Gig Rig change dilemma . . . opinions sought.

[Meisenhower]

Hey guys!

 

I'm having a dilemma about my upcoming rig change and what a little feedback from my esteemed forum colleagues. Sorry for the length of the "preamble" but bear with me, as setting up what I want to do and why might help avoid some of the "obvious" suggestions and why I'm nixing them upfront.

 

I'm looking to replace me aging NE2-61, which I use with my CP33 in the funk/soul band that I play in. My bread and butter sounds are B3, Clav, Rhodes, Wurly and AP.

 

At the same time, I am planning on selling my Yamaha Motif ES6 and planned to replace it with a Motif XS rack (as I wanted some updated rompler sounds)

 

Here's the rub.

 

1. I HATE the interface on the Electro 3, to the point that I really won't consider buying one. I'm pretty firm on this.

 

2. I know I don't want the Hammond SK1 at this time, until all the bugs are worked out AND the extra voice library improves. Pretty firm on this too.

 

Now, given that I was going to move to the Motif XS rack AND I need a good Hammond emulation (since I don't carry my XK3 on this gig), I thought that maybe a "good enough" compromise might be the Korg Kronos 61 (and bail entirely on the XS Rack).

 

This would allow me to have latest and greatest rompler sounds, and a pretty good Hammond emulation via the CX3 engine. The question is, will the CX3 engine be "good enough" (with a Ventilator of course) in the context of a 9pc funk band with 4 horns? I won't be using it in any other application and certainly won't use it in my jazz organ trio!!

 

I've not spent enough time with the Kronos to have developed an opinion, but am planning on doing that tomorrow. Here's the other part that makes that Kronos attractive. I can get one for $2,300 and it would meet all my requirements for the 2nd keyboard in this rig (if I can live with the CX3 engine)

 

Aside from the Kurz offerings, am I missing anything?

 

I'm especially interested in opinions from Hammond players that have some experience with the Kronos CX3 engine.

 

Thanks in advance!!

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

My main concern wouldn't necessarily be the CX3 engine (I'm betting it will sound really good through a Vent) but rather the interface. No waterfall keys and tiny sliders for drawbars. I guess it depends on how much you're using the organ.

 

Have you played an SK1?

[Michelle ggurl]

So you are planning on keeping the CP33, correct? Another option I could possibly see is going with one board and making it a Nord Stage 2. Perhaps that interface would be more to your liking? I actually like it for playing acoustic piano as well as all the sound you'd expect from an Electro.

[Meisenhower]

My main concern wouldn't necessarily be the CX3 engine (I'm betting it will sound really good through a Vent) but rather the interface. No waterfall keys and tiny sliders for drawbars. I guess it depends on how much you're using the organ.

 

Have you played an SK1?

 

Yeah, I'm really not a fan of organ playing on non-waterfall keys. The sliderdrawbars are a compromise I could live with (just like I did with the Nord drawbuttons) in the context of this band.

 

I'm on the organ a least 60% of the time in this band.

 

I have played the SK1 (I borrowed a friends and played two gigis with it) and liked it, from the organ perspective, but less so for the Extra Voices. No doubt that in time, that extra voice library will be as good as Nord's, but I'm still not willing to take the leap until all the technical bugs have been worked out.

 

I really don't have time to wait until all the fixes are in and I need a new rompler too, so I was hoping to kill two birds with one stone, IF I can live with the compromises.

[Meisenhower]

So you are planning on keeping the CP33, correct? Another option I could possibly see is going with one board and making it a Nord Stage 2. Perhaps that interface would be more to your liking? I actually like it for playing acoustic piano as well as all the sound you'd expect from an Electro.

 

Yes Michelle, I am planning on keeping the CP33. I thought about the Nord Stage 2, but two things put me off from it.

 

1. I will still need to replace my rompler AND

2. The $3800 price tag (which coupled with the cost of replacing my rompler with a rack, makes it now a $5000 upgrade).

 

I'm also a two keyboard guy at heart in this scenario as I'm not a fan of splits either.

[Moonglow]

Other than acoustic piano (which you have covered with the CP33), does moving from a Motif ES to XS represent a substantial upgrade in rompler sounds?

[eric]

Nord Stage 2

[drawback]

Nord Stage 2

 

Compact.

 

I'd rather play EPs & APs on waterfalls, than organ on weighted keys.

 

 

 

 

[B3_borne]

Nord Stage 2

 

Compact.

 

I'd rather play EPs & APs on waterfalls, than organ on weighted keys.

 

+100000000000000

[Meisenhower]

Other than acoustic piano (which you have covered with the CP33), does moving from a Motif ES to XS represent a substantial upgrade in rompler sounds?

 

No, I was considering replacing the ES6 with the XS rack, simply because I don't care for the ES6 keybed, but do like the overall soundset, It just made sense to me if I'm getting a rack to update to the latest rev (and there was a great deal on one being made available to me). From a cost perspective, I could get an ES rack and accomplish the rompler side of my mission.

 

The Kronos would eliminate the need to move to the XS at all, but I do want to keep one rompler in my arsenal at my disposal.

[resigned]

So the SK1 is so buggy that it's unreliable on stage? I dunno, I've seen a lot of opinions back and forth on the SK1 and it's perceived flaws but nothing really concrete. Without starting another 40-page debate, what specifically is wrong with the SK1? It sounds like the ideal upper tier keyboard to a CP33.

[Moonglow]

I think a CP33 and Kronos 61 would represent a pretty slick rig, but I'm not that fussy regarding action/interface when playing organ, and I really dig the CX-3 engine.....AND you do have "The Great Clone Equalizer" (i.e., a Ventilator).

 

Having a Kronos would add more "new" to your rig than the XF rack option (that general palette of sounds, while excellent, has been around for a while). So your decision largely seems to come down to organ keybed vs. new rompler sounds.

[David Loving]

Ask them on the Casio XW-P1 thread.

[mynameisdanno]

Gonna have to chime in on the Nord Stage 2 Compact. I've had mine for a couple of weeks (use it over a CP300) and I can't imagine any ROMpler covering too many bases that this thing won't.

 

Of course, I'm opposed to ROMplers on principle, and tend to buy special-purpose boards, but the Stage just seems crazy versatile to me so far, without the menu-diving interface woes you get with a ROMpler.

 

What specific sounds do you think you'll need a Motif rack for that the Stage 2 won't cover?

 

[DanL]

In your situation the Kronos seems like the most cost effective upgrade. The CX3 sound is tweakable enough, and thru a vent, it would probably do well in a band context. Plus you could trigger the Kronos pianos and EPs from your CP33.

 

I guess it depends on what you'd need the rompler sounds for too. Something like the Stage 2 compact could be an all in 1 solution.

[ProfD]

I'm also a two keyboard guy at heart in this scenario as I'm not a fan of splits either.

I think a CP33 and Kronos 61 would represent a pretty slick rig...

Providing that the Kronos passes the finger-to-ear test, paired with the CP33, that rig would satisfy the two KB requirement and cover all of the bases.

[AnotherScott]

I HATE the interface on the Electro 3, to the point that I really won't consider buying one. I'm pretty firm on this.

Assuming that the issue is the terrible patch selection implementation, there are actually some very workable fixes for this (as has been discussed ad infinitum on the Nord users forum). There are many MIDI patch selection devices you can use to allow you to get to any patch quickly... foot pedals, iPad apps, tabletop keypad devices, other MIDI control surfaces (some also give you faders that can work as drawbars). True, you shouldn't have to do this, but if that's the only deal-breaker, there are fixes.

 

That said, overall, the Kronos is much more capable than the NE3. I think the only thing you clearly lose is the light weight, and maybe the more direct-manipulation interface. Sonically everything is a judgment call. I'd prefer the Kronos organ, especially since I prefer faders to drawbuttons, and while some people may prefer either organ over the other, I think the Ventilator would make either one satisfying to anyone. I happen to prefer the Korg's EPs and the Nord's APs, but people differ on that too. The Nord has some cool sounds in its sample library, the Korg has tons of other stuff between its PCM sounds and VA synth engines. The Korg has, to me, the better feeling unweighted action (though neither unweighted board is good for piano). And the Korg has splits and layers, and Set List function (the opposite extreme from the Nord in terms of patch selection functionality), and really, just a whole lot of other stuff.

 

If you happen to love a few of your Motif sounds, and they don't depend on real-time processing, you might find you can sample those sounds and bring them into either of those boards, so you don't even have to lose them as part of the transition. It's much easier to do that on the Nord, but the Nord can only sample one velocity layer while the Korg can sample multiple. The Korg also has much larger sample storage capacity.

[Jim Alfredson]

Playing organ on weighted keys sucks. That would eliminate the Stage 2.

 

Since you're replacing an Electro2 and it only does EP, AP, organ, and clav, those are the main sounds you need, right? Seems like a Kronos is overkill as is a Motif, unless you need some of those other sounds (horns, strings, etc.)

 

I would seriously take a second look at the SK1. You can tweak those extra voices, you know. The clavs are killer (better than the Electro), the Rhodes is quite good, the Wurli is decent (not the best, not the worst but can also be tweaked) and of course the organ engine is stellar.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Playing organ on weighted keys sucks. That would eliminate the Stage 2.

The Stage 2 is available unweighted.

 

Since you're replacing an Electro2 and it only does EP, AP, organ, and clav, those are the main sounds you need, right? Seems like a Kronos is overkill

I think he's looking for the Kronos to replace the E2 as well as his older Motif.

 

But regardless, even though a Kronos does a lot more he may not care about, I don't know that I'd call it overkill if it does the things he *does* care about very well... depending on your own preferences, it might actually be better than an E3 at EP, AP, organ, and you can actually split to play two of them at once. The usual argument against "overkill" is about spending more than needed, but at the price he can get a Kronos for, that argument is diminished, too.

[Meisenhower]

First. Thanks for all the really good advice. There were some good ideas bandied about and gave me some additional things to consider, and that's one of the reasons why I love this place!!

 

Ok, here the scoop.

 

I spent the better part of 3 hours with the Kronos this morning, and it really is a superb keyboard in so many areas. While the thrust of my focus was on tweaking the CX3 engine and overall "playability", I also did spend some time with the other "bread and butter" sounds, like the EPs, Clavs and APs. I even dabbled a little with some of the synth engines.

 

In the end, I don't think that Kronos is for me. Here's why?

 

1. The all important "finger to ear" connection never materialized and just didn't feel comfortable playing organ on that keybed. I'm really a waterfall keyboard guy when playing organ, so that was a bit of a deal breaker for me (even though I wish it hadn't been).

 

2. Even with all the ability to tweak the CX3, it still didn't get me as close to where I wanted to be with a Nord or Hammond. While a 3 hour demo may not really be enough to dig into that engine enough to fully maximize the sonic signature I want, but it still left me a little wanting.

 

3. This is likely the big one. I'm really not a workstation/rompler guy (even though I KNOW I need one in my gear pile, but not essential for the funk/soul band's rig). At the heart of it, I don't like menu diving, page scrolling and all that lot that is associated with romplers. I do like having a multitude of high quality sounds in a box, but would really rather have those in a rack and only have to deal with them, on an as needed basis.

 

* drum roll *

 

At this point, I think I'm going to roll the dice on getting a bug free Hammond SK1 and see how that goes. I'm hoping that by now it's been long enough since production started and some of the "noise" about the bugs has been greatly diminished, so perhaps the worst is over. Worst case, if I get a buggy one, I know Hammond will try and make it right.

 

I'm pretty sure I'll still flip my Motif ES6 in favor of getting either an ES or XS Rack for those broader rompler sounds in a small box.

[Steve Force]

Good for you!

[AnotherScott]

In the end, I don't think that Kronos is for me. Here's why?

 

1. The all important "finger to ear" connection never materialized and just didn't feel comfortable playing organ on that keybed. I'm really a waterfall keyboard guy when playing organ, so that was a bit of a deal breaker for me

I don't love the Kronos action for organ either. I don't mind the lack of waterfall, but I think maybe the throw of the key feels too deep. As I mentioned, I am not a fan of the Nord keyboard either, for different reasons. Between the two, I prefer the Korg, but I'm not sure I'd say that if I were playing organ alone, that would be a closer call. I haven't played the SK1 keyboard. I really like the feel of the Rolands, but they have their shortcomings too, including weighing too darn much.

 

Even with all the ability to tweak the CX3, it still didn't get me as close to where I wanted to be with a Nord or Hammond. While a 3 hour demo may not really be enough to dig into that engine enough to fully maximize the sonic signature I want, but it still left me a little wanting.

I still haven't had the chance to play with it as much as I like. "Out of the box," the presets don't seem to sound as good as the actual CX3 organ did. Though, since you intend to use a Ventilator, it's non-Ventilator sounds might not have been the most relevant way to evaluate it for your use...? Nevertheless, it sounds like you came up with a solution that will probably work fine for you with the SK1, good luck!

[drawback]

Guys, I did a gig last month on a backline supplied later-version CX-3 through a 122, and if the Kronos organ engine is the same.... naaah. And synth action only makes matters worse.

 

 

[resigned]

I recently compared a Hammond XK3c and a Korg BX3 (XK3c has the same sound engine as the SK1, BX-3 has the same sound engine as the CX3) and the Hammond sounded far better. I also played the Kronos and I didn't like it, especially for the price. So I'm definitely a Hammond fan but no one here in Atlanta carries an SK1 or SK2 for me to try, so I'm anxious to do so.

 

But the reported problems with the SK1 have kept me from buying one across the web without trying it first. I am very interested in hearing more about whether newer purchasers are happy with their instrument.

[KeyMoe]

I have had my SK1 for a while now and have played 40+ gigs without a single problem. Now I only use it for organ, and the thing sounds great!!!

 

Did a gig this last weekend where the other band's (Roger Creagor Band) keyboard player used a XK3 with a 145 and I used the SK1 with a vent. The SK1 no question sounded better. (although he was a much better player than me)