Doepfer LMK+4

[Jaime Chimuelo]

I heard the models from a couple of years ago had problems.

I really need a decent controller and I grow weary of the Chinese Junkwagons.

Akai is a split only, M Audio KS88's are fine brand new, but there are no more, the Oxygen is a watered down KS88 same keybed.

Don't like Studiologic, but love their keybeds.

This leaves me with the New LMK+4.

 

Has anyone here used one, and really wish there were some in stock to play and check for myself.

 

I actually flew to Austin to check the VAX 3 years ago, but 77 keys is not good for the splits I require.

 

Thanks for any help.

[AnotherScott]

I actually flew to Austin to check the VAX 3 years ago, but 77 keys is not good for the splits I require.

To repeat an idea that just came up in another thread in a different context, one of the nice things about the VAX is the clear surface on the top. Toss a 6 pound Korg Microstation or other small board up there, and you've got plenty of real estate for splits, without even needing a two-tier stand.

[Dana.]

The Oxygen has a brand new action.

[Jim Alfredson]

What do you need in a controller?

 

I've been using the Privia PX3, which has some really great master controller features. Great action, too.

[Tonysounds]

The Doepfer LMK4+ is expensive GARBAGE.

 

Loved the form (nice lightweight compact controller built into its own case? Whats not to like?).

 

Loved the keybed; it was gorgeous to play.

 

Its interface isnt the best, but when hooked up to a computer to program requires no manual, and gives you access to every single function and tweak in one menu page. Excellent. Again, not great for live tweaking, but more than adequate for most circumstances; you have lots of assignable options for live tweaking, a rotary knob, a button or two, the wheels, and a couple foot controllers.

 

I bought #1 (my first LMK4+). It showed up, and started acting squirrelly almost immediately.

 

It was so buggy, I could get it to hang in 40 seconds hooked up to any module. It wasnt just mine either. I bought from Analogue Haven, and I will never give them a penny of my money in the future. When I called with the problem, I get this sage advice: Oh, no, there is nothing wrong with your unit. Hans Zimmer uses the LMK4+ and it works perfectly! Great, can you send Hans over to troubleshoot this one then? Wow, they didnt think that was funny???

 

They, ANALOGUE HAVEN, WERE OF NO HELP, asking me to detail the issues in emails (they are so busy there that phone calls apparently were counter-productive). So I did in my best diplomatic fashion. They forwarded those emails to Wolf or someone at Doepfer. His response was untimely and unhelpful It should not be doing that. No kidding?!!!

 

Finally after enough bitching and the threat of having my credit card company reverse the charge, they sent me another one. It did the same exact thing. Im on the phone with them detailing the problem, and they just wanted to insist something was wrong with me. (Obviously there is something wrong with me, but thats not the issue here!)

 

A friend of mine in Detroit is the guy who recommended I get the Doepfer (he loves his), and he and I met in the afternoon in St. Joe, MI in the early afternoon and set up both our rigs to see if we could troubleshoot the issue. (His rig: LMK4+, Motif classic rack; My rig: LMK4+, Motif Classic rack, and more, but we limited it to the same pieces.) He played my rig, it hung up. He played his rig, it was fine. I played my rig, it hung up. I played his rig, and to his horror, it hung up. He then played his rig, and it hung up. He rebooted his rig, and it was okay.for a few minutes. So we plugged his LMK into my module. And it was still okay. I played it.HANG. He played it.HANG. So we plugged my LMK into his Motif, and I played it.and it hung. We rebooted everything, and used his cables, and now both machines were hanging regardless of what we did. He had some midi info collector and we did velocity checks on our playing,and while I was more heavy handed (I grew up on piano), I wasnt doing anything that was unorthodox or extreme. We tried both controllers using other of my modules. Both controllers would hang.

 

This made 3 LMKs that were getting something they didnt like from me. But we couldnt ascertain what that was. Meanwhile, Analogue Haven could do nothing to help troubleshoot, and wanted a 20% restocking fee. And when Analogue Haven received my initial LMK back, they couldnt get it to stop hanging, and yet they still wanted the restock fee. Well I paid it, but I wont hesitate to tell anyone what a shitty dealer they turned out to be. And since Doepfer couldnt fix the problem, I cant recommend their products to anyone for any purpose.

I would avoid them (Analogue Haven and Doepfer) like the plague.

 

[Tonysounds]

If youre willing to spend $2500 on a Doepfer, why not buy a Kurzweil PC3 or PC3x? I came up on the Roland A80 and A90 controllers (which were fn fantastic), and the Kurzweils will do everything they did and a lot more, and youll have the benefit of a sound engine built in that you can use (or not).

[Al Coda]

I heard the models from a couple of years ago had problems.

...

Don't like Studiologic, but love their keybeds.

This leaves me with the New LMK+4.

 

Has anyone here used one, and really wish there were some in stock to play and check for myself.

 

The keybed probs of the Doepfer were the same the Kurzweils had in the past,- originally caused by these Fatar keybeds built in,- that was TP10MDF.

 

In the new Doepfer masterkeyboards is Fatar TP40GH graded hammer action.

Think of a bit heavier action than the Kurzweil PC3X or PC3K has which is TP40L.

 

Because you know the Studiologic,- that´s TP100 which you also find in the Kurzweil SP4-8 or the Studiologic/Fatar NUMA Nano.

 

The new Fatar actions are far more reliable than the old ones were,- so don´t buy a used Doepfer masterkeyboard,- only a new one which in addition comes w/ physical MIDI AND USB, what the old ones didn´t.

 

The problem is finding a store to check out a Doepfer and I don´t know how good the MIDI programming is.

For me, the LMK4+ is too wide and the wheels aren´t in the position I´d wish ´em to have on a 88 weighted keys board.

I think of buying just only the action,- the Doepfer PK88 w/ physical and USB MIDI, double switch-pedal and CC-pedal connections and combine it w/ a standalone knob/slider unit, this offering add. ft-sw. and CC-ped. connectors.

I don´t need PB and Mod wheels urgently on a weighted action keyboard if there will be a synth action keyboard on top offering these,- and the combo would be connected to my MIDITEMP processor anyway.

If you have/get one of these,- masterkeyboard functions in the keyboards themselves become obsolete and the overall programming is faster and easier.

 

A.C.

 

 

[synthdogg]

Thanks for the warning Tony. I've been really intrigued by the LMK series myself. I'm still looking for a studio keyboard controller and I haven't been happy with the actions of any of the controllers on the market.

The LMK looks perfect, it can be built right into a custom desk (which is what I'm looking for) and people claim to love the action....but it's really hard to gauge what people mean by "fantastic action" when action is such a personal taste.

I love my Nord Stage 2, and it's action is fine for running out and playing a gig....but it's not what I would want to be using as my main controller day in and day out.

 

I still love my Kawai MP-9500 with it's wooden keyboard. It's just a challenge to build around a keyboard of that size. I think it's time to dump the idea of the Doepfer and stick with the Kawai. Thanks for your help.

 

Sorry to Hijack...

[Jaime Chimuelo]

Well Tony you saved me some hard earned skins.

I have to spend the money for tax reasons, so I figured I'd get something good, but I use Kontakt, and Scope DSP for mixing, effects and their Modular, so the KS88 was perfect, but I gig 6 nights a week and the KS88's eventually start triggering 127 velocities, so that model would become synths and B3 splits, then I'd break out a new one and use that for the Rhodes, 220A and Piano work. They were great for live too, Global channel Snapshots, mute all controllers, so I looked at the Oxygen, and it's the same keybed ( Jared confirmed this ) which turned me off as it was less for more.

The Privia looks pretty cool, and I do like Kurzweil but I don't need their sounds. But I must admit since switching from Gigastudio to Kontakt, Scarbees Rhodes and 200A sound different and play worse. In GStudio the sound was solid and 6-8 velocities could be heard. Kontakt versions are nothing like their original even though the man himself says they are exact.

 

So the Privia will be checked out, I heard they had decent Stage Pianos but was unaware of the internal/external splits....

I am so disappointed with the controllers these days. I have tried many starting witht the TX816/KX88 years ago, then the beautiful A90, then the MC3000, but thier weight and lack of live features were always a PITA. The Oberheim was the best actually but it weighs a ton.

I guess I'll just have to go to Guitar Center where the posers come to hang, and check out the Privia. The price and features seem OK.

And AlCoda, I am looking at the MIDI Temp stuff to replace the DAW onstage. Seems like I will be needing to do effect, lighting cues and program changes and DAW's start falling down when MIDI CCs using long throw faders start taking up data space.

 

Thanks Guys....

[Ken Beaumont]

You might want to also checkout the Kawaii MP6. I know a lot of people rave about their actions and it would include a modulation wheel in addition to the 4 independent internal and external zones. It also comes with a pedal that supports half dampening.

 

The only cons I see are the shape, you won't be able to set stuff on it. And the matte finish looks like it would scratch easily with enough road wear. Its twice the price of the CASIO too.

[Dana.]

so I looked at the Oxygen, and it's the same keybed ( Jared confirmed this )

I don't know who Jared is but he's wrong. I've played both the Oxygen and the KS88 and they are NOT the same action.

[Al Coda]

And AlCoda, I am looking at the MIDI Temp stuff to replace the DAW onstage. Seems like I will be needing to do effect, lighting cues and program changes and DAW's start falling down when MIDI CCs using long throw faders start taking up data space.

 

Thanks Guys....

 

B.t.w., Tony´s idea was not bad and I have a similar setup actually, but the other way around by using a Kurzweil PC361 offering all the sliders and wheels and a weighted action midied into the Kurz PC361, both going into the Miditemp.

 

Actually I have a DP w/ flat top as 88 weighted key controller and I want a flat top again if I buy a more compact and lightweight controller, getting both keybeds of lower and top controller as close as possible together.

The Doepfers are the only ones w/ a flat top.

I use 3 keyboards always,- so the lower one will be a Doepfer PK88 w/ Kurzweil PC361 on top and a Solaris to the right near future.

The Doepfer PK88 for the graded hammer action costs EUR 740.- and I buyed the PC361 for 1.099.-.

Music Store Cologne sells ´em for that price up today.

It will make a great combo because the PC361 offers a user selectable Fatar TP40H velocity map in the mastersection.

 

I expected you not wanting the Kurz´s sounds,- but who cares.

The Kurz PC3 is an amazing MIDI controller and there are still usable sounds.

 

A.C.

[Tonysounds]

I am so disappointed with the controllers these days. I have tried many starting witht the TX816/KX88 years ago, then the beautiful A90, then the MC3000, but thier weight and lack of live features were always a PITA. The Oberheim was the best actually but it weighs a ton. ..... I am looking at the MIDI Temp stuff to replace the DAW onstage. Seems like I will be needing to do effect, lighting cues and program changes and DAW's start falling down when MIDI CCs using long throw faders start taking up data space.

 

Thanks Guys....

 

Again, this a great reason to check out the Kurzweil stuff (even if you dont like their sounds.after all, the VAX77 doesnt make sounds of its own either, so just dont use them; but if something happens, guess what, you have some perfectly usable sounds right there just in case). I dont think the Privia has quite the extensive controller functionality of the PC3series Kurzweil stuff,

which will do 16 zones!

 

[Al Coda]

You might want to also checkout the Kawaii MP6. I know a lot of people rave about their actions and it would include a modulation wheel in addition to the 4 independent internal and external zones. It also comes with a pedal that supports half dampening.

 

That´s also a solution, the MP6 action is great, but I know what Jaime does and I fear, he just only wants more keys for his splits and a weighted action,- no internal sounds.

In opposite to the Kurz, the MP6 is limited to 4 zones, eventually not enough for his purpose incl. FX and lightning cues.

 

The only cons I see are the shape, you won't be able to set stuff on it.

 

That was the dealbreaker for me !

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

As long as you're open to something that has sounds even if you don't intend to use them, PX3 is a nice controller, a lot for the price, and light weight. I also agree that the Kawai MP6 is a nice step up, but getting up there in weight. Some other possibilities that are at least a bit lighter could be Yamaha CP33, Yamaha MOX8, Kurzweil SP4-8

[Al Coda]

the extensive controller functionality of the PC3series Kurzweil stuff,

which will do 16 zones!

 

That´s why I pulled the trigger for a Kurz when they became cheap.

The PC361 is the bang for the buck paired w/ another 88 weighted keys action.

The PC361 /Doepfer PK88 combo is EUR 100.- less than a new PC3K6 alone (EUR 1.939.- @Thomann) !

Both gives you a graded hammer action and a good synth action,- so more keys for splits/layers available, all realized in the Kurz MIDI engine by programming on machine only.

I don´t need the 128MB flash RAM of the PC3K models, it loads very slow anyway, so the cheap PC361 was the way to go.

 

A.C.

[orangefunk]

I have no idea why Roland are not offering the RD700GX action in a controller... maybe the market for controllers is not there anymore...

 

I am playing the Kronos 61 from my GX and its pure heaven.... no RH3 for me.

[Jaime Chimuelo]

so I looked at the Oxygen, and it's the same keybed ( Jared confirmed this )

I don't know who Jared is but he's wrong. I've played both the Oxygen and the KS88 and they are NOT the same action.

 

Jared is the MIDI Man/M Audio rep and has no reason to steer me wrong as I bought bulk KS88's as a direct dealer. I love them, even though they are disposable junkwagons.

 

I played all sorts of controllers today and was going to get the Oxygen 88 as I love the way you use Global Channels, Mute all Controllers, Snapshots and group only loads, A/B/C.

 

Played the Kawai and it was beautiful. Kurzweil has the most in depth MIDI, and the Piano is decent too.

Amazingly I found B Stock Privia 3X for 600 USD shipped free from SoCal with the warranty. Loved the action as it's very controllable, not fully weighted which I have at home if I need one. I just need a lightweight MIDI controller w/ 4 x zones.

I can change presets with the Foot Controllers.

The Privia wins for the best bang for the buck.

I only use Piano, Rhodes and Wurly when I do the Classic Tributes, otherwise we do lots of synth/ dance since I prefer young trim over the greys..

 

Thanks for the help, and FWIW I think this place is great as we are all a bunch of live cats, I can barely read more than a few paragraphs in most forums....

 

 

PeaceOut......

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Groovy. You'll dig the Privia. It can be a bit confusing to learn how to set it up at first. If you have any issues, give me or Mike Martin a shout here on the board.

 

[Ashville.Guru]

I just need a lightweight MIDI controller w/ 4 x zones.

Jaime, just wanted to point out - since you've mentioned that you're using the controller with a DAW (laptop?), then you really don't need harware zones. You can actually set up *ANY* number of zones - at any split point - through software. This would make a lot of other controllers suitable for your needs. Although it's not too difficult, if you are uncomfortable with software and want to stick to a known approach, the PX-3 is a great choice.

 

(Apologies for sounding like a broken record on this one, guys... )

 

And AlCoda, I am looking at the MIDI Temp stuff to replace the DAW onstage. Seems like I will be needing to do effect, lighting cues and program changes and DAW's start falling down when MIDI CCs using long throw faders start taking up data space.

Jaime, I couldn't understand this - especially the last sentance. Do you mean your DAW crashes when it receives input from a fader that sends MIDI CC signal? And how will the MIDI Temp stuff help replace the DAW?

[Jaime Chimuelo]

I have Hardware, Analog Hardware, Scope DSP and Kontakt.

I have used Zones via hardware because I want to make sure if the software stumbles ( USB powered )I am still able to resort to all hardware, but I have never had a crash in all of these years because I am a believer in low powered situations. DSP cards, now a DSP rack takes the stress off of the CPU. CPU is better for audio/MIDI and sample playback. These are my reasons.

The fact that the Privia has decent sounds is just another Bonus and back up.

I was speaking of highly automated long throw faders from MAC consoles and other lighting automation devices, even cheap little Merlins need fades and the amount of automation data is much higher than MIDI for DAW automation. Most DAWs I have used for doing everything choke and gag causing not the lighting, but the MIDI notes sent to Kontakt, Scope or hardware to drop out.

While I cannot proove this by monitoring on screen, I isolate the various scenes, and tracks and can troubleshoot.

 

I can use my ancient QX-1 I bought in 1984 w/ it's 8 x ports and it will not falter, even during a power outtage the samplers at that time and synths had to reboot, but the Oberheim DMX and 360 Bass Systems and QX-1 kept playing.

I retired it last year finally just because after 27 years it is becoming senile from caps leaking, etc.

So the MIDI Temp stuff is looking much better.

In all honesty Reaper is the most stable playback host I have ever used. I have gone through Opcode, PTools, Cubase ( stopped upgrading at SX2 ) and now Reaper. But even Reaper has trouble when I have 6 x Instrument Banks of Kontakt + lighting cues.

 

My favorite gigs are where I just play everything live instead of being synced up to DAW's and IEM's.

We even see the instability of the DAW when using the visual Monome as a click. It has 16 LED's that are the subdivisions and act like an old Metronome with the blinking Red lights we used for practicing in the dark.

For the typical ritardandos I go to double time in Reaper, just like a drummer will do as the tempo slows down, more subdivisions, etc. Even then you see the Monome getting the jitters slightly as it scans left to right sequentially lighting the LED's. Drummers I work with refuse to listen to a click in their IEMs and believe it or not there are still dinosaurs using wedges where you can hear the click track during a song. Truly lame IMO.

 

So while these DAWs are designed well, until they have their own OS they will never be the one stop shop for me.

RISC processors and custom OS's are much more prefferable.

 

BTW, I am finally going to get the desktop replacement X79 laptop from ADK Pro, or ORION PC.

I use 4U ATX racked DAW's, and 28U worth of hardware for the big automated gigs.

 

I envision Solaris, Privia, the XITE-1 and a laptop with the SE-1X all in a small SKB Studio rig. Heaven at last.

[Ashville.Guru]

Thanks for the clarification - makes perfect sense .

[Jaime Chimuelo]

Well the Privia is insanely light and the Piano and 1st EPiano sounds are quite good. Action is very responsive it's external MIDI resolution is much better than the KS88's.

I can do pretty much what I want as far as MIDI COntroller needs, but will get the Korg NanoPad 2 as it sits perfectly on the unit.

This was the best 600 bucks I spent in a while.

Even if the action craps out after 2 years, I plan on getting the 2 year warranty extension as the original owner only had the unit for a few weeks.

Thanks for the tip as I never dreamed that a Casio would be so robust and lightweight and dirtcheap.

 

 

[Jaime Chimuelo]

I found the perfect combination since the Privia PX3 is a decent 4 x zone controller with plenty of presets. But in the dark this thing is a PITA and the buttons are old fashioned and cheap so they will wear out the way I beat things up.

So I got this cool little MIDI Prgm Chng unit that will just control the presets on the Privia, which will change all othe devices for me.

Sometimes less is more....

 

http://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=PCkpad

 

 

[Al Coda]

http://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=PCkpad

 

 

I´d wish these guys weren´t out of biz since 2008 ...

http://www.ees-musik.de/html_d/produkte_procon.html

 

100 presets for 16 MIDI channels, 50 presets for all kind of MIDI commands, MIDI Prg.-CH. and Bank-Chg., 10 global presets, transposer, octaver, mirroring the keyboard, channel converter and split.

 

Now ebay only ...

 

A.C.

[Jaime Chimuelo]

I tried ebay.de and no luck.

I'd love one of those.

But this is such a simple device I see it being quite stable.

If you fond one on ebay send the link please.

I can afford a chance on something so compact and reasonably priced...

 

Danke AC

[Al Coda]

I tried ebay.de and no luck.

I'd love one of those.

But this is such a simple device I see it being quite stable.

If you fond one on ebay send the link please.

I can afford a chance on something so compact and reasonably priced...

 

Danke AC

 

O.k.,- I look for EES & Miditemp all the time because I want spares.

Patience is the only way, lost the auction for a spare PMM88E 2 days ago.

There are these insane guys who don´t care on price for used gear and using bid-o-matic.

 

A.C.

[Jaime Chimuelo]

In the US ebay site, I always place my highest amount I am willing to pay, and usually get someone to beat me, but as suspected there's an email with a second chance offer because the seller has a friend who will bid higher to keep the action going. Then bail out. It's quite common here, but on really wanted items that are rare like the Oberheim MC3000d desktop controller they go for pretty high.

I can wait for a week so if you see the handheld unti let me know, thanks again chief.