Pawn Stars!

[whitefang]

I was watching this show a few nights ago(or mornings, depending on which end of 3:00am you are)and in walks this dude who claimed to be Les Paul's nephew with a gorgeous cream colored Les Paul SG model axe he said belonged to his Aunt(who would be Mary Ford). He also had a fat file of documents.

 

The documents were old gig contracts and such, but also included a copy of a letter LP sent to Gibson voicing dissatisfaction at their handling of some of his stuff, and his possibly switching over to another manufacturer.

 

So, the "Pawn Stars" guy had a buddy of his come over to varify the documents, and sure enough, they were on the level! Then he had ANOTHER buddy come and check out the guitar, and HE nearly sh--, uh, SOILED himself when he saw it. It was dandy looking. Played like new, too.

 

I don't know when Gibson stopped considering the SG to be part of the Les Paul line-up, or even if they DID. But the vibe I got from the show was that LP never really DID like the SG design(I'm supposing this was at the time, because the SG became a VERY popular model).

 

Anyway, the upshot was that in spite of how much this guy MIGHT have got at auction, he settled for $88,000!

 

Anybody else seen this?

Whitefang

[The Geoff]

You're right - he didn't like it - too light, but I'm sure I've seen pics of Mary playing a white SG (even tho' it was called an LP at the time).

 

Your guy might have been right enough.

 

G.

[Scott Fraser]

Anyway, the upshot was that in spite of how much this guy MIGHT have got at auction, he settled for $88,000!

 

Figure Christie's or Sotheby's would at least get double what a pawn shop would pay. Why would a family member sell such historically significant & financially valuable stuff to a pawn shop?

[LeftyBlues]

Anyway, the upshot was that in spite of how much this guy MIGHT have got at auction, he settled for $88,000!

 

Figure Christie's or Sotheby's would at least get double what a pawn shop would pay. Why would a family member sell such historically significant & financially valuable stuff to a pawn shop?

 

Guitar = Dodge Viper. Different strokes fer different folks!

[Larryz]

He should have taken it to the Antiques Roadshow...would make a cool episode...not a big fan of the SG's but I'd sure like to see that one...

[Griffinator]

Anyway, the upshot was that in spite of how much this guy MIGHT have got at auction, he settled for $88,000!

 

Figure Christie's or Sotheby's would at least get double what a pawn shop would pay. Why would a family member sell such historically significant & financially valuable stuff to a pawn shop?

 

1) Immediate cash for immediate needs.

 

2) Contrary to popular belief, selling stuff at auction is a high-risk proposition. If the auction house had only managed to get, say, $110K instead of $88K, they still take their 25% commission (and yes, that's standard at someplace like Southeby's), then he has less than what the pawn shop would have paid him, and all he got out of the extra cash was the privilege of waiting several months to get paid.

 

When you hear about what something "could bring at auction" or what it "appraises for" or "books for", you need to understand the fundamentals:

 

1) Auction speculation is exactly that - speculation. There is no guarantee that the right bidders are going to be liquid at the right time for a given piece, because contrary to popular belief, there aren't a huge number of people out there looking for museum-quality vintage LP's and willing to spend six figures to get them.

 

2) "Appraisal" value is a number attached to an item for insurance purposes. Think in terms of MSRP. No one ever actually pays MSRP for anything - it's just a number put out there to start the negotiations.

 

3) "Book" value: See #2. This is, quite literally, a SRP for any given item. When you see price guides for coins or antique glass or lunchboxes or vintage toys, they are publishing the highest known (non-auction) price paid for any given item. You have less than zero chance of actually getting that if you were trying to sell one, unless you have a very, very rare piece and you're willing to wait a very, very long time for the right person to come along and pay that price.

[Scott Fraser]

Anyway, the upshot was that in spite of how much this guy MIGHT have got at auction, he settled for $88,000!

 

Figure Christie's or Sotheby's would at least get double what a pawn shop would pay. Why would a family member sell such historically significant & financially valuable stuff to a pawn shop?

 

1) Immediate cash for immediate needs.

 

Might could be. If the plane with your shipment of Colombian "goods" just touched down at an unmarked strip in central Florida, you'll need liquidity right this minute.

 

2) Contrary to popular belief, selling stuff at auction is a high-risk proposition. If the auction house had only managed to get, say, $110K instead of $88K, they still take their 25% commission (and yes, that's standard at someplace like Southeby's), then he has less than what the pawn shop would have paid him, and all he got out of the extra cash was the privilege of waiting several months to get paid.

 

I would assume that, same as with eBay, a seller can set a minimum price, below which the item is withdrawn, so you get your minimum or it waits until another auction.

 

When you hear about what something "could bring at auction" or what it "appraises for" or "books for", you need to understand the fundamentals:

 

1) Auction speculation is exactly that - speculation. There is no guarantee that the right bidders are going to be liquid at the right time for a given piece, because contrary to popular belief, there aren't a huge number of people out there looking for museum-quality vintage LP's and willing to spend six figures to get them.

 

2) "Appraisal" value is a number attached to an item for insurance purposes. Think in terms of MSRP. No one ever actually pays MSRP for anything - it's just a number put out there to start the negotiations.

 

Does anything ever get bid down, below the starting price? If nobody bites at the starting price do they lower it, or just move on to the next item? They must set a starting price that they could live with if they had to.

 

3) "Book" value: See #2. This is, quite literally, a SRP for any given item. When you see price guides for coins or antique glass or lunchboxes or vintage toys, they are publishing the highest known (non-auction) price paid for any given item. You have less than zero chance of actually getting that if you were trying to sell one, unless you have a very, very rare piece and you're willing to wait a very, very long time for the right person to come along and pay that price.

 

Obviously Mary Ford's SG & Les Paul's communications with Gibson are going to interest a very small part of the population, but I would imagine they would be utterly irresistible for certain young tech CEOs with a music background. They could also make a very desirable tax charitable deduction for some millionaire who might want to donate them to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

[Griffinator]

Actually, Scott, at live auction, the starting price is set by the house, at a place they are reasonably certain people will start bidding.

 

The only thing the seller can do is set a reserve. However, just like E-bay, they're subject to paying a stiff fee (particularly at a high-profile auction like Southeby's or Christie's) if the reserve is not met.

 

Regardless, I'd emphasize the fast money aspect. Dude wouldn't have gone into a pawn shop (even the "famous" Pawn Stars place) if he was willing to wait a few months to get paid. The why is anyone's guess, but he obviously needed money now, not later.

 

*addendum*

 

Just spoke with my wife (far more knowledgeable about the nature of the auction business than I) about the whole Christie's/Southeby's scene, and she actually said they'd be looking at 3-4 months before they actually put the stuff up (to give the auction house time to advertise and turn over their contacts to find people interested) and then another 30-60 days after the auction before they cut the check (minus their commission). Oh, and 25% is a lowball number for those types of places.

 

Basically, the guy could get $88K right now or roll the dice and hope he got a big payoff 6 months from now, though he could just as easily have done no better or possibly even worse, as erratic as the market is right now.

[picker]

Did it have the sideways trem?

[Scott Fraser]

Yeah, I see, that all makes sense. Still, I think if it were me, & it weren't a case of the mortgage being due tomorrow, I would rather have the instrument sit on consignment at Gruhn's or someplace where historically meaningful guitars are sought out.

And I hope the reason the sale happened in the first place was to pass something of value on, clear out space & bank some retirement bucks, & not because a medical emergency required fast cash. Hopefully the right person will find that guitar & value it for the songs that were written & played on it.

 

 

[bbqbob]

I think the appeal is the stacks and stacks of $100 bills That Rick's pawn shop has and will hand out to you immediately if you can reach a deal. As they say, "Cash talks and bullshit walks."

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

That thing was gorgeous.

[ttotsto]

It's a pretty well-documented fact that LP did not like the body style that became known as the SG, and they had a falling-out. Gibson discontinued the Les Paul brand (at the time, SG-style) for several years before re-establishing it in the original single-cut configuration in around 1968. (I still have a '68 LP Custom reissue I bought new.) They have marketed the SG-style continuously since '61, first as Les Paul and then as SG. As far as Pawn Stars, all the comments about auction estimates are spot-on. They are estimates and only valid if there is a willing buyer. I personally would consign it through a Gruhn-type dealer (although Gruhn has driven the prices of "vintage" guitars WAY beyond reasonability) - unless I was desperate for funds. Pawn shops give you less, but give it to you now.

[Lokair]

One other thing to remember that this is TV, and TV is a Lie. I am not saying they did anything that is blatant, like faking the whole thing, no but this guy may have been compensated just for selling it to Ricks. I worked in the wonderful world of tv for 12 years and still do on occasion.

I have seen some of this stuff go down first hand. You need to make it interesting, so you call this guy who may have been shopping the guitar to an auction house. You next go see him and then give him a a free trip to Vegas, some spending cash, and nice limo or rental car. Then feed him into the whole your gonna be on TV line. And if the Deal goes down well now we have good TV, and because he did sell it on TV he is credible with say the next guitar he sells or anything related to Les or Mary in the future.

 

Lok

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

One other thing to remember that this is TV, and TV is a Lie. I am not saying they did anything that is blatant, like faking the whole thing, no but this guy may have been compensated just for selling it to Ricks. I worked in the wonderful world of tv for 12 years and still do on occasion.

I have seen some of this stuff go down first hand. You need to make it interesting, so you call this guy who may have been shopping the guitar to an auction house. You next go see him and then give him a a free trip to Vegas, some spending cash, and nice limo or rental car. Then feed him into the whole your gonna be on TV line. And if the Deal goes down well now we have good TV, and because he did sell it on TV he is credible with say the next guitar he sells or anything related to Les or Mary in the future.

 

Lok

 

Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Think about it....look at all the extremely rare and one-of-a-kind items and very significant historical documents and artifacts that come through that one little pawn shop..... really????? Give me a break. And that Rick character....he knows more about these historical documents and things than a historian.... really???? That show is a joke....so is that other one...I think it's called "Hardcore Pawn". I'd like to ring that girl's neck on there. She is easlily one of the most obnoxious people I've ever seen on TV...well, it's a tossup between her, Roseanne Barr,and Rosie O'Donnell and that monster with all the tattoos and nose rings and lip rings and eyebrow rings on that repo show whatever the name of it is.

 

But...the SG was a beauty.

[Bluesape]

"and that monster with all the tattoos and nose rings and lip rings and eyebrow rings" http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/reifspano/Guitars/Sas/Sas2.jpg

 

 

 

All that metal makes 'em trickier to filet, right? http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/reifspano/Smileys/lol-045.gif

[whitefang]

Did it have the sideways trem?

If memory serves, it didn't have a tremelo at all.

 

Living in the Detroit area, I'm familiar with the "Hardcore Pawn" shop.One of my nephew's went there with his Dad recently, and that guy who runs the place couldn't be nicer! he also didn't have much good to say about "Pawn Stars"

Whitefang

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Yeah, all that metal will dull a knife in a heartbeat....not to mention breaking your teeth on them.

[Sharkman]

Lokair, a longtime friend of mine and his dad are in the pawn business (his dad was on tv once as one of those "experts" who was brought in for an opinion for some reality show). My friend told me that a lot of what you see on tv is staged and rehearsed, so don't believe everything you see on those shows.