VB3 vs. Hammond XK3

[Jim Alfredson]

As I mentioned in this thread, I need to use VB3 for some gigs / rehearsals in Florida in the next few weeks with Janiva Magness. I've used VB3 once before on a gig with that band but it was with a really crappy synth (Yamaha W7 iirc) and I had to play it through a tiny guitar amp. Needless to say, the experience wasn't fun.

 

I wanted to test my rig and make sure it was stable, with no clicks or pops and no crashes, so I took my laptop, my Steinberg C1 interface, and the necessary cables to my gig tonight in Grand Rapids. It was a low-key gig; a jam session really. We (organissimo) play the first set and then people sit in. Easy.

 

I had my normal organ trio rig with me as well; the Hammond XK System (with the XK3) and full pedals along with the Leslie 3300 and a powered subwoofer. Lots of headroom, full and loud, it's a really fun rig. I connected my laptop's MIDI interface to the MIDI out of the XK3, loaded up Cantible Lite with VB3 running, got everything talking fairly quickly, and connected the 1/4" left output of the C1 interface to the 1/4" of the Leslie. I also had the 11pin connecting the XK3 to the Leslie so I could easily compare the two sound engines. All I had to do was turn down the C1 and turn up the XK3 to hear my normal rig, and likewise turn down the XK3 and turn up the C1 to hear VB3.

 

Well, first and foremost, VB3 ran like a champ. I had the Steinberg latency set at 96 samples. I tried 64 but there were pops and clicks. 96 worked great. The latency was around 9ms, not so bad. The XK3 was definitely faster. The bass pedals worked great, the lower manual worked fine, and I also had that free MIDI mapper so the drawbars controlled VB3 as well.

 

I played the first half of our first set using VB3. The only drag was that it wouldn't correctly respond to the XK3's chorus/vibrato on/off switch, nor and of the percussion switches. Not sure why that was. I tried the MIDI learn function. No dice.

 

Any way, here are my impressions:

 

VB3 has much less bottom end that the Hammond. I had to crank the sub way up to get the same amount of low-end punch from VB3 as I get from the XK3.

 

VB3 has better sounding percussion and key-click.

 

The chorus/vibrato? I preferred the XK3. It was deeper, added more shimmer, and sounded better with the 3300.

 

In terms of playing live? I have to say, I liked the XK3 better. It was more direct, cut through the cymbals better, and the bass was much fuller. I know it sounds crazy and I wasn't expecting it, but that's my honest opinion. VB3 sounds great and is overall more authentic in that it sounds vintage, but the XK3 just cuts. VB3 sounds rather tame in comparison.

 

I'd sum it up this way: VB3 sounds like my old 1954 Hammond C2 with the original tubes. Mellow and warm and a little worn around the edges. The XK3 sounds like my 1974 Hammond B3; bright, muscular, and snappy. Both are perfectly valid, just different flavors.

 

What surprised me the most was how close they sounded in general. The differences I'm talking about are pretty minute. I was expecting a much more obvious difference between the two. Maybe the 3300 is the great equalizer. I should try putting the XK3 through the VB3's Leslie sim and compare them that way.

[Joe Muscara]

Or the Vent?

 

Did you try any of the different "organs" in VB3? I know v2 has ones that are modeled after different organs. What I found in 1.4 was a little different (models after different players/songs) and I haven't dug in further yet.

[mate stubb]

Those aren't models, those are presets. The models are on the system menu, and there are only 3 in 1.4.

[Joe Muscara]

Okay, that's what I wondered. Jim should compare 'em all!

[Ashville.Guru]

Nice report, Jim. Just curious... what specs does your laptop have? Processor, in particular.

[Mitch Towne]

There is a parameter in the VB3 Global Options Menu called "Tonewheel Scaling" that offers a few choices like Mid Boost and Mid Cut. I found that the Mid Boost really helped the VB3 cut through. You might want to try that.

[David Loving]

I need a controller with a jack for an expression pedal. and Jim did you customize your tone wheels for the '70 sound or is that the stock xk3 menu choice?

[allan_evett]

I had a Hammond XK1 a few years back but now use VB3 via a Muse Receptor, driving that from a Motif XF with a set of Voce MIDI Drawbars.

 

The XK1, like the XK3c, had more low-mid punch than I've noticed with VB3. I'll have to try the Mid Boost option, and see how that helps. Thanks for posting that suggestion, Mitch !

 

In a thread from last year Steve Nathan suggested using the PSP Vintage Warmer plug-in on VB3. I used the trial version on a recording project within Logic; it helped a lot - adding a very organic, tube-like quality to the tone. Have considered activating it on the Receptor for live use - as it came with the unit.

[ksoper]

...Steve Nathan suggested using the PSP Vintage Warmer plug-in on VB3. I used the trial version on a recording project within Logic; it helped a lot...

 

I love that plug, but I've never tried it live, only in mix-down. It's a bit of a resource hog on my system. Are you able to get it to work with reasonable latency?

[Jim Alfredson]

Nice report, Jim. Just curious... what specs does your laptop have? Processor, in particular.

 

It's an HP laptop with 8GB of RAM and an i7 processor with (at the time) the biggest on-board cache I could get at 8MB, which is one of the most important stats for real-time audio / video.

 

I think the weak link in the system is the C1, actually. This computer should be able to achieve much lower latencies but I don't think the drivers for the C1 are all that great. I've tried ASIO4ALL and it doesn't work at all with this unit.

 

I need a controller with a jack for an expression pedal. and Jim did you customize your tone wheels for the '70 sound or is that the stock xk3 menu choice?

 

Actually, the XK3 was using my custom tonewheel set based on my 1958 B3. But I replaced the tone generator capacitors in the '58 and it just screams. It'll rip your head off. It's got a lot of high-end. Which was perfect when I was gigging with Root Doctor (loud blues guitarist).

 

And really, there's only so much you can do with customizing the virtual tonewheels in the XK3. It's mainly about adjusting the individual levels of each tonewheel and playing with the amount & EQ of the crosstalk.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on VB3 because I'm not. It sounds great. I really liked how the key-click was much less 'static' than the XK3 and the percussion sounded fantastic, especially in the lower range. Maybe it's because I'm so used to the XK3 (I've been using the XK System since the middle of 2006) but I found myself missing the way it reacts to my playing while playing VB3. Of course, I had to adjust how I play vs a real B3 when I first started using the XK3. I'm sure after a few gigs with VB3, I'd be more comfortable.

 

I'm not apt to put another plug-in inline with it, such as an EQ, because that will only increase latency. I'll play with the different models and tonewheel scaling.

 

The good news is that the rig is stable and will work great for these upcoming gigs in the Florida.

[richwhite9]

I'm not apt to put another plug-in inline with it, such as an EQ, because that will only increase latency. I'll play with the different models and tonewheel scaling.

 

The good news is that the rig is stable and will work great for these upcoming gigs in the Florida.

 

As you said above the Steinberg and driver combo is the likely latency problem. VB3 should run fine at 32 samples. No USB 3.0 from MOTU or others yet?

[HammondDave]

Jim... I know what you're talking about. For my last few live gigs I swapped out my xk3c system for a VB3. The H/S is much more "aggressive" in tone, which allows it to cut through a band mix well. The VB3, though, is much more accurate to a real Hammond... Therefore a bit mellower and subtle in comparison. This is why many feel that the Numa is lacking in balls. It has a very accurate mellow Hammond sound.

 

We have been playing these clones for years, which alters our perception on what sounds "good". After you eat mcDonalds for years you start expecting all hamburgers to taste that crappy.

 

After a few gigs the VB3 felt very good in the mix. Just listen to some of those Mojo videos. Tough to beat that quality.

[Jim Alfredson]

No USB 3.0 in an interface as far as I know and my laptop does have USB 3.0. I can run VB3 at 32 samples on my desktop just fine.

[Jim Alfredson]

We have been playing these clones for years, which alters our perception on what sounds "good". After you eat mcDonalds for years you start expecting all hamburgers to taste that crappy.

 

C'mon man. If you're inferring that the XK series is McDonald's, that's just silly.

 

Here's the rub: People like Jimmy McGriff, Groove Holmes, and Shirley Scott were constantly modifying and messing with their Hammonds to get them to sound how they wanted. McGriff's percussion modifications (which I've been trying to discover for years) are legendary and he also did mods to get more key-click. Holmes used all sorts of string-bass modifications and Shirley, according to the drummer in organissimo Randy Marsh who played with her on the Jimmy Forrest MUSE records date "Heart of the Forrest" spent hours behind the Hammond before the show with a soldering iron.

 

I have yet to hear any clone achieve this:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmLwI4L-aw4

 

But I can get damn close with my XK System by messing with the percussion settings and over-driving the 3300 the right way.

 

The point is, if the XK3 allows you to cut above the band better than even a real B3, isn't that a better solution in that situation?

 

And I've listened to the Mojo videos. They sound really good. Are they better than this? So much better that I should sell my XK System and buy a Mojo? I don't think so.

 

[video:youtube]

 

I use VB3 in the studio all the time, btw. It's great. Much easier than mic'ing up the C2 / 21H.

 

[Dglavko]

Gorgeous playing Jim!

 

I wouldn't change my (your) rig at all if I could make it sound like that.

 

What do you mean by "overdriving the 3300 the right way"?

[Jim Alfredson]

First, replacing the stock 12AX7 with a 12AT7, preferably a NOS RCA or Tung-Sol. Then adjusting the drive settings to achieve your goal. Mine are set so it only starts to really break-up when I really floor the expression pedal, but to get that McGriff tone, you'd need to set it to break-up sooner. You also have to mess with the percussion settings so that it's a bit stronger/louder.

[AnotherScott]

Actually, the XK3 was using my custom tonewheel set based on my 1958 B3.

It may be a little unfair to compare an XK3 system that you've carefully tweaked and optimized to your taste withe the VB3 basically out-of-the-box. If you took some time to also tweak VB3, maybe it would come closer to what you'd like it to be...?

[AnotherScott]

This is why many feel that the Numa is lacking in balls. It has a very accurate mellow Hammond sound.

Mt first real Hammond was a C, circa 1939, it totally screamed. I then "upgraded" to a much later (1950-something?) C2 which added percussion, nicer feeling keys (the old C could make your fingers bleed with the sharp side edges)... but it was definitely more mellow. I ended up selling that one. But yes, it does help explain why we don't always agree on what's more accurate.

[Outkaster]

I don't think he is saying that. Looks like Jim messed with it on his own. That 3300 Leslie alone will blow away most anything.

[David Loving]

I'm using NI's B3 set this afternoon. This is the go to solution when the gig is upstairs!

[Phred]

And I've listened to the Mojo videos. They sound really good. Are they better than this? So much better that I should sell my XK System and buy a Mojo? I don't think so.

 

[video:youtube]

 

That sounds amazing. Beautiful sound, and great performance!!! What drawbars settings are you using for that trombone-like sound?

 

 

 

[allan_evett]

...Steve Nathan suggested using the PSP Vintage Warmer plug-in on VB3. I used the trial version on a recording project within Logic; it helped a lot...

 

I love that plug, but I've never tried it live, only in mix-down. It's a bit of a resource hog on my system. Are you able to get it to work with reasonable latency?

 

Didn't try it live with my Mac at the time, only for mix-down on the Logic recording. Yeah, it was a bit intense on the CPU load in my MacMini. I believe that PSP allows for multi device use; so I plan to put in on my MacBook Pro if I decide to buy it.

My upgraded Receptor came back from Muse last year with PSP VW installed; so I can activate the trial period on that. I'll have the Receptor out on a gig Feb 24th, so I'll activate the plug-in the week prior to that gig, then let you know how it works live.

 

[JeffLearman]

I'm not apt to put another plug-in inline with it, such as an EQ, because that will only increase latency. I'll play with the different models and tonewheel scaling.

That depends on the plugin. Many plugins have zero latency.

[B3Nut]

I'm wild-guessing McGriff was using an ElectroTone Booster, it's a gain stage that plugs into the 12BH7 socket on the AO-28 with an interceptor, and the 12BH7 plugs into that. The cable from that runs to a little chassis with a 12AU7 or 12AX7 on it. I have one in a C-3 my bud and I picked up, but I haven't tinkered with it. I need to dig it out...got me curious.

 

TP

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm pretty sure McGriff did the mod where the drawbar levels don't drop when you engage 'normal' on the percussion, as well. I've never heard of the ElectroTone Booster.

[B3Nut]

It's apparently a rare accessory, I can find maybe one mention in the hamtech archives. I think I'll try and dig it out after I I get back from Florida, heading down there next week for some Olives gigs and beach time.

 

TP

[mate stubb]

I'm pretty sure McGriff did the mod where the drawbar levels don't drop when you engage 'normal' on the percussion, as well. I've never heard of the ElectroTone Booster.

 

I always do this one. Jumper around a resistor on the manual transformer and you are done.

[Jim Alfredson]

So I've been using VB3 for a week now during 5-7 hours rehearsals with the Janiva Magness band in preparation for our upcoming tour. As I detailed in the OP, it's running on my laptop, being controlled by a Novation ReMOTE SL mkII 61 key controller and the B4d (thanks, learjeff!)

 

The good: It's solid as a rock. I'm using Cantible Lite as the VST host and I have no glitches or issues at all regardless of palm smears and the like. The Steinberg C1 is set at 128 sample latency. I'm sure if I got a better interface I could get that down a bit.

 

The tone is great at low volumes, though I would prefer a less vintage sound.

 

The bad: I'm getting eaten alive by the band. It sounds great at low volumes. When we start creeping up in volume, I just get buried. Turning up my volume doesn't help, it just gets muddy, mushy, and messy. Contrast that with the Motif ES rack which cuts through like a knife. Both the Motif & VB3 are running through the same mixer / amp / speaker.

 

Here's the thing... VB3 is cool as hell. The interface is great, the overall tone is great, but it reminds me of one of those old Hammond consoles I run into on the road all the time. You know, the ones that look great, have a nice looking Leslie or two, and sound great by themselves during soundcheck. But then you get going with the band and you have nowhere to go. You realize the rig just has no headroom. Like both the organ and the Leslie need new tubes. The rig just gets buried. I've played enough of those on the road in the last two years that I've actually used my rig (XK3 with Vent and Leslie 21 System) on several occasions in place of the B3 already on stage.

 

In fact, it really reminds me of the rig I had down here in Florida about a year ago at the Tampa Bay Blues Festival. The stage guy was all excited about it, telling me how great a Hammond it was and how the guy who backlined it is this awesome Hammond guy and this and that. And it looked great. Mid-60s B3 with two 145 Leslies. While warming up by myself it sounded fantastic! But as soon as we started our set and that adrenaline kicked in, the drummer and guitarist just buried me completely. I kept signaling the monitor guy to turn the organ up in the monitors for the first three songs, to the point where the mics on the Leslies started feeding back. I had both Leslies cranked and couldn't hear them. I just had NO high-end, no sparkle, no scream. It sucked. I mean, if you're going to have the Leslie running through a fucking monitor, you might as well be playing a clone and running direct through a Vent. Why not?

 

Yes, I've played with all the settings in VB3. It is a really cool organ sound for jazz or mellow stuff like that. But against a raging blues guitarist? I'm just getting my ass kicked. It's too wooly in the low end and not enough high-end to part your hair. It just doesn't have the balls, man. I'm sorry to say it. Maybe it needs an EQ or something. Maybe they should put bass and treble controls within the plug-in itself.

 

Maybe I'm just spoiled by and comfortable with the Hammond Suzuki engine, but I'm just not getting what I want in terms of a live sound to stand toe-to-toe with my bandmates. Yes, I've been playing it for almost 6 years now, but I can get my XK3 to purr or scream at will. It's underneath when it needs to be and I can get right on top when I have to. I love that about my usual rig.

[mate stubb]

Interesting. I haven't taken it live yet, but can hear some of what you say in the basement.

 

I'll watch out for this when I get a chance to hear v2 with the Mojo. I'll be rehearsing in a pretty loud rehearsal space with a 4 piece soon.

[Throbert]

OK you don't have to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm well aware when comes to this but.. I'm thinking you need something on the hardware side for the VB3. Don't know what that would be, I've been looking for some kind of FX preamp maximzer thing myself just for this reason, so I can give my virtuals a more hardware like presence with out screwing the latencey.

 

update

You know I think I answered My own question. A Universal Audio card would probably do the trick and for laptops the UA Apollo, even better when thunderbolt comes out on PC's. Supposedly it will according to Intel. there is no latency issues with these DSP Cards. Also Sonicore would be good option. In my case I already have an Aurora 8 and an ASE16e so I just need a good DSP card.