VAX77 - Mac Mini - Mainstage

[Phil Aiken]

I've been obsessively fantasizing for several hours about that RackMac - fully loaded one could play some nice virtual instruments!

 

!

 

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/images/hdr_rackmacmini.jpg

I've been obsessively fantasizing for several hours about that RackMac - fully loaded one could play some nice virtual instruments!

 

 

I am thinking one Mac mini with an ssd system drive, and a 2nd 750GB drive for samples, with something like an Apogee Duet or RME Babyface in the other half of the rack. Or a 2nd mini for total redundancy. Sweet.

[humannoyed]

I think the mac mini has great possibilities too, especially since it's recent power and memory updates. I have posted as much on a few threads. Glad to see someone making it work. Please keep us posted on the progress.

 

I had also thought of a compact, self-contained soft instrument playing keyboard with a small chamber within the keyboard for a mac mini to reside. I am thinking of something with the form factor around the size and weight of an electro.

 

With other companies already building ipad docking gear, this is not far-fetched I don't think.

[David R]

I use a 1st gen Mac Mini with an Axiom mk2, and a big honking normal monitor. That bus-powered mini-monitor is sweeeeeeeet.

[Bill W]

Hmmmm...this is intriguing! That's a powerful little box and not too terribly overpriced as many of the Apple computers are.

[Brad Kaenel]

After smoothing out a few more rough patches, I'm ready to gig this rig. Here's the latest, by component:

 

VAX77: In the firmware setup, you have the option of configuring the VAX to powerup in "Host Mode"; the alternative is to powerup in "Library Mode", and then manually switch to Host Mode. The latter caused me no end of MIDI problems -- dropped connections, weird remoting/syncing behavior, lockups -- bad enough that I wondered if the whole "hosting" thing was actually going to work at all. At Infinite Response's suggestion, I switched to "Host Mode" powerup and almost magically everything became seamless -- it just worked. Since making that one config change my confidence in the VAX/Mainstage symbiosis has been restored.

 

Mainstage: Resist the temptation to integrate the VAX into one of MS' existing "concert" templates. This clearly exaccerbated the MIDI connectivity problems I initially had. Instead, start with a totally blank concert -- no patches, no keyboards, nada. Then start with defining your "virtual rig"; add a keyboard (MS recognizes the VAX explicitly, not as just a generic controller), add your pitchbend/modwheel controls, your sustain pedal, expression pedal, etc. This not only solved all my MIDI issues, it helped me to "grok" MS a little more fundamentally; trying to short-cut the learning curve just proved to be frustrating.

 

Turns out, I wasn't the first person to wrestle with the VAX/Mainstage alligator. A couple of very thorough blog posts by muso Nathanael Liversen provided valuable insight and direction: VAX77 and Mainstage

 

And as always, tech support from Infinite Response was prompt and always right-on-the-money. (Please IR, publish a VAX/Mainstage "Tips and Tricks" pamphlet!)

 

Mac Mini: I've had no problems at all with the latest Mini as a computer, even with the new-ish Lion OS. The stock memory/disk configuration has proved more than quick enough. No noticeable latency with the software instruments I've setup. Has seemed very stable and sturdy.

 

Instruments: My needs are typical and minimal - Ac Piano, Rhodes/Wurly, Hammond, Strings, a good DX/FM El Piano, muted trumpet, flute, and a couple of synths leads. I selected all modelled instruments for my main sounds: Pianoteq, Lounge Lizard, VB3. None of these seems to overtax the processor on the Mini at all, and they all sound very good to me. Mainstage came with literally a boatload of sampled and synthesized sounds/instruments, and you download most of the Logic and Garageband instruments for free, as well -- an incredible library for just the $30 that Mainstage 2 costs. Plenty of decent orchestral and synth sounds to choose from, even a nice Steinway. I don't see myself having to spend any more money on instruments unless I need something super-specialized.

 

The MS "FM" synth, unfortunately, is a bit puny and only supports 2 operators; meh. I could use a recommendation for a good "DX7" piano AudioUnit.

 

Mimo monitor: Still haven't received the Lion-compatible touchscreen drivers yet. They're supposedly done, but so far nothing to show for my $30; I'm considering asking for a refund until they're actually published. Even if they're vaporware, the Mimo works great as just a small monitor, and my Bluetooth mouse works fine on top of the VAX. The onscreen keyboard has been a little problematic because the Shift key isn't "sticky", making it difficult to type capitals. I've yet to verify that Lion provides a system Preference that fixes that. So, again, for emergencies that integrated keyboard/trackpad I mentioned in the OP might still be the ticket.

 

Don't believe the Mimo docs that say you can't use it as your primary monitor -- you can under Lion. The trick is that you need to first install and config your Mini using a "real" monitor, then add the Mimo, config it as your primary, and then remove the (now secondary) monitor; voile. One caveat; the Mimo must be powered-off or unplugged at the beginning of the Mac boot sequence. Activate it later, and then Lion will "see" the USB monitor and start sending it video.

 

Radial ProAV1: It just works; 'nuff said. The audio OUT jack on the Mini is line-level, and pretty hot. I don't even need a headphone amp to monitor myself -- I just plug my phones directly in to the audio THRU jacks on the Radial, and send the mono XLR out to FOH. I don't detect any noise or flutter from the Mini's stereo jack; I remain unconvinced that a USB or FireWire audio interface is necessary for this rig.

 

Overall: I have to say I'm liking this rig more everyday. The Mac and the software instruments seem stable. The VAX/Mainstage integration actually works well -- I don't need to look at or touch the Mac, provided I've setup everything in preconfigured Patches ahead of time.

 

I will say that the only component that makes me nervous is Mainstage itself, and I attribute that really to my own rookie-status at using DAW's and software instruments (and perhaps my 30 years as a computer programmer, knowing the inherent weaknesses of commercial hardware/software in mission-critical applications.) But I'm growing more confident, and I really do think it will only be a short while before the Mini/Mainstage combo becomes just another ROMpler (maybe I should say "RAMpler") -- and that's a good thing.

 

Who's with me?

[Justin Havu]

I've been using a MBPro 13" laptop w/MS controlled by both an Axiom61 (2nd Gen) and Alesis Quadrasynth. It's quite solid, with very little latency. I've also integrated a Korg TR-Rack into the mix, and while I can set up MS to change programs on the TR-Rack, I can't get it to change banks. Someday, I'd like to have MS handle 100% of all program changes for my gear via MIDI, and never have to adjust anything on the TR-Rack, or Quadrasynth again. It's getting there, though.

[Joe Muscara]

Thanks for the update, Brad. Sounds like you have a cool rig going there.

[AnotherScott]

Anyone have experience converting/loading soundfont (SF2) files into Mainstage? Does it work well? Can you split, layer, and instantly switch between SF2-sourced instruments?

 

Also, instead of a the Mimo monitor, has anyone tried using an iPad as a Mac Mini monitor+keyboard, using VNC? Does it work without having an actual monitor hooked up to the Mini?

[David R]

Brad - have you tried a USB or FireWire interface with the rig? I used to plug from the headphone out of my Mac Mini into my SRM150 and send the XLR out from the 150 to FOH. It sounded fine to me but after a while I noticed that there would be noise, especially on patches with reverb and/or delay. (The other issue that I had with this setup was that the volume controls on the SRM150 seemed to control both the monitor level and the send to FOH, so if I needed more volume onstage I cranked my overall level as well.)

 

I got the MOTU Audio Express which has provided supremely clean audio. The difference in sound is night and day, to my ears. The FOH guys noticed too.

 

The Mac Mini/Mainstage/Axiom rig has been my ONLY rig for three years now. I find the workflow of it all to be indispensable for the gigs I do. Programming it from the ground up is the only way to go. Once you have a template set up that works, save it as a concert template, or create all your new concert files from that start point and save them as new files.

 

Definitely looking into that MiMo monitor, though. Thanks for the heads up on that one!

 

David

 

PS: For DX7, I think you might be able to get close with Sculpture, and I believe EVP88 has a fairly FM-y sounding model, too.

[Phil Aiken]

Brad,

I know you did the work of putting the rig together for your own benefit, but your detailed posts here were strictly for our collective benefit, and I thank you for that. I found them to be informative and well thought out, and you have inspired me to spend more time with Mainstage and my VAX with an eye towards nudging my Receptor out of the picture, at least for certain gigs. I will start with my MB Pro, but if it works out for me, I may very well go with the Mac Mini and touchscreen as you have done.

Please keep us posted as you press it into action.

-Phil

[Phil Aiken]

Anyone have experience converting/loading soundfont (SF2) files into Mainstage? Does it work well? Can you split, layer, and instantly switch between SF2-sourced instruments?

 

Also, instead of a the Mimo monitor, has anyone tried using an iPad as a Mac Mini monitor+keyboard, using VNC? Does it work without having an actual monitor hooked up to the Mini?

 

Mainstage is a host, not a software instrument - so whatever instrument you currently use with your sf2 files should work, as long as it has an AU version.

I am not sure if the included built in sampler handles sf2 files or not. I will try to remember to check. I use Kontakt, and rarely fire up the Logic (Mainstage) sampler. Someone else might know offhand.

[Brad Kaenel]

Brad - have you tried a USB or FireWire interface with the rig?

 

So far, I haven't. The MOTU AE would be way overkill for me; even the apparent simplicity of the Apogee Duet seems like too much. I guess that's because I really don't need any Inputs, only Outputs. If I ever did decide I really needed a DAC, I would start by trying something small and focused, like the FiiO units: FiiO E10 USB DAC/Headphone Amp

 

I don't know nearly enough about the DACs that are used in the latest Mac Mini, but the line-level audio I'm getting from the "headphone jack" sounds pretty clean to me. At least, it sounds good coming out of the Radial and through my QSC monitors.

 

Thanks for the tip on EVP88; I'll keep auditioning patches until I find something DX7-ish. (Wow, there's so much in those MS2 libraries to sift thru!) And I was reminded that there's a DX7 piano in my GSI KeyPerformer package, so I'll try that one, too.

 

 

[Brad Kaenel]

... your detailed posts here were strictly for our collective benefit, and I thank you for that. I found them to be informative and well thought out, and you have inspired me to spend more time with Mainstage and my VAX...

Thank you, Phil; it's my pleasure, truly. I'm glad my experiences have been helpful to you. It's fun for me to work these things out and document them.

 

Grab that MacBook and jump on the bandwagon!

[AnotherScott]

Mainstage is a host, not a software instrument - so whatever instrument you currently use with your sf2 files should work, as long as it has an AU version.

This is all new stuff to me, I haven't really used any software instruments. Would GarageBand work?

[Ashville.Guru]

Mainstage is a host, not a software instrument - so whatever instrument you currently use with your sf2 files should work, as long as it has an AU version.

This is all new stuff to me, I haven't really used any software instruments. Would GarageBand work?

Klonk for an intro I just posted on another thread.

[therealvicz]

The MS "FM" synth, unfortunately, is a bit puny and only supports 2 operators; meh. I could use a recommendation for a good "DX7" piano AudioUnit.

 

That would be NI FM8 Advertising Bumf

[Tusker]

Brad, thanks so much for this thread. I'm just starting to use Mainstage and your posts have helped. I'm using Mainstage to supplement an S90ES and Nord Modular. Here are three issues I am thinking about:

 

- An early goal is to eliminate the Nord for convenience, but like you, I find the FM options in MS are weak (Nord does fantastic FM. I use patches with 4-8 operator FM through some filtering.) At this point, I'm wondering if FM8 or Absynth will create some of the sound beds I am using the Nord for and whether those plug-ins will be stable in Mainstage. Alternatively I can sample the Nord and use Mainstage's playback module, but then I can't play the knobs as much as I do.

 

- Logic subtractive synths are pretty good and provide a much less significant processing hit than using an external plug-in. (I'm using Minimonsta which is still 32 bit, and I hope they will upgrade it so that it works better with MS2.)

 

- The general consensus in the MS2 community is that stability comes from reducing external AU's and simplifying continuous midi streams. I am married to a breath controller and a continuous pedal, and so far (fingers crossed) I haven't crashed Mainstage except during performance, only during programming.

 

Currently the pianos and rhodes are still from the S90ES but the B3 is VB3 from MS2. I'm still only halfway across the river ... but enjoying the transition. Thanks again,

 

Jerry

[AnotherScott]

[Klonk for an intro I just posted on another thread.

 

Thanks for the pointer, but as a beginner in this area, that post still left me confused. Let me try to clarify/simplify my question:

 

Let's say I have a handful of sampled instrument files on my Mac (I happen to have mentioned SF2 format, but they could be another format if that would be better), and I want to trigger them from my MIDI keyboard.

 

I can load an SF2 into Garageband, but as far as I know, GB doesn't let me quickly split, layer, and switch between sounds in live performance, either from its own screen or from MIDI Program Change commands generated by my MIDI keyboard.

 

Mainstage, as I understand it, lets me set up the splits and layers and quick patch changing (as well as, I think, the ability to trigger different sounds from different MIDI channels, and to include sounds from external hardware modules in its patches as well). But where do I load these sample files (SF2 or otherwise), what app acts as a host for these sounds? If I understand what beethree has said, I can't directly access those sounds from Mainstage. So based on what you and beethree have said, it sounds like there are two layers of "hosting" here... Mainstage hosts "instruments", but in turn, I need an "instrument" that can host an assortment of SF2 (or some other format) sound files... which could possibly be GarageBand, but maybe not...?

 

And as long as we're taking it this far... What else, if anything, is needed if I also want to trigger some sounds that are not my own sampled (SF2 or other) instruments? i.e. I want to trigger VB3 as well? Does that get loaded into Mainstage? GarageBand? Something else?

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Sorry, Scott, I now realize my response did not take your SF2 query into account.

 

You'll need a plugin that will load SF2 files. In AU format, there are several: there's Kontakt, Halion (which are industry standard, I suppose). There's the free Crystal Synth, and also something called Bismark. I haven't used any of these, though, and there are perhaps dozens of other options, freeware and otherwise, out there. Theadvanced plugin search of KVR audio should help get you started.

 

Once you've chosen your SF2 player plugin, have 3 host choices for live playing on a Mac: Mainstage, Rax, and Ableton Live. Any of these can host the plugin, allow you to play around with splits, layers, save them as patches, etc.

[Tusker]

You'll need a plugin that will load SF2 files.

 

If you are using Mainstage ... MS comes with a full featured sampler called EXS24. Per this link (and some others), EXS24 will load soundfonts and convert them into it's own format:

 

http://tweakheadz.com/exs24_page.html

 

EXS24 will act as a channel strip within Mainstage, and Mainstage will call the appropriate patches for the appropriate key-ranges, just as it would in any other soft synth. Hoping this helps,

[Brad Kaenel]

Thanks loads for the tip on using EXS24 to convert SoundFont files! I found a great-sounding DX7Rhodes piano sample in SoundFont2 format, and had no problem importing and creating a new MS instrument. Very Cool.

 

That SF2 import feature actually opens up a whole new world of available sounds to my rig. I'm calling mom tonite to tell her what I learned in school!

[AnotherScott]

So if I have a Mac Mini and Mainstage (not the full Logic package), I don't need anything else to be able to play Soundfont instruments? And I'd be able to play multiple Soundfont instruments at once, split, layered, and panned? Triggered either from the same or different MIDI channels? If the answer to all that is yes, I may have new rig plan...

 

(I still also have the question about using an iPad and VNC to serve as wireless monitor and mouse for a Mini with no other monitor attached...?)

[Brad Kaenel]

OK, Mission Control reports the board is green -- all systems are GO for gig-off!

 

Here's the rig:

 

Hardware

VAX77 midi controller (internal power supply)

Mac Mini (internal power supply)

Radial ProAV1 direct box (passive; XLR to FOH, headphone monitor)

Mimo 720S monitor (7" LCD; USB powered)

Apple Magic Trackpad (battery powered)

Bose OE2 headphones

 

Software

Mainstage 2.2 (built-in Logic instruments)

Lion OSX Onscreen Keyboard (w/ "sticky keys" enabled)

Pianoteq 3 PLAY

Lounge Lizard EP-3

Genuine Soundware VB3 1.4

Assorted SoundFont samples

 

Cabling

3x AC cables (VAX77, Mini, K8)

2x USB cables (VAX77 >> Mini; Mimo >> Mini)

2x 1/8" stereo audio cables (Mini >> ProAV1; ProAV1 >> headphones)

1x XLR cable (ProAV1 >> K8 or FOH)

 

All above fits into: IR rolling case

 

Support

Yamaha FC7 expression pedal

M-Audio sustain pedal

QSC K8 powered speaker

Hercules Z-stand

Quiklok bench

 

(Whew! When you list it all out like that... )

 

 

I had two outstanding issues from my last post: I couldn't figure out how to "type" shifted keystrokes on Lion's onscreen keyboard, and Lion-compatible drivers to enable the Mimo's touchscreen features were "complete", but not actually obtainable. Learning about the "sticky keys" System Preference solved the onscreen keyboard issue, and experimentation with the touchscreen on a Windows 7 machine convinced me that the idea was less practical than I had imagined.

 

With my money refunded for the touchscreen drivers, I decided to take a different tack and try an Apple Touchpad. This is just a super-cool accessory; I much prefer this over maneuvering a mouse around on top of the VAX. The flat Touchpad and the folded Mimo, together, are no more bulky than a paperback book. Plus, they look classy if I decide to actually set them up on top of the VAX, during a gig.

 

I've configured Lion to bootup without any annoying dialogs (password-less user account, missing keyboard is "OK", etc.) and to launch Mainstage, and likewise configured Mainstage to start in "Perform" mode, using the most-recently opened concert definition. The VAX, too, is configured to bootup in "Host Mode" and wait for the host (Mainstage) to connect.

 

Getting ready to play consists of powering-on the VAX, then the Mini. After about 30 seconds of OSX boot-time, Mainstage loads, handshakes with the VAX and voile! -- my Mainstage patchlist appears on the VAX's touchscreen, and I'm live. This is really close to the ROMpler-like experience I was hoping could be achieved. It's not instant-on, but it's pretty satisfying none the less!

 

(I know, pix or it didn't happen. Stay tuned...)

 

[Brad Kaenel]

So if I have a Mac Mini and Mainstage (not the full Logic package), I don't need anything else to be able to play Soundfont instruments? And I'd be able to play multiple Soundfont instruments at once, split, layered, and panned? Triggered either from the same or different MIDI channels?

 

Yes and yes. I haven't actually configured anything like that for myself, but I can confirm that the .SF2 file I converted thru the EXS24 sampler shows up as just another available instrument in Mainstage. And once you have an instrument, you can split it, layer it, pan it, any which way but loose.

 

You don't need to purchase Logic itself to do this -- the $30 Mainstage purchase gets you all of the Logic instruments, including the EXS24 sampler.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

FWIW, you may find that Pianoteq doesn't really stand out live amid other instruments (ie, real drums, real guitar, real bass, etc). At least, that's been my experience.

 

If you didn't see it, check out my post about HALion Sonic, a VST plug-in that's, for all intents and purposes, a software Motif XS.

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2391320/Re_Workstation_VST#Post2391320

[humannoyed]

Man, that is one of the coolest rigs I have read about. You are saying MS autoloads ready to play with no mousing, er... trackpadding around?

I am sincerely hoping it will be solid for you at the gig. Let us know how that goes. When are you taking it out?

 

Are you going to be using a UPS with that?

 

OK, Mission Control reports the board is green -- all systems are GO for gig-off!

 

Here's the rig:

 

Hardware

VAX77 midi controller (internal power supply)

Mac Mini (internal power supply)

Radial ProAV1 direct box (passive; XLR to FOH, headphone monitor)

Mimo 720S monitor (7" LCD; USB powered)

Apple Magic Trackpad (battery powered)

Bose OE2 headphones

 

Software

Mainstage 2.2 (built-in Logic instruments)

Lion OSX Onscreen Keyboard (w/ "sticky keys" enabled)

Pianoteq 3 PLAY

Lounge Lizard EP-3

VB3 1.4

Assorted SoundFont samples

 

Cabling

3x AC cables (VAX77, Mini, K8)

2x USB cables (VAX77 >> Mini; Mimo >> Mini)

2x 1/8" stereo audio cables (Mini >> ProAV1; ProAV1 >> headphones)

1x XLR cable (ProAV1 >> K8 or FOH)

 

All above fits into: IR rolling case

 

Support

QSC K8 powered speaker

Z-stand

Quiklok bench

 

(Whew! When you list it all out like out... )

 

 

I had two outstanding issues from my last post: I couldn't figure out how to "type" shifted keystrokes on Lion's onscreen keyboard, and Lion-compatible drivers to enable the Mimo's touchscreen features were "complete", but not actually obtainable. Learning about the "sticky keys" System Preference solved the onscreen keyboard issue, and experimentation with the touchscreen on a Windows 7 machine convinced me that the idea was less practical than I had imagined.

 

With my money refunded for the touchscreen drivers, I decided to take a different tack, and try an Apple Touchpad. This is just a super-cool accessory; I much prefer this over maneuvering a mouse around on top of the VAX. The flat Touchpad and the folded Mimo, together, are no more bulky than a paperback book. Plus, they look classy if I decide to actually set them up on top of the VAX, during a gig.

 

I've configured Lion to bootup without any annoying dialogs (password-less user account, missing keyboard is "OK", etc.) and to launch Mainstage, and likewise configured Mainstage to start in "Perform" mode, using the most-recently opened concert definition. The VAX, too, is configured to bootup in "Host Mode" and wait for the host (Mainstage) to connect.

 

Getting ready to play consists of powering-on the VAX, then the Mini. After about 30 seconds of OSX boot-time, Mainstage loads, handshakes with the VAX and voile! My Mainstage patchlist appears on the VAX's touchscreen, and I'm live. This is really close to the ROMpler-like experience I was hoping could be achieved. It's not instant-on, but it's pretty satisfying none the less!

 

(I know, pix or it didn't happen. Stay tuned...)

 

[Brad Kaenel]

The "clean" rig, as it would sit onstage; just the VAX and the Mini:

 

 

 

 

The "emergency kit"; monitor and trackpad:

 

 

 

With accessories setup:

 

 

 

 

Cartage review:

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

Too sweet.

[Brad Kaenel]

FWIW, you may find that Pianoteq doesn't really stand out live amid other instruments (ie, real drums, real guitar, real bass, etc). At least, that's been my experience.

If I had it to do over again, I probably would have skipped the Pianoteq purchase because I eventually found Yamaha and Steinway patches that I really liked, among the truckload of Logic instruments (there's just a ton of stuff to audition). But that's OK, 'cause PLAY isn't that expensive, and I like to support tech guys that I think are doing good work. Actually, I really liked one of their free add-on "eccentric" pianos, and that one's in my master patch list. So I'll consider PLAY a good investment for the future...

[Brad Kaenel]

You are saying MS autoloads ready to play with no mousing, er... trackpadding around?

Yep; comes up ready to play without having to touch it.

 

Are you going to be using a UPS with that?

Nah. If the venue goes dark, I doubt it will make any difference that my rig is running on batteries!