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VAX77 - Mac Mini - Mainstage


Brad Kaenel

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Has anyone here had experience with the different actions available? There are 3 now Ive read. But focusing on the 2 that have been available, regular and hard, what are your thoughts on the 2 comparing piano/organ playing?

 

It would be great to be able to try them both, but I dont think thats an option right now.

 

See my post above. In general, I think the Ultra Heavy is perfect, while I thought Heavy was a bit too light. If you do any significant amount of piano playing, then Ultra Heavy is the way to go. If you split fairly evenly between piano and organ/synth, I would still prefer Ultra Heavy- IMHO it is still quite fast enough for organ/synth playing. If you are playing primarily organ/synth, then Heavy would be just fine. To me, Regular is just too light overall. YMMV, of course.

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You've touched on one of the issues I had with the VAX. It seems to me that you really need to be driving a software piano, where you can customize the velocity response on the receiving side. If you use the VAX to drive a piano that resides in other hardware, where then neither side is offering a lot of customization, I think there's likely to be no way to get a really satisfactory velocity mapping.

Point taken, and that is one of the reasons Pianoteq appeals to me- the velocity mapping within the software can be fine-tuned to the nth degree, and between that and the High Resolution Velocity capabilities of both, not to mention improvements in general with Pianoteq 4, I am extremely pleased with my virtual piano setup.

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I have experience with both the heavy and the ultra-heavy as well. I originally ordered the ultra-heavy and ended up exchanging it for the heavy. I really liked the ultra-heavy and agree that if you are using it primarily for piano it's the way to go. Unfortunately, my wrists (especially my left one) did not get along well with the ultra-heavy. VAX uses a constant tension spring mechanism. Playing the down-weight did not bother me so much, in fact it was still remarkably quick for organ and synth considering the weighting, but when holding chords I could just "feel" the up-tension and it fatigued my wrists/fingers. I am a rather "light" touch player to begin with so this, combined with my aging hands, led me exchange the ultra-heavy for the heavy. The heavy is working fine for me for all types of sounds (though the ultra was really nice and solid for piano). The ultra is 110 "grams of weight" compared to 65 for the heavy, so it is significantly heavier - though I don't recall it "feeling" as much heavier as the numbers would indicate.

 

On the ultra-heavy I found that I either needed to use the "light" VAX setting or boost the velocity curves on the software. I had a difficult time getting the VAX to 127. With the heavy I leave the VAX at default (medium) and on most software stick with the standard linear curve. So it seems to suit my playing style much better. Though as Another Scott suggests, I also would welcome a wider variety of velocity settings on the VAX.

 

I should also mention that the folks at VAX were incredible with regards to customer service - never experienced any better. I did not make up my mind about exchanging the weighting until after the initial 14 day trial period - not one hesitation from VAX, and no additional cost to me (not even shipping).

 

 

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+1 on the heavy action. I just added a VAX77 to my rig and might just be able to do without my SK2. I've found that the heavy is the first "compromise" keybed I have ever played that really works for it all. If I were purely a pianist, and not a keyboardist, the ultra heavy might be my preference. The nice thing about the heavy is that it is not tiring. With the shallow trigger mode the keyboard really works well for organ. In a word, the keyboard is fast.
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I have experience on the "heavy" and "ultra heavy".

I am able to play piano on either of them comfortably, but I need to recalibrate the velocity curves within Ivory/Kontakt/Pianoteq to accomodate the difference, most especially at lower velocities.

You've touched on one of the issues I had with the VAX. There seemed to be more velocity gradations than I'm accustomed to from other piano actions, and that's a good thing... except that the gradations didn't quite correspond to what I wanted to hear out of the hardware-based piano sounds I was driving (I tried a Nord Stage 2 and a Yamaha MOX, if I remember correctly). I believe there is a real limitation in the VAX in that its own velocity scaling options are so limited. It seems to me that you really need to be driving a software piano, where you can customize the velocity response on the receiving side. If you use the VAX to drive a piano that resides in other hardware, where then neither side is offering a lot of customization, I think there's likely to be no way to get a really satisfactory velocity mapping.

An extra hoop to jump through, but the Midi Solutions velocity mapper might be just the ticket for this. In fact, I could see grabbing one. Sometimes if I need to be really quick on and off stage, I will just throw my Nord Electro on top of the VAX and not use any software instruments. I could see customizing the curve via the M.S. box. Not high on my list right this second, but a thought......

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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Where r u guys running the sustain pedal from, or do you have to set that up within the Vax?

 

And, does anyone know what the weight is of the ultra? Cannot find that on their site.

 

By the way, thanks for the all of the great posts..you guys are great!

I have to mention regarding the weighted thing, I was fortunate enough to play a Steiner last week, bn, 160,000 tag on it, and it was much lighter and easier to play than my Yam.

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The sustain pedal plugs into the VAX, and there are set up options for calibration, polarity, and whether or not you want it to act as an on/off, 3 zone (on/off/half) or continuous pedal. This last part assumes your pedal supports that.

Do you mean the total weight of the keyboard, or the action? If the former, I don't think the ultra is any heavier than the heavy, and if so, not by much. If the latter, the

it is 105 grams vs. 65.

 

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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The way you are all going on about it, it must be a great board to play.

I asked earlier about how it likes sound modules for the simple reason, say u get a call for a quik gig, dont feel like bringing the mini, or the Rec, want to simply throw a small module in the car...which also leads me to the Musebox..you know, the module we've heard about for 3 years but has yet to make an appearance.

They're at 899 I think on SW site, still have no clue where they got the samples from. But, since it may be using the same architecture as the Rec, shouldnt it be also comp w/the Vax? Possibly not an answer available for that one, but I will look around IR's site. Thanks again.

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Beethree and Marzzz, I'm pretty sure I was reading you two post about your VAXs before I got mine, but when I got mine there was definitely no Ultra Heavy option. I'm just curious, did you both get new keyboards since? How is it that you both managed to get Ultra Heavy?

 

I never had the opportunity to get this Ultra Heavy version. I really should forget about it since I do like my VAX and as you say, it "plays" heavier than it is...it's just that I am primarily playing piano and Rhodes and would have certainly chosen the heaviest action available. Ah well!

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the Midi Solutions velocity mapper might be just the ticket for this.

Great idea! If you do it, I'd be really curious to hear how well you got it to work with your Nord, and how easy or difficult it was to come up with a curve you were satisfied with.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Beethree and Marzzz, I'm pretty sure I was reading you two post about your VAXs before I got mine, but when I got mine there was definitely no Ultra Heavy option. I'm just curious, did you both get new keyboards since? How is it that you both managed to get Ultra Heavy?

 

I never had the opportunity to get this Ultra Heavy version. I really should forget about it since I do like my VAX and as you say, it "plays" heavier than it is...it's just that I am primarily playing piano and Rhodes and would have certainly chosen the heaviest action available. Ah well!

 

Is the heavy on the light side? Sounds silly, but you do understand me...

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the Midi Solutions velocity mapper might be just the ticket for this.

Great idea! If you do it, I'd be really curious to hear how well you got it to work with your Nord, and how easy or difficult it was to come up with a curve you were satisfied with.

 

I will likely do this.....but I have my hands and budget full getting my Mac mini rig together. Actually, that is more or less a cash neutral project, since the proceeds from my Receptor are paying for the mini. Hmmmmm.....may just go check eBay for a used one right now.

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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Beethree and Marzzz, I'm pretty sure I was reading you two post about your VAXs before I got mine, but when I got mine there was definitely no Ultra Heavy option. I'm just curious, did you both get new keyboards since? How is it that you both managed to get Ultra Heavy?

 

I never had the opportunity to get this Ultra Heavy version. I really should forget about it since I do like my VAX and as you say, it "plays" heavier than it is...it's just that I am primarily playing piano and Rhodes and would have certainly chosen the heaviest action available. Ah well!

 

Is the heavy on the light side? Sounds silly, but you do understand me...

 

Kind of.....but like I said, it plays heavier than it feels.....hard to explain.

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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I guess this is where it all gets subjective! While playing the Heavy action, I always felt "I wish it was just a bit heavier" and the Ultra Heavy solved that for me. I am also pretty big on using polyaftertouch, so the "weight" of the keys gives me more control- same reason I have always liked the polyAT response on the CS-80 and Kurzweil MIDIBoard, it felt like there was something to push against, while polyAT keyboards with synth keys (Ensoniq, for example) just didn't feel right.

 

Ultra Heavy plays lighter than it feels.....hard to explain.

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Ok, I have 1 more question if you dont mind...

If you could, notice I said could...compare each of the Vax actions to a current commercial keyboard/DP, what would you you choose.. Vax regular/heavy/and ultra heavy?

In general..

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Ok, I have 1 more question if you dont mind...

If you could, notice I said could...compare each of the Vax actions to a current commercial keyboard/DP, what would you you choose.. Vax regular/heavy/and ultra heavy?

In general..

I haven't had the opportunity to try Regular or Ultra but I can say that I've never played a digital piano action that I'd choose over VAX77 Heavy.

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Those of you in the know I humbly request your guidance.

 

The Mac Mini comes in 3 flavors basically (best I can tell). I am considering the headless Mac Mini option (using an iPad 2) and am considering the Mac Mini Server for $999. It has the Quad-Core i7, 4GB RAM, and 2 500GB 7200rpm drives on board. That seems like this would do the trick nicely for hosting VSTs, DAWs, acting as a photo/video studio, and getting drug around for gigging.

 

In comparing the 3 models, I'm seeing Dual-Core i5's on the other models. I'd like to hear what you guys think about the performance difference I should expect among these processors. I realize I can upgrade memory and drive(s) later (OWC?). But I want to make sure I grab the right processor for the job. Thoughts and comments appreciated.

Hardware:
Yamaha
: MODX7 | Korg: Kronos 88, Wavestate | ASM: Hydrasynth Deluxe | Roland: Jupiter-Xm, Cloud Pro, TD-9K V-Drums | Alesis: StrikePad Pro|
Behringer: Crave, Poly D, XR-18, RX1602 | CPS: SpaceStation SSv2 | 
Controllers: ROLI RISE 49 | Arturia KeyLab Essentials 88, KeyLab 61, MiniLab | M-Audio KeyStation 88 & 49 | Akai EWI USB |
Novation LaunchPad Mini, |
Guitars & Such: Line 6 Variax, Helix LT, POD X3 Live, Martin Acoustic, DG Strat Copy, LP Sunburst Copy, Natural Tele Copy|
Squier Precision 5-String Bass | Mandolin | Banjo | Ukulele

Software:
Recording
: MacBook Pro | Mac Mini | Logic Pro X | Mainstage | Cubase Pro 12 | Ableton Live 11 | Monitors: M-Audio BX8 | Presonus Eris 3.5BT Monitors | Slate Digital VSX Headphones & ML-1 Mic | Behringer XR-18 & RX1602 Mixers | Beyerdynamics DT-770 & DT-240
Arturia: V-Collection 9 | Native Instruments: Komplete 1 Standard | Spectrasonics: Omnisphere 2, Keyscape, Trilian | Korg: Legacy Collection 4 | Roland: Cloud Pro | GForce: Most all of their plugins | u-he: Diva, Hive 2, Repro, Zebra Legacy | AAS: Most of their VSTs |
IK Multimedia: SampleTank 4 Max, Sonik Synth, MODO Drums & Bass | Cherry Audio: Most of their VSTs |

 

 

 

 

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I'd like to hear what you guys think about the performance difference I should expect among these processors.

 

Which DAW and VSTs (and how many) will you be running?

Would you be mounting it in a rack that will get tossed around?

Favorite Gear:Vintage Vibe 73 w/MIDI, Microkorg, ipad2 with lotsa apps, VB3, Rhodes 88, Roland VK8, Fantom XR, Brainspawn Forte
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Ok, I have 1 more question if you dont mind...

If you could, notice I said could...compare each of the Vax actions to a current commercial keyboard/DP, what would you you choose.. Vax regular/heavy/and ultra heavy?

In general..

I haven't had the opportunity to try Regular or Ultra but I can say that I've never played a digital piano action that I'd choose over VAX77 Heavy.

 

Wow, thanks for the reply.

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Those of you in the know I humbly request your guidance.

 

The Mac Mini comes in 3 flavors basically (best I can tell). I am considering the headless Mac Mini option (using an iPad 2) and am considering the Mac Mini Server for $999. It has the Quad-Core i7, 4GB RAM, and 2 500GB 7200rpm drives on board. That seems like this would do the trick nicely for hosting VSTs, DAWs, acting as a photo/video studio, and getting drug around for gigging.

 

In comparing the 3 models, I'm seeing Dual-Core i5's on the other models. I'd like to hear what you guys think about the performance difference I should expect among these processors. I realize I can upgrade memory and drive(s) later (OWC?). But I want to make sure I grab the right processor for the job. Thoughts and comments appreciated.

 

I purchased the server version, and sent it right out to OWC to have both drives replaced with SSD's and the RAM maxed out. Fed Ex came today, so it is sitting at home waiting for me to open. Sadly, I will not be there until late this evening.

I went for the server, even though it is possible to put 2 drives in the regular if you purchase a cable online, due to the extra horsepower of the processor. I think the regular with the i7 would do fine, but I want to make this as future proof as I can. It is replacing my Receptor, which I got many good years out of.

I had OWC do the work, which is a flat rate of $99 dollars to have whatever you purchase added, since time is short for me, and replacing the hard drives on a mini is apparently more involved than on a macbook. I am sure that even with the stock drives, the server version would perform well for you. I would add RAM to the stock configuration, however, especially if you want to use large sample sets. If you are using it as a DAW as well, you might be best off with a SSD as your system drive, and a large 7200RPM conventional drive for your audio.

I will be reporting back here on performance over the weekend!!!!

If I am readily able to copy over my plugins and Mainstage patches from my Macbook in time, I may just use this Saturday night at a gig. Feeling brave.

 

 

 

 

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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I'd like to hear what you guys think about the performance difference I should expect among these processors.

 

Would you be mounting it in a rack that will get tossed around?

 

I am pondering the same thing for my setup.

I plan on using it both with a one keyboard setup, and with a 2 keyboard setup. In the latter case, it will probably need to be set aside, but in the former, it can go right on my board.

 

Right now, I am thinking this:

Mac Mini and RME Fireface 400 mounted to a little wooden panel that I conveniently found in my basement that is the exact right size!!!!

These are wired together on the panel, and placed in a Pelican Storm IM2700 case, with the foam cut out to fit them perfectly.

Also in that case go a 7 inch MIMO USB monitor, and a trackpad, to only be set up when needed (I may change my tune on the monitor - nice to have.)

Also in the Pelican case - a cutout spot for my Voce V5, and a larger cutout for miscellaneous cords. Anything that doesn't fit goes inside my regular pedalboard case, which still has some room.

 

The little panel and the Voce get velcroed either to the top of my VAX, for a one board rig, or the little board goes on a rack tray in a small rack next to me if I have the 2nd board on top.

(Or maybe on top of the upper board, if stable enough.)

 

Will post a couple of pix once I have it all happening. My Receptor is sold, so it's too late to stop now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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I'd like to hear what you guys think about the performance difference I should expect among these processors.

 

Which DAW and VSTs (and how many) will you be running?

Would you be mounting it in a rack that will get tossed around?

 

I am presently running Cubase 5 but planning on upgrading to 6 soon. I am seriously considering Logic and Ableton as well. I have Omnisphere, SampleTank 2XL, Sonik Synth 2, Oddity, M-Tron, VB3, Lounge Lizard, Ultra Analog, String Studio, OP-X Pro, MiniMonsta, Messiah, ME80, and many more I know I'm forgetting without being in front of my studio PC. I plan at some point to add the rest of the Spectrasonics stuff, possibly Komplete 8, Arturia V Collection, the u-he stuff, and more as they appear I'm sure. I can usually work within an eight track limit with my current workflow. I plan to install Cubase on the Mac and hope I don't have any conversion issues with all my library of recordings I've done on the PC version.

 

If I also understand what I'm reading about MainStage, it would act as a VST host of sorts and allow me to stack, split and layer various VST's and store them for live or studio performances. Is this correct? I understand that it acts sort of like the Set List feature in Kronos.

 

Regarding live playing, I'd like to experiment with MainStage and see where that leads me using it live. I have a M3-73 and a Motif ES6 so I do have my live gig working fine without adding a PC. I'm just considering how cool it would be to take my VST's out live and MIDI'd to the boards. I'd like to use my iPad2 as a monitor/touch interface but will consider something like a Mimo if the iPad turns out to be a PITA to work with.

 

On a side note, I am also considering a Canon EOS Rebel T3i to do both photography and dabbling in Videography as well. I'd like to also use the Mac Mini as a studio for this too. For offline storage of both music, photos, and video I plan to add a USB External Drive. I do plan to send it to OWC at some point and maybe have my drives upgraded from 2 500GB 7200rpms. I like the SSD possibilities and I'm sure samples would load in much faster - not withstanding fewer moving parts - but I'd rather wait until prices fall enough that I can get GBs of SSD's instaed of MB's for much less.

 

Hope this provides more information ... Thanks again to everyone.

Hardware:
Yamaha
: MODX7 | Korg: Kronos 88, Wavestate | ASM: Hydrasynth Deluxe | Roland: Jupiter-Xm, Cloud Pro, TD-9K V-Drums | Alesis: StrikePad Pro|
Behringer: Crave, Poly D, XR-18, RX1602 | CPS: SpaceStation SSv2 | 
Controllers: ROLI RISE 49 | Arturia KeyLab Essentials 88, KeyLab 61, MiniLab | M-Audio KeyStation 88 & 49 | Akai EWI USB |
Novation LaunchPad Mini, |
Guitars & Such: Line 6 Variax, Helix LT, POD X3 Live, Martin Acoustic, DG Strat Copy, LP Sunburst Copy, Natural Tele Copy|
Squier Precision 5-String Bass | Mandolin | Banjo | Ukulele

Software:
Recording
: MacBook Pro | Mac Mini | Logic Pro X | Mainstage | Cubase Pro 12 | Ableton Live 11 | Monitors: M-Audio BX8 | Presonus Eris 3.5BT Monitors | Slate Digital VSX Headphones & ML-1 Mic | Behringer XR-18 & RX1602 Mixers | Beyerdynamics DT-770 & DT-240
Arturia: V-Collection 9 | Native Instruments: Komplete 1 Standard | Spectrasonics: Omnisphere 2, Keyscape, Trilian | Korg: Legacy Collection 4 | Roland: Cloud Pro | GForce: Most all of their plugins | u-he: Diva, Hive 2, Repro, Zebra Legacy | AAS: Most of their VSTs |
IK Multimedia: SampleTank 4 Max, Sonik Synth, MODO Drums & Bass | Cherry Audio: Most of their VSTs |

 

 

 

 

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Mini server back from OWC - "Regular" Lion (as opposed to server version) installed - Mainstage installed - Sample libraries copied over to 2nd SSD. This afternoon I will authorize my primary live plugins (Kontakt, Ivory, Pianoteq,VB3, Omnisphere, VKFX, Amplitube,M-Tron Pro) , copy over my Mainstage patches/concerts from my laptop, bust out the little USB monitor, and hopefully be all systems go for tomorrow night.

 

Then next week, I will set up the less essential plugins and figure out the optimal way to mount and case everything.

 

Here's a question:

If I have no keyboard/monitor/mouse hooked up, I will need to shut down via the power button. Is this a bad thing?

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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Hmmmmmmmmm........

May have to bust out the peripherals for tear down.

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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At the very least, it will increase your startup times because the OS will check the disk at startup, seeing that it wasn't shut down properly.

 

Ideally, you should find a way to shut it down properly.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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And the survey says.......Midi to Applescript......found 2 possible ways to trigger this.

 

Researching.....but probably can't work it out until next week.

In the meantime, will use mini monitor and trackpad, or iPad to shut it down.

------------------

Edit: Midipipe to Applescript seems pretty easy - might just crank it out today afterall.

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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Here's a question:

If I have no keyboard/monitor/mouse hooked up, I will need to shut down via the power button. Is this a bad thing?

How about using a FrontRow Remote? (Note: haven't tested this)

 

Edit: Maybe not, seems not to have been updated for a while because the FAQ says it doesn't work with Snow Leopard. I'll keep looking. It would be trivial to write an AppleScript that would ignore application responses and just shutdown, but the question is how to execute that with no mouse or keyboard. We need a way to map a script to the power button.

 

Edit 2: But the obvious idea is to have some small helper application running that can initiate the shutdown process after receiving a particular MIDI message (that you'd obviously not use for anything else).

 

Edit 3: Okay I think this can be done with MidiPipe. I'll try later today if I have a moment.

 

Edit 4: I just read your edit above mine and you already found that...I'm not quite on the ball it seems!

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If I have no keyboard/monitor/mouse hooked up, I will need to shut down via the power button. Is this a bad thing?

 

Do you have an ipad, ipod, android, or anything that has wifi and VLC that you could use to remote in and shut it down? OSX has a built in VLC server that you can connect to from anything that will run VLC, which is just about anything nowadays. You'd just have to have the macmini setup to be a wifi access point upon boot.

 

Or, you might be able to reliably shut it down naturally by hitting the power button, just don't hold it in too long thus forcing the quick poweroff.

Favorite Gear:Vintage Vibe 73 w/MIDI, Microkorg, ipad2 with lotsa apps, VB3, Rhodes 88, Roland VK8, Fantom XR, Brainspawn Forte
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