacific. Wicked and Rent are just as good musically, but they didn't "sing themselves," so to speak, like the old shows. Difference in quality of melody writing, or are we just much more familiar with songs we've been hearing for 40 years? Heck if I know.

 

It's also occurred to me that you or I might, and I stress MIGHT :) be able to write a song that was objectively as good as, say, 'Yesterday,' but it would not be accepted as such because it would lack that cultural resonance that 'Yesterday' has.

 

Thanks for setting up suck an enjoyable conversation.

 

Thanks for appreciating Mike!

 

Now on this issue, I'm trying to explore another side and that is that the audience may have to be receptive to receiving the melody.

 

Bobadoshe said and I agreed that it's not just a matter of the notes. There must be INTENT.

 

But now comes to the why. Could part of it be the setup? The audience is 'expecting' a melody and thus when they expect something familiar, they accept it as melodic.

 

Jazz for example is mostly unfamiliar. But you put a few licks in the middle. Quote the original melody a little and suddenly they react differently.

 

I'm not talking here about the construct of the melodic line itself. But given the same notes, performed by a person in the wrong context, and would that same person get rejected by the audience?

 

Is acceptance tied to such examples as (a) Fame of the performer, (b) Familiarity of the line, © Repetition during performance which results in familiarity?

 

All these comments of mine have some practical effect if I'm trying to create a solo. Unfortunately, in a jazz solo, I don't have time to compose thoughtfully so these choices are made in real time. Tough.

 

 

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BTW a separate issue is the 'timeless' value or popularity of the melody against other melodies.

 

How much of that is cultural vs. something specific in the actual notes or phrasing? How much of that is tied to connecting it to personal experience.

 

Most say that in older age, we listen to the music that we liked as teens. Doesn't that imply that we are attached not to the music itself but what it represents?

 

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Let's face it. The audience cannot accept something as melodic unless you linger on the notes or repeat it.

Well, sometimes a melody can be not hummable or even easy to remember, but it could be so good in creating a suggestive 'ambientation', to leave a permanent impression on the listener anyway.

 

A couple of examples:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUwXFRNTcio

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QbrhC15XiQ

 

I'd say that melody doesn't exists alone... it's part of the whole environment that the artist has to set in order to reach his listener. A good artist creates a credible environment, in which the final receiver can 'soak' with trust. It's very akin to building a credible story for a novel.

 

 

 

 

 

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I think "balance" is the biggest factor to a good melody. That doesnt mean it has to always be harmonious. I share the opinion of others here who say there are guidelines but not necessarily rules. Again, part of balance; for every rule you can probably find an example of an exception that is also effective.

 

EDIT:,and by balance I don't mean there has to be the same duration of one element as its opposite ... I think what I'm striving for is to say there is balance of characteristics to convey an emotional goal. If something is happy, vs melancholy, vs angry, vs wistful, etc. I really wonder how much of that is cultural, ie familiarity with what has come before, and how much of it is an absolute in terms of human neuro-physiology.

 

Tension, release ... Surprise, predictability ... Rhythmic repetition, variation. These are all principles of tension and release (and there are more) and perhaps it really comes down to that. I know that in my own improvising, playing melodically is but one tool -- another is focusing on intervals, another is rhythmic repetition, etc. when I am trying to build melodic ideas I notice that I sing as I improvise ... Like the phrases I build as a result of that are more musical than they would otherwise be. Just FWIW.

 

And Carlo, I definitely agree with what you are saying about melody within the context of the overall music. I've been known to say "context is everything" when explaining my vision to bandmates as we're working through something. :D

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I'd say that melody doesn't exists alone... it's part of the whole environment that the artist has to set in order to reach his listener. A good artist creates a credible environment, in which the final receiver can 'soak' with trust. It's very akin to building a credible story for a novel.

 

 

I think this is very deep and is part of what I'm discovering. The listener has to 'trust' you. And so some sort of set up is necessary.

 

I relate this to some of my haphazard solos where I just play a sequence of all known pattern tricks. But I never stay long enough on one to develop a 'trust' or clarity of expectation.

 

Maybe tbis also explains why space is important. It frames the idea.

 

In the context of jazz where everything played is in "fragments" rather than one continuous song, the challenge is bigger.

 

There's lots of food for thought in some of the discussions here. I think the simple "Tell a Story with Your Solo" is an oversimplification.

 

How to tell the story is simply explained as "build up to a climax" which often relates to intensity or notes played per second rather than building an expectation, musically speaking.

 

I'm thinking here of some thread that binds it all whether it be motif, rhythmic connection, harmonic contrasts/connections...

 

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I really wonder how much of that is cultural, ie familiarity with what has come before, and how much of it is an absolute in terms of human neuro-physiology.

 

That is the question of the day. This may mean we have to fall under the structure of the music we perform since our audience is segmented too based on expectations of what they expect to hear.

 

But those are excellent thoughts. Now do you actually mean the balance of "happy vs. melancholy", etc? I would venture you mean contrasts. Because usually the overall tone of the tune dicates the mood.

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Carlo, those were very interesting examples. Ambience was a good term. I had a feeling of more of a harmonic/rhythmic texture rather than thinking melody.

 

Although I wasn't thinking of the actual notes, the Weather Report melody had a specific phrasing pattern that was what I was recalling.

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So what do you think of this?

 

1: Start on 1, 3 or 5 of the chord (keeping in mind you can start with an suspension or a semitone below, or even a note away within the scale as long as the downbeats are somewhat on 1 3 or 5.

2: End on 1, 3 or 5 of target chord

3: To get from the first note of a chord to the first note of the next chord you have only three ways of moving-- repeated notes, stepwise within the scale, and leaps.

4: The only way to leap is from odd to odd (1 to 3, 1 to 5 )or even to even. Leaps of a 7th (1 to 7 2 to 8 etc) require addition in that they always need to resolve whereas all the others are fine as they are.

5: If you leap from odd to even, or vise versa, the next note must follow the rules again.

 

Those don't seem like the classic guidelines to me. Where did you get those?

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Jazz+, I thought they were very limited guidelines and I don't buy it whatsoever. It's part of long argument I have with this individual which is why I started this thread.

 

First of all, it's very vertical playing. If you're Miles Davis and you use common tones (i.e. extensions) to stretch a melody over several chords, it fails this rule. Second it doesn't speak to alternate harmony that you may be playing against the regular changes. Third as discussed here, melody isn't as obvious as this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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