VB3 vs. Hammond XK3

[Jim Alfredson]

Yeah, but that's another thing to drag around. I'll be fine this week. The gigs will be fine, too.

 

On a positive note, I figured out how to utilized the master controller capabilities of the Privia PX3 and it's literally saving my butt. It's awesome!

[Throbert]

I'm sorry I updated my post, check it out, might help.

[Aidan]

Sounds like you need that SK1 bad, Jim!

[Craig MacDonald]

The bad: I'm getting eaten alive by the band. It sounds great at low volumes. When we start creeping up in volume, I just get buried. Turning up my volume doesn't help, it just gets muddy, mushy, and messy. Contrast that with the Motif ES rack which cuts through like a knife. Both the Motif & VB3 are running through the same mixer / amp / speaker.

 

It could be a combination of things... the fact that Steinberg C1 is really a low end interface, the fact that you're really accustomed to your Hammond rig (and you've spent a lot of time tuning it to your liking), but perhaps there's another option to try (one that I don't think I've seen mentioned here).

 

When I first tried VB3 I immediately loved the warmth of it and the authenticity of it.. however, I wasn't happy with one thing... it didn't really seem to scream the way my mid 60's B3 did, and perhaps this is the same problem that you are referring to. I contacted Guido about it and he politely told me to read the manual, and said that this could easily be fixed by simply changing the keyboard scaling to emphasize the mids. At the time I didn't think that this made sense because I mostly noticed the lack of scream on the top two octaves, but I guess it's the mid frequencies that increase the presence and provide the scream...

 

I did as he suggested and it did improve the situation, however it wasn't until I switched to the 147 leslie sim that I really ended up with a sound I was happy with.. For jazz players the 122 is the natural selection, but as a classic rock player I lean towards the 147, and it really does cut better. You said that your motif and VB3 are going through the same mixer/amp/speaker so I assume that you're using the VB3 sim, so give the 147 sim a try if you haven't done that already.

 

I'm not using it live, so when I say it cuts better I mean that it cuts better in the mix.

[davinwv]

The bad: I'm getting eaten alive by the band. It sounds great at low volumes. When we start creeping up in volume, I just get buried. Turning up my volume doesn't help, it just gets muddy, mushy, and messy. Contrast that with the Motif ES rack which cuts through like a knife. Both the Motif & VB3 are running through the same mixer / amp / speaker.

 

It could be a combination of things... the fact that Steinberg C1 is really a low end interface, the fact that you're really accustomed to your Hammond rig (and you've spent a lot of time tuning it to your liking), but perhaps there's another option to try (one that I don't think I've seen mentioned here).

 

When I first tried VB3 I immediately loved the warmth of it and the authenticity of it.. however, I wasn't happy with one thing... it didn't really seem to scream the way my mid 60's B3 did, and perhaps this is the same problem that you are referring to. I contacted Guido about it and he politely told me to read the manual, and said that this could easily be fixed by simply changing the keyboard scaling to emphasize the mids. At the time I didn't think that this made sense because I mostly noticed the lack of scream on the top two octaves, but I guess it's the mid frequencies that increase the presence and provide the scream...

 

I did as he suggested and it did improve the situation, however it wasn't until I switched to the 147 leslie sim that I really ended up with a sound I was happy with.. For jazz players the 122 is the natural selection, but as a classic rock player I lean towards the 147, and it really does cut better. You said that your motif and VB3 are going through the same mixer/amp/speaker so I assume that you're using the VB3 sim, so give the 147 sim a try if you haven't done that already.

 

I'm not using it live, so when I say it cuts better I mean that it cuts better in the mix.

 

I believe Craig's points are all valid.

 

When you have some cash to spare, definitely get a better interface than the Steinberg. I use an Avid MBox3. When I replaced my Presonus Firestudio Mobile with the MBox3, I noticed an immediate improvement in sound quality and my ability to "cut" through a mix live (I had previously replaced some M-Audio boxes with the Presonus and noticed the same thing). You can't expect converters on the Steinberg's level to compete with the pro-level converters on your hardware gear. Avid used Apogee gear as the benchmark for sound quality when designing the MBox3 line. The higher-end Steinbergs are also worth a look.

 

Also, if you are not using the Rock 147 Leslie cabinet type, try it. I find none of the other cabinet types get the job done for live work in a rock/country/pop context, or even for recording in those styles at home in Cubase.

 

I use VB3 live all the time, in fairly loud situations, and I rarely have problems cutting through a mix.

[Dana.]

Sounds like you need that SK1 bad, Jim!

Yeah, why not sell one or two of your 80 other vintage keyboards to fund it?

[Jim Alfredson]

All valid suggestions. I realize the C1 isn't all that, but Alchemy and Pianoteq sound fine through it live. Then again, different plugs.

 

I think I am using the Rock 147 Leslie. I'll check when I get to the studio in about a half hour. I also messed with all the tonewheel scaling options.

 

It's funny because the first time I used it on a gig last year, I had to play through a guitar amp because the club had no keyboard amp nor any extra monitors (I didn't even have a vocal monitor). I had the same issue; just mud. I chocked it up to the amp but in Norway, at the Hell Blues Festival last year, I was playing a full XK3c system and the Leslie 145 crapped out after the first song. For the first night I played it through the monitors using the internal sim. The second night I put it through a guitar amp, again using the internal sim, and it sounded bad-ass! Obviously different amps but they were both Fenders with a single 12" speaker.

 

Anyway, I'll keep monkeying with it! Thanks!

[Mitch Towne]

Jim,

 

I had similar issues when using the VB3 from my MacBook. It isn't quite balanced enough. Low end is HUGE or the high end is LOUD but the in-between was hard to find. Tonewheel scaling helped a lot, but it ended up being a trade off.

 

Just for the record, the VB3 Ver 2 doesn't suffer from this in the least. I never have a problem cutting through a loud band and it never gets muddy. Also, different tonewheel sets offer different sounding organs, so one may be more midrangy and one may emphasize the high end. I have found that I like one set when playing jazz and another set for playing blues and r&b. It's nice to have choices.

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

That's great news, Mitch. I hope Guido releases VB3-2 soon for us regular folks.

 

I've been playing with the settings at this rehearsal and I've gotten it to sound better. I'm using the Rock 147 setting with the Distance knob set quite far to the right and I set the tonewheel scaling to Mid Boost. It helps a lot. Having fun!

[Jim Alfredson]

I had a much better experience this afternoon after following some of the suggestions here. Thanks, guys!

 

To me, this experience proves that in order to achieve the sound you want, you have to spend time not only tweaking things, but learning how the instrument / plug-in / hardware responds. It took me about two weeks to really get used to the XK System, coming from a real B3. And now it's taken me about a week to get used to VB3 coming from the XK3. And of course nothing puts an instrument through it's paces than a gig! We'll see how it fares on Thursday.

[Joe Muscara]

Cool, Jim. I'm glad to hear it. Otherwise, you might have been the first I heard of that ended up not liking or being able to use VB3.

[Jim Alfredson]

I like VB3 a lot. I use it in my home studio often. We'll see how it fares at the gig where the volume levels are going to be an order of magnitude greater than any of the rehearsal days!

[davinwv]

I like VB3 a lot. I use it in my home studio often. We'll see how it fares at the gig where the volume levels are going to be an order of magnitude greater than any of the rehearsal days!

 

Just remember to give yourself some headroom on your interface. During sound check / level setting, keep the master volume on the Steinberg at between 60-75% and get a monitor level you like. Then, when everyone gets cranking, you'll have a bit of control over your volume via that last 25-40%.

 

I have fallen into a "gain staging" trap several times on gigs. Your instinct is to send the hottest signal to FOH you can; however, that gives you no room to make sure your software cuts.

[Jim Alfredson]

Alright, so I only did one gig with the VB3 rig. The other gig had an unexpected tonewheel console available, a really nice early 50's C2 and a 22r Leslie. Sounded great and was a lot of fun to play, even with the ratchet drawbars.

 

Anyway, the one gig I did with the VB3 rig was fine, but again I had volume issues and didn't feel like I could really cut well. It was a small stage, small room with a low ceiling, and we were playing pretty quiet all things considered. VB3 definitely does not have the range via the expression pedal that the XK3 does. I wish that was editable. I have my expression pedal on the XK3 set so that it emulates the older consoles, which did not have the "NORMAL / SOFT" rocker switch in the upper left corner like the B2, B3's etc. My old BCV's pedal had a huge dynamic range. You could go from a whisper to taking someone's head off with a sweep of the pedal. That's how I like my XK3 because I can get it way under the singer or soloist and then right on top when I do my thing.

 

It sounded good, overall but I missed the XK3. That's really the best way to sum it up for me.

 

And I gotta say, after a week of rehearsing on the VB3 rig and doing that one gig... hell, even the other three gigs with various real tonewheel Hammonds (crappy B3, that C2, great B3)... yesterday at rehearsal in LA I was so happy to be back with my regular rig.

 

Reunited and it feels so good!

 

I was all set to sell the XK3 and Leslie 21 System in April when we end our next run in Michigan and use that money to get an SK1, but now I'm not so sure. I really love how the XK3 feels, how it has some weight to it (doesn't feel like a toy), how it responds to my playing, how the expression pedal responds, etc. It just feels right to me. Of course, I've been playing it for almost six years now. But it was like coming home yesterday during rehearsal. And the rig sounds so good. Ventilator into the 2121 adding the grunge, Leslie 2101 giving the real motion. I'm now thinking I shouldn't mess with a good thing!

[David Loving]

Sometimes that is the wise choice. Think how long it took to really learn this instrument, and how it's just like you like it. An sk1 would be real convenient and a good addition to your rig, but not at the expense of what you have going. Maybe you can tote your vintage B3s to gigs instead of the XK system. You know them well, too.

[Jim Alfredson]

What I need to do is sell one of the vintage consoles to fund the SK1 for fly-dates. Anyone need a mint condition '74 B3 with 122 or a 1959 Hammond A100?

[Dana.]

Have you contacted Guido to get some help with the volume deficiency?

[Dana.]

What I need to do is sell one of the vintage consoles to fund the SK1 for fly-dates. Anyone need a mint condition '74 B3 with 122 or a 1959 Hammond A100?

Sounds familiar...

 

Yeah, why not sell one or two of your 80 other vintage keyboards to fund it?

[Tonysounds]

I was all set to sell the XK3 and Leslie 21 System in April when we end our next run in Michigan and use that money to get an SK1, but now I'm not so sure. I really love how the XK3 feels, how it has some weight to it (doesn't feel like a toy), how it responds to my playing, how the expression pedal responds, etc. It just feels right to me. Of course, I've been playing it for almost six years now. But it was like coming home yesterday during rehearsal. And the rig sounds so good. Ventilator into the 2121 adding the grunge, Leslie 2101 giving the real motion. I'm now thinking I shouldn't mess with a good thing!

 

I think youd miss the comfort of the layout of your XK3 system, Jim.

 

So Ventilator into the 2121: youre using the Vs overdrive, and leaving it in stop Im guessing?

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Yeah, I know D-bon. The problem is the market is shit right now.

[Jim Alfredson]

 

I think youd miss the comfort of the layout of your XK3 system, Jim.

 

So Ventilator into the 2121: youre using the Vs overdrive, and leaving it in stop Im guessing?

 

The 2121 is a stationary speaker, as you know. I have the Vent going into that and the XK3 also feeding the 2101 Leslie on top. So basically I have two Leslies... one real and one virtual. It sounds great! The real horn of the 2101 gives me the room interactions and the Vent gives me the grunge. And I can just give the sound guys a direct off the Vent so I don't have to worry about shitty mic techniques, mixing, etc.

[Tonysounds]

 

I think youd miss the comfort of the layout of your XK3 system, Jim.

 

So Ventilator into the 2121: youre using the Vs overdrive, and leaving it in stop Im guessing?

 

The 2121 is a stationary speaker, as you know. I have the Vent going into that and the XK3 also feeding the 2101 Leslie on top. So basically I have two Leslies... one real and one virtual. It sounds great! The real horn of the 2101 gives me the room interactions and the Vent gives me the grunge. And I can just give the sound guys a direct off the Vent so I don't have to worry about shitty mic techniques, mixing, etc.

 

 

I knew you were running both the 2101 System (onstage monitoring) and the Ventilator for FOH (or interpreted it that way), but youre actually running the Ventilator in spin mode into the stationary cab, and running the 2101 in spin too? So Im guessing that XK3 is using the multi-pin connector straight to the 2101 so youre not getting any weird leslied leslie sounds? With the net result being the same as (or in the neighborhood of) 2 onstage leslies?

 

If I understand correctly, good for me! But better for you! That would be awesome!!!

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes, I use a custom 11pin cable to connect both the 2101 and the Vent at the same time. The Vent is switched along with the 2101 into fast / slow / stop. It's bad-ass.

[JoJoB3]

Thread resurrection alert!

 

Jim, All...

 

VB3 via XK-3

 

How in the heck can you control all other switches/ctrls aspects besides the mod wheel for leslie switching, Upr/Lwr DB's, and swell? I'm able to use VB3 via my XK-3 full setup (non "C"). I've mapped all DB's which work fine, but I can't for the life of me change the percussion, C/V rotate knob or upper/lwr switch. That stuff is key.

 

I think I've tried everything but is there any route to accomplishing that?

 

Also, the VB3 presets and the XK3 preset octave - how do you save your OWN presets in VB3? I was thinking one solution is to save presets of such C/V and Perc settings. But when I press an XK3 preset key it always loads VB3's (named) presets (which apparently I can't edit and save, at least I'm not seeing where one can).

 

I'm using a Vmachine (for leads, some wurly/rhodes stuff and synths it's capable of handling). It plays VB3 great.

 

Sorry to bring back the dead.

[Jim Alfredson]

As far as I know, there's no way to assign percussion, C/V controls, etc. from the XK3 to VB3. This is because of the strange way Hammond assigned CC to the controls. I assume you're using the plugin that allows you to route the drawbars? Someone needs to design something similar to make the other controls work.

 

Ditto for the presets.

[JoJoB3]

Well, I've seen a couple programs relating, but I'm not sure it addresses control mapping.

 

One is the VB3 controller - http://www.midikarval.net/VB3Controller.html

 

But I think think it's just a more robust version of the free which I just tried -

DRAWBARS MAPPER FOR XK-3 found here http://www.midikarval.net/FreeVst.html

 

I suspect neither address the other control issues outside of DB control.

 

Anyway, the Vmachine plays VB3 fine otherwise and I was able to try the full XK3 rig setup (lwr man, pedals).

 

 

As far as I know, there's no way to assign percussion, C/V controls, etc. from the XK3 to VB3. This is because of the strange way Hammond assigned CC to the controls. I assume you're using the plugin that allows you to route the drawbars? Someone needs to design something similar to make the other controls work.

 

Ditto for the presets.

[JMcS]

 

You might be able to use the MIDI Mapper here:

 

http://squest.com/Products/SQMidiTools/SQMidiTools.html

 

to change the XK-3's NRPN messages for a number of the controls.