VAX77 - Mac Mini - Mainstage

[midinut]

I hate you guys ... lol

 

Just when I thought the gas had subsided ... you guys go and open up a can of worms like this! Sheesh.

 

I also very much appreciate this thread and the thoughts and ideas it has swirling around in my head.

 

Since I have no VAX77 I think I would sub it for a Kronos 61 (same price and would be a great backup should the Mini ever fail), up the MIMO to their 10" model (cause I'm getting old and blind), max out the Mini Mac on memory & drives (so I can load Cubase, my Spectrasonics stuff, and let's throw in Komplete 8 Ultimate (with its own drive)... and gentlemen I think we're about done. Of course I'll need to ask for another lifetime to explore all the possibilities and potential.

 

I really do hate you guys sometimes... jk

 

 

[Tuggy]

I wonder if you can see the patch names on a Novation SL MK II too. Since I cannot afford a VA77, seeing that patch names and swtiching them from SL would be great.

[AnotherScott]

check out my post about HALion Sonic, a VST plug-in that's, for all intents and purposes, a software Motif XS.

Does it have a comparable "overblown" (velocity) flute?

[AnotherScott]

Cool rig.

 

Can the monitor also lay flat, on the VAX? Or do you have to use it prop it up on its stand?

 

I'd prefer to use an iPad as a screen, if it would work, since it's 1024 x 768 and functions with touch, and because it could also be used for other things (like set lists, lyrics, chord charts, or even a synth or other instrument) when not functioning as an emergency window into mainstage. The downside is, of course, it's more than double the price... but not if you happen to already own one. ;-)

[AnotherScott]

Since I have no VAX77 I think I would sub it for a Kronos 61 (same price and would be a great backup should the Mini ever fail)

The funny thing is, if there is a power glitch and you have to reboot, the Mini will be up and running far more quickly than the Kronos!

 

The VAX does have the advantages of 76 keys vs 61 and polyphonic aftertouch. It's also convenient that it is pre-setup for Mainstage, but I think it would be pretty easy to set up Korg combis that call up whatever Mainstage patches you want, and they could be assigned to Set List slots. An advantage of using a Kronos over a VAX is that it has the hard faders (I'm thinking for drawbar use and for level controls for split/layered sounds, and this is assuming that the Kronos faders can be programmed to interact with Mainstage in these ways), though you could also use some other controller for that. The Korg NanoKontrol is nice and small, too bad it only has 8 faders, and you'd want 9 for drawbars. I guess you could hook up a pair of them... 9 dedicated drawbars leaving 7 for other purposes, albeit with some questionable ergonomics...

 

Rather than a Kronos, for a lot less money, you could get a M50... 73 keys and 10 lbs lighter than a Kronos, too. Assuming that it's for "backup," the fact that it doesn't have the same sonic capabilities might not matter, plus it boots fast, and it still has a touch screen which I think you could configure for easy Mainstage patch selection (even if not as nice as Kronos' Set List screen). You would lose the faders and aftertouch, though. (You could get those back if you moved up to the 73-key M3, but that's 38 lbs.)

 

Another Kronos alternative could be the Kurzweil PC361, which Novamusik still has for under $1,000. No touchscreen, but it's a particularly strong MIDI controller with pretty much every conceivable mapping option and controller input (i.e. compared to the Kronos, it supports more foot pedals, breath controller, ribbon controller). It's got the 9 faders and aftertouch too, and its Quick Access mode should work well for calling up Mainstage presets (it assigns hard buttons to presets, ten at a time, and the names for the ten presets come up in the LCD display). Good backup sounds and fast booting.

 

Personally, as mentioned in another thread, I've been looking into lightweight soundless controllers. Since I'd always have an 88 with sounds on bottom, I don't need sound backup in my Mini (or whatever) controller. Still, no light soundless controller offers everything either. You can get the 9 faders and aftertouch, but there's almost nothing with more than 61 keys (just CME, which isn't so light), and nothing with a touchscreen. Worst is that none seem to have an easy way (or in some cases, any way?) to do patch recall with buttons (as opposed to scrolling). So then it would probably be more important to integrate some kind of accessible screen interface to the computer, or an iPad, or something else for patch selection.

 

EDIT: the older NanoKontrol has 9 faders. (and on the newer one, I suppose you could use one of its knobs as a 9th fader in a pinch...)

[Marzzz]

The VAX77 fits just perfectly into the live with computer set up.

[Ashville.Guru]

2) VAX77 firmware supports Mainstage explicitly, and remotes the "Patch Select" list to the VAX's local touchscreen. You can't edit or rearrange anything, but it may eliminate even the need for the MIMO monitor onstage (except for emergencies)

 

Man, I'm DROOLING at a feature like this. I checked out the videos on the Infinite Response site, and turns out it works with Forte also...!

 

For those of us who want to use a computer on stage, but don't want to be constantly reminded of it(!), it doesn't get better than this. I would love to play live with my laptop lid closed. It's possible, I've done it, but there's that nagging feeling of insecurity. What if you've sent a patch change message from your hardware, but something went wrong and the patch really hasnt changed? There's no feedback from the computer (read - tone module) to your keys/hardware.

 

Only options: (1) keep the laptop screen visible at all times => you're stuck with the bad form factor/stage presence of laptops, (2) Mount a small 7" screen like the Mimo on your board => extra cabling and connections.

 

Which is why the VAX77 touchscreen integration is so awesome. The screen reflects the actual patch state on the computer. If a patch changes on the board, then you know it has changed on the computer.

 

IMO, ideally that should be the only reason you need a screen on stage. Troubleshooting apart, that is. I find that apart from patch change, searching for any other information on a screen actually distracts from my playing. GUIs are very useful in the studio, but if I hate having to stare at a GUI on stage. I prefer to see/feel only my keys, knobs, sliders and buttons. If you design, setup and test your host software right, there is absolutely no need to interact with the goddamn computer on stage. You can tuck it away, (preferably somewhere out of sight) and it will feel exactly like using a hardware module. If I had a VAX77, I'd actually prefer a laptop - I just have to open the screen for troubleshooting; no hassles of an carrying and connecting USB monitor/mouse/keypad.

 

Scott, (re)acquiring a VAX77 would be a much wiser decision than mucking around with an iPad on stage. Simple, robust, elegant, very much similar to good old hardware modules, yet with the awesome advantage of tone quality. If I were in the US, Marzz, I would have snapped up the one you've put up...

 

Apart from the VAX77, which other keyboards can display patch information from a computer host like Mainstage/Forte?

[Phil Aiken]

I am totally sold on the mac mini route and will likely be going down that road in the coming months. I will rack mine, wired to an interface and a hardware mixer for when I use a 2nd keyboard.

Meanwhile I am playing around with the VAX/mainstage combo on my macbook pro. It is pretty slick.

I also tried out host control mode with my Receptor, but my multis are not currently set up in such a way to put it to good use - specifically because I have instruments on differing midi channels.

[AnotherScott]

Only options: (1) keep the laptop screen visible at all times => you're stuck with the bad form factor/stage presence of laptops, (2) Mount a small 7" screen like the Mimo on your board => extra cabling and connections.

or (3) an iPad with a VNC program. Its wireless and self-powered, so no extra cabling or connections. One thing I like about the idea of using it on a VAX77 is that it can lay flat, so it can "feel" like it's just a touch panel on your keyboard. This would work with a laptop, which has its own screen even if you can't see it. I'm not sure whether or not it works with a Mac Mini with no real screen attached, that's what I'm trying to find out, but I guess no one here knows!

 

Scott, (re)acquiring a VAX77 would be a much wiser decision than mucking around with an iPad on stage. Simple, robust, elegant, very much similar to good old hardware modules, yet with the awesome advantage of tone quality.

Well, there are different permutations... using an iPad only as a remote screen as just discussed, using it as a sound source, or both. I am guessing that, as a remote screen, an iPad should be even more usable than the VAX77's built-in Mainstage interface, and would have the advantage of working both with a VAX77 as well as with other controllers if you didn't want to gig with something as heavy or as pricey as a VAX... though I agree, weight and cost aside, the VAX is a great feeling and beautifully designed machine! Still, no matter what controller you choose, you end up wanting to add something. Even on the VAX, you'll want to add physical faders/drawbars.

 

If I do go with a Mainstage approach, requiring a controller above my Casio 88, I am leaning toward either:

 

Roland PCR-800

+10 lbs, drawbars (of a sort), aftertouch

- only 61 keys, and I'll have to come up with something I like for patch selection, whether iPad or something else

 

or

 

Korg M50

+17.6 lbs, 73 keys, touchscreen patch selection

- no aftertouch, and I'll have to rig up something else for drawbars

 

In both cases, there are some ergonomic challenges to deal with. VAX77 would be best for having the most functionality and the best ergonomics for adding what it needs, but it's not persuasive enough for me to want to deal with the double+ weight. And since I'd also have a weighted action board, the VAX's superiority over the M50 and PCR-800 for piano isn't a factor.

[Joe Muscara]

Scott,

 

The trick with using an iPad to control a Mac with VNC is that normally both devices would be on a WiFi network supplied by a base station of some sort. For this case, the Mac itself would have to be configured to create the WiFi network and the iPad to talk to it that way. It shouldn't be too hard, but a wise user would also make sure the connection is secure so that no mischievous person would hack your setup!

 

I "only" have a MacBook Pro. I use an external monitor. I just connected to it via VNC on my iPad and unplugged the monitor. The MBP went to sleep. I'm not sure if I could test something comparable to a "headless Mac mini" setup like Brad has.

[AnotherScott]

The trick with using an iPad to control a Mac with VNC is that normally both devices would be on a WiFi network supplied by a base station of some sort. For this case, the Mac itself would have to be configured to create the WiFi network and the iPad to talk to it that way. It shouldn't be too hard, but a wise user would also make sure the connection is secure

Yes, I think you can wifi-connect an iPad directly to a Mac with no base station involved, and yes, you'd want to enable password protection on the connection.

 

I "only" have a MacBook Pro. I use an external monitor. I just connected to it via VNC on my iPad and unplugged the monitor. The MBP went to sleep.

You can prevent the Macbook from going to sleep when its lid is closed using a program called InsomniaX. I was concerned about whether it was safe from a heat dissipation perspective, but it turns out that closed-lid operation is officially supported by Apple... the problem is that, as Apple implements it, I believe it only works when a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and AC adapter are all physically plugged in, i.e. when you are essentially operating it as a desktop computer.

 

But the Mini is another situation, because unlike a Macbook, there could be no monitor at all attached during bootup. When I checked into something like this years ago, I seem to remember that the solution was to jerry-rig some connector to the monitor jack so that it would think something was there even when it wasn't. That wasn't on the current Mini model, though.

[Ashville.Guru]

Scott, (re)acquiring a VAX77 would be a much wiser decision than mucking around with an iPad on stage. Simple, robust, elegant, very much similar to good old hardware modules, yet with the awesome advantage of tone quality.

Well, there are different permutations... using an iPad only as a remote screen as just discussed, using it as a sound source, or both. I am guessing that, as a remote screen, an iPad should be even more usable than the VAX77's built-in Mainstage interface...

You might have missed the point that I was making: any more information than what is provided by the built-in MS interface would actually be distracting and unnecessary.

By "more usable", I'm sure you mean you can control various softsynth parameters, besides seeing a full GUI with lots more information. At face value, this seems like a good thing. In practice, quite the opposite.

 

EDIT: This is a fascinating topic in itself, so I think I'll start a separate thread on the issue.

[Joe Muscara]

But the Mini is another situation, because unlike a Macbook, there could be no monitor at all attached during bootup. When I checked into something like this years ago, I seem to remember that the solution was to jerry-rig some connector to the monitor jack so that it would think something was there even when it wasn't. That wasn't on the current Mini model, though.

Since they are now selling the current minis as servers, one would think it's possible as the hardware is designed to.

 

Isn't Brad already doing this, only connecting the monitor and peripherals when he needs to?

[midinut]

I actually already have a Korg M3-73 which would function nicely I believe. Yeah, if the power goes down it pretty much goes down for everybody else on stage as well. I've just been lusting for a Kronos after laying my hands on one at GC. Plus as I approach "retirement" I'd like to get the whole studio downsized to allow me to pack it up in an RV and play "Have Studio ... Will Travel". This could possibly do the trick. And my post was not intended to slam or downplay the VAX77. Though I haven't ever seen or played one I feel certain through the posts from you fellow forumites that own or have played one that it's a great piece of kit. Notwithstanding, I miss poly aftertouch from my old Ensoniq days. AnotherScott also mentioned the PC361 as an alternative. With all its controller options I'd venture to guess it would make a fine controller. It'd be great to play a CS-80 VST using the ribbon, pedals, etc.

 

Another semi-related question. If I did jump ship on the PC side and grab a Mini ... I feel certain I can reinstall Cubase on the Mini but what about all my hundreds of "PC format" Cubase files? Would I be able to just open them up on the Mac and carry on or is some conversion process necessary. Just asking. The though of changing platforms is making me all queezy inside. And I was a Mac fanboy since my original Mac 128 back in 1984, I just haven't had a recent Mac in many years. Already have iPod, iPad and iPhone ... so I already drank the Kool-Aid thanks very much. lol

 

Matter of fact my iPad has a notepad page I've been wearing out as I've followed this thread. If I was just going to use it for live playing, I'd probably stick close to the other Brad and his setup. But since I would also like to make this my "portable studio" down the road, I'm looking deeper into being able to add more memory, purchase Logic Pro maybe, complete my Spectrasonics trilogy, try out Ableton, etc. I know I'm throwing more at it than Brad is and hence my OCD taking over ... thanks for listening!

 

Brad

[AnotherScott]

You might have missed the point that I was making: any more information than what is provided by the built-in MS interface would actually be distracting and unnecessary.

Ah, yes, I did miss that point. I haven't seen Mainstage yet. I was assuming (I know) that there would be some kind of full-screen (or close to full-screen) patch selection screen, which would be mirrored to the iPad in my scenario. It's not that I want more parameters, you're right about that. I was thinking that it could provide a larger number of presets that could be recalled with a single finger press.

 

One thing I like about the Korg Kronos, M3, M50, is that you can call up a screen that lists 16 sounds by name and you can tap the one you want. The small VAX screen can't present nearly that many, and that's where I thought an iPad could enhance the experience. (If Mainstage itself can't present a large list of presets on a single screen, then some other MIDI Program Changing app on the iPad might be a way to go, but that would be more cumbersome.)

[AnotherScott]

Since they are now selling the current minis as servers, one would think it's possible as the hardware is designed to.

Excellent point! I wonder if you need to have the Lion Server app to enable that functionality.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, if the power goes down it pretty much goes down for everybody else on stage as well.

The issue is, when it comes back, the rest of the band is usually ready to play within seconds of when the power comes back on... and it would be good to not be far behind! I remember playing one night where power went out maybe a half dozen times over the night, though never for more than a few seconds. I'm glad I didn't have to spend 15 set-minutes waiting for a Kronos to boot. The Kronos is a great board, but I would only gig with it as a part of a multi-board rig where the other board could be up within 10 seconds. (Or I suppose you could travel with a UPS.)

[Ashville.Guru]

It's not that I want more parameters, you're right about that. I was thinking that it could provide a larger number of presets that could be recalled with a single finger press.

 

One thing I like about the Korg Kronos, M3, M50, is that you can call up a screen that lists 16 sounds by name and you can tap the one you want. The small VAX screen can't present nearly that many, and that's where I thought an iPad could enhance the experience. (If Mainstage itself can't present a large list of presets on a single screen, then some other MIDI Program Changing app on the iPad might be a way to go, but that would be more cumbersome.)

 

This makes much more sense. However, my idea was that if you need that many preset patches, you'd probably want them to be organized into a defined order, or a setlist, right? Or do you actually choose spontaneously during performance, from a large number of patches, laid out buffet-style? If there's a setlist, then small size shouldn't be that much of an issue...

 

P.S. Just checked out this video from Infinite Response on Mainstage integration:

[video:youtube]

I have a feeling that you'll rethink the 'more screen=> more patches to choose from' advantage of the iPad! And BTW, I swear I had not heard the "computer can be hidden away" statement at 1:56... freak coincidence!

[AnotherScott]

do you actually choose spontaneously during performance, from a large number of patches, laid out buffet-style?

Yes, in fact, that's exactly how I work. Seriously. There are a handful of songs that I have pre-arranged complex patches for, and that ability is invaluable, but most of the time, I just call up the sound I want on the fly. (And our set lists change all the time.)

 

In fact, the trick has been that, on many boards, it's hard to call up a new RH sound on the fly while continuing to play LH bass. And often that's the best way to do it if you can, because calling up different presets (for instance, to switch from "LH Bass plus RH Organ" to "LH Bass plus RH Strings) can create a glitch in the sound of the LH Bass. So you often want to leave the "preset" as is, and just change the RH sound as you play.

 

Come to think of it, does Mainstage easily do this kind of sound switching?

[Ashville.Guru]

Yes, in fact, that's exactly how I work. Seriously. There are a handful of songs that I have pre-arranged complex patches for, and that ability is invaluable, but most of the time, I just call up the sound I want on the fly. (And our set lists change all the time.)

 

In fact, the trick has been that, on many boards, it's hard to call up a new RH sound on the fly while continuing to play LH bass. And often that's the best way to do it if you can, because calling up different presets (for instance, to switch from "LH Bass plus RH Organ" to "LH Bass plus RH Strings) can create a glitch in the sound of the LH Bass. So you often want to leave the "preset" as is, and just change the RH sound as you play.

Wow, that's interesting. Still as the vid shows, you should be able to rapidly home in on the patch of your choice, with the built-in screen. And patches are organized into categories, which should make it much more easier.

[Phil Aiken]

Any one know how easy it is to swap out the drives on a mini? I would want to buy the base model, then add a solid state drive for the system, and a larger drive for samples. I did this on my MB Pro and it was pretty painless. Also comes out WAY cheaper than ordering it with both drives.

[Tusker]

The "clean" rig, as it would sit onstage; just the VAX and the Mini:

 

Beautiful.

[burningbusch]

The funny thing is, if there is a power glitch and you have to reboot, the Mini will be up and running far more quickly than the Kronos!

 

That's not true in my experience.

 

You have the boot time of the OS, then whatever DAW/Host you're using. Now add time for all those sample libraries and soft synths. Total boot time on my gig Macbook is in the 3-4 minute range. Now that's with 7200RPM drive. An SSD would get that down for sure. A lot depends on what you're loading. On my Mac Pro, again with 7,200RPM drives. It takes 49 seconds for the Sonicouture Broken Wurli to do the initial load but 1 m 40 s before it's fully loaded. You can play it after the initial load but it might glitch on you until it's fully loaded. Add another 12 second to load Kontakt.

 

Busch.

[Jim Alfredson]

check out my post about HALion Sonic, a VST plug-in that's, for all intents and purposes, a software Motif XS.

Does it have a comparable "overblown" (velocity) flute?

 

It's actually more akin to a Motif ES. Sorry. No overblown flute that I can find.

[AnotherScott]

The funny thing is, if there is a power glitch and you have to reboot, the Mini will be up and running far more quickly than the Kronos!

 

That's not true in my experience.

I was basing that on the 30 second boot time quoted by the OP, but you're right, that doesn't include everything you're talking about. Maybe he can tell us how long it takes to fully boot into his operational state.

 

BTW, I think Lion boots much more quickly than Snow Leopard, plus quickly restores it to the state you had it when you shut down, so I bet that would reduce your load time quite a bit.

[Brad Kaenel]

I was basing that on the 30 second boot time quoted by the OP, but you're right, that doesn't include everything you're talking about. Maybe he can tell us how long it takes to fully boot into his operational state.

 

OK, OK, perhaps my estimate was optimistic...

 

On my wristwatch, power-on to ready-to-play: 90 seconds (60 seconds for Lion, 30 seconds for Mainstage)

 

And, yes, that's totally hands-off, with no peripherals plugged in. I get two visual progress cues on the VAX's screen; one at Mainstage "handshake" (screen blinks and displays "Mainstage"), the second after Mainstage finishes loading my startup concert and all of its instruments (screen blinks and displays my patch list). When I see the patch list, I'm live.

 

At anytime I can plug in the Mimo, and/or turn on the Trackpad, and Lion will recognize and activate them.

[AnotherScott]

OK, OK, perhaps my estimate was optimistic...

 

On my wristwatch, power-on to ready-to-play: 90 seconds (60 seconds for Lion, 30 seconds for Mainstage)

Well, that still beats the by Kronos by 45 seconds. And I'm guessing you could cut that boot time in half with an SSD.

 

I wonder if a Macbook Air might be better for this than a Mini.

 

I mentioned that there's a program that lets it run with the lid closed, so it would be, I think, even more "invisible" than the Mini, and on that rare time you need a screen, you just lift the lid and it's there.

 

Its 128 gb SSD and 4 gb RAM configuration should be plenty, yes?

 

Its battery means you essentially have a built in UPS, and boot time becomes a non-issue. (In fact, in some cases you could skip plugging into AC altogether.)

 

Any down side to this, other than being more expensive (and not being able to rack mount it)?

[Tusker]

The Air has two USB ports the Mini has four.

 

Nothing you can't fix with a USB hub but ...

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Any down side to this, other than being more expensive (and not being able to rack mount it)?

http://www.gearnuts.com/images/items/360/StudioFlyer.jpg

That's a SKB Studio Flyer rack case. BTW, why the Air? Why not a MBPro with an SSD? All the advantages that you just described apply. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Air underpowered compared to the MBP?

[Joe Muscara]

Keyboard tested the latest MacBook Air running a ton of channels and plugs in Logic, I believe, and no one would describe what they did as underpowered. Find the videos on the Keyboard magazine site.